These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Regarding AFK Complex Farming

First post First post
Author
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#161 - 2012-08-09 15:53:28 UTC
Brokers Clone wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Brokers Clone wrote:
...Stuff...
Wait
Watch rats spawn
See drones kill rats...
get bounty
etc...etc...etc...


Except that he stated mining then used ratting as an example, which would certainly still be detected and fall into the same category.


WOW.

Dude, I am beginning to think that this is an issue that is going to need CSM input.. I mean.... there are LOTS of cases where Rats spawn.... and lots of people sit and wait (at PC or away)

There are mining ships that mine all day long, unattended (with alts or team members lugging away can contents from time to time)

If ANY of this, NON-BOTTING, Activity is going to change, Fine
BUT YOU NEED TO SAY SO IN 70 point Font, Everywhere
And I think you might want to ring the CSM


And none of them fall within this category. Feel free to alert the CSM.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#162 - 2012-08-09 15:53:40 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselSA
CCP Sreegs wrote:

You can say that you prefer that we allow people to AFK farm complexes with sentry drones 24 hours a day and that's a position we'd disagree with, but it's a position.

It's really hard to respond with facts to completely made up scenarios so if we're to have a dialogue of this sort at any point in the future hopefully we can stick to what actually happened instead of how you've decided in your head the process went or how the reporting structure works.

I don't really. I do have a problem with an automated system going rogue and banning people for things that are different than what it is supposed to ban people for, and that failure being redefined into a success. The proper method for dealing with this exists and I want that used both now and in the future.

If a GM had come out and said "we've investigated this and decided it shouldn't be allowed anymore", that'd be one thing. That happens - for example, pos bowling was legitimate and then after human review people decided it was a bad mechanic that needed to be banned until it was patched out. But players in that circumstance should have the ability to deal with a GM just like anyone doing anything else on the edge of the game rules but without violating the bots/hacks/macros/rmt rules.

And those rules should be thought about ahead of time (by humans) and then applied prospectively.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#163 - 2012-08-09 15:56:43 UTC
Octoven wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:


And how many times have you been banned for this?


Obviously he hasnt been banned any since this new policy hasnt been implemented before today so why should he be banned? Yes, I see it the same way. I mean your account can sit there for 24 hours ratting belts and do nothing else. Just tank up and set the drones out on aggressive. Now your making bounty you can go out and have a dinner and a movie, do some shopping. I mean your making money on a mechanic that is never designed for passive income, should this be a bannable offense as well?


Anyone who was performing the activity I'm referring to in the news item has most likely already been banned for doing so. Another item about the belt ratting bit is that in the scenario you paint the amount of income gained is basically nothing. In the scenario we're specifically discussing in this thread you are making a lot more money. By a factor of a whole bunch.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#164 - 2012-08-09 15:57:38 UTC
I think that some people are taking this way too far. Don't be ridiculous with your assumptions people. I support CCP's better judgement here. No one could possibly play 24hours straight and be at the keyboard the whole time. Unless you have your laptop on the counter in the kitchen and using a bucket as a toilet.

This doesn't affect me, and a big LOL at the people who it does affect. GAME ON!
CARB0N FIBER
Derailleurs
#165 - 2012-08-09 15:57:43 UTC
If we're not altering the game, we're not doing anything wrong.

CCP designed drones. CCP designed plexes. We pay to use them. CCP bans us for using them!

I just don't get how you can keep banning people for playing the game. This isn't the first and it wont be the last time time you pull somethingf like this.












EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#166 - 2012-08-09 15:58:32 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Anyone who was performing the activity I'm referring to in the news item has most likely already been banned for doing so. Another item about the belt ratting bit is that in the scenario you paint the amount of income gained is basically nothing. In the scenario we're specifically discussing in this thread you are making a lot more money. By a factor of a whole bunch.

What amount of money changes NotBotting into Botting, given the exact same use of game mechanics?
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#167 - 2012-08-09 15:59:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
When I was ready to build my first battlecruiser I grabbed a Bestower, fitted a T1 mining laser to it, activated it on a huge Veldspar asteroid and went to sleep. The next morning I had enough Tritanium to start the production job.

Guess it's time to hand myself in for botting?
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#168 - 2012-08-09 16:00:10 UTC
CARB0N FIBER wrote:
If we're not altering the game, we're not doing anything wrong.

CCP designed drones. CCP designed plexes. We pay to use them. CCP bans us for using them!

I just don't get how you can keep banning people for playing the game. This isn't the first and it wont be the last time time you pull somethingf like this.




Quick! Get back on the handle!

You keep flying off of it, and I don't think you know where you're going!

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

BrianOfNazerath
Anomaly 13
#169 - 2012-08-09 16:02:27 UTC
So i am not allowed to go afk in a plex, while mining, or hell going AFk at all while logged in or i am going to get banned for it?
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#170 - 2012-08-09 16:02:46 UTC
Lord Helghast wrote:
If this is the case does that finally mean AFK Cloaking is also going to be an offense since it is affecting the game while completely away from the computer?


AFK cloaking is not an isk generating activity. where do you people learn how to make comparisons? It's like those kids in pre-school who keep trying to shove that square into a round hole Roll
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#171 - 2012-08-09 16:04:06 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

You can say that you prefer that we allow people to AFK farm complexes with sentry drones 24 hours a day and that's a position we'd disagree with, but it's a position.

It's really hard to respond with facts to completely made up scenarios so if we're to have a dialogue of this sort at any point in the future hopefully we can stick to what actually happened instead of how you've decided in your head the process went or how the reporting structure works.

I don't really. I do have a problem with an automated system going rogue and banning people for things that are different than what it is supposed to ban people for, and that failure being redefined into a success. The proper method for dealing with this exists and I want that used both now and in the future.

If a GM had come out and said "we've investigated this and decided it shouldn't be allowed anymore", that'd be one thing. That happens - for example, pos bowling was legitimate and then after human review people decided it was a bad mechanic that needed to be banned until it was patched out. But players in that circumstance should have the ability to deal with a GM just like anyone doing anything else on the edge of the game rules but without violating the bots/hacks/macros/rmt rules.

And those rules should be thought about ahead of time (by humans) and then applied prospectively.


If I'm reading what you're saying here correctly you're presuming that we haven't already gone over this internally. The system is doing precisely what it's supposed to do. The GMs are aware and were a part of this decision. Human people have reviewed each of the instances where this has already occurred. This instance fit within those rules because... IT ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPENING IT IS NOT NORMAL AND IT IS EVEN SPELLED OUT IN THE EULA AS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

The only difference between now and the halcyon days of yesteryear is that when I tell you something's bad I can actually monitor it to make sure you're not doing it with some accuracy. There may very well be other exploitable conditions in the future that will fall within this same ideal. Detecting bad activity is detecting bad activity. I don't really see how it's relevant that a particular system alerted us to the anomaly, regardless of its function. If we WERE measuring for this then we wouldn't have had to make this news item because it would already have been made.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Eli Green
The Arrow Project
#172 - 2012-08-09 16:04:27 UTC
What about trading? you don't even have to be logged in, yet you can be making huge amounts of isk every day. Does this go against your (CCPs) concept of AFK passive isk making as?

wumbo

arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#173 - 2012-08-09 16:05:28 UTC
BrianOfNazerath wrote:
So i am not allowed to go afk in a plex, while mining, or hell going AFk at all while logged in or i am going to get banned for it?


look at all these Scott Tenormans!

go re-read his announcement
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#174 - 2012-08-09 16:06:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Sreegs
EvilweaselSA wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Anyone who was performing the activity I'm referring to in the news item has most likely already been banned for doing so. Another item about the belt ratting bit is that in the scenario you paint the amount of income gained is basically nothing. In the scenario we're specifically discussing in this thread you are making a lot more money. By a factor of a whole bunch.

What amount of money changes NotBotting into Botting, given the exact same use of game mechanics?


Instead of inventing words that we don't use internally and applying them to your own perception of what we're looking at let's ask about behavior which is what we usually talk about publically. In that case behavior which leads to no tangible benefit is acceptable.

It's not about botting. It just so happens that this is the discussion we're usually having when we're talking about this type of behavior.

:edit: In this case someone was making significant income running their PC 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The system designed to detect that did. Enter news item.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Octoven
Noir Holdings
#175 - 2012-08-09 16:07:24 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Octoven wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:


And how many times have you been banned for this?


Obviously he hasnt been banned any since this new policy hasnt been implemented before today so why should he be banned? Yes, I see it the same way. I mean your account can sit there for 24 hours ratting belts and do nothing else. Just tank up and set the drones out on aggressive. Now your making bounty you can go out and have a dinner and a movie, do some shopping. I mean your making money on a mechanic that is never designed for passive income, should this be a bannable offense as well?


Anyone who was performing the activity I'm referring to in the news item has most likely already been banned for doing so. Another item about the belt ratting bit is that in the scenario you paint the amount of income gained is basically nothing. In the scenario we're specifically discussing in this thread you are making a lot more money. By a factor of a whole bunch.


Well you cant very well say that I mean you cant place a monetary value on AFKing. Especially after you blatantly stated,

"The activity itself falls within the same philosophical context we place botting within. I get it you don't like it. You can't change that however. With botting we concern ourselves with more than the technical limitations but rather what types of behavior and automation we find unacceptable."

Essentially the ideology of AFKing is to generate profit. Granted its small amounts; however, it still falls under the same philosophical idea. The moment you blurred the lines between botting and AFK actions is the moment that idea became more prevalent to apply to all forms of AFK income.
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#176 - 2012-08-09 16:08:09 UTC
Eli Green wrote:
What about trading? you don't even have to be logged in, yet you can be making huge amounts of isk every day. Does this go against your (CCPs) concept of AFK passive isk making as?


Go re-read the announcement
Suqq Madiq
#177 - 2012-08-09 16:08:32 UTC
Damion Rayne wrote:
I honestly and whole hardheartedly believe you have NO clue what you're doing. I'm going to go out on a limb here and publicly denounce pretty much everything you say. I run plexes in 0.0 when I was in Test and Dark Rising and you are now effectively telling me that running those plexs with a drone boat, and going afk, is against the rules? I've got NO confidence in you as a Dev Sreegs, None.


You're, quite frankly, an idiot.

This ruling in no way affects what you do in 0.0 while running PLEXes in the safety of your Sov under the comforting blankie of Intel networks. This is specifically about High-sec STATIC PLEXes that continuously spawn NPCs and can be farmed 100% AFK from DT to DT.

Try not to be so intentionally clueless and obtuse if you choose to post again in this thread which, clearly, would just make you look dumber.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#178 - 2012-08-09 16:08:46 UTC
Octoven wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Octoven wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:


And how many times have you been banned for this?


Obviously he hasnt been banned any since this new policy hasnt been implemented before today so why should he be banned? Yes, I see it the same way. I mean your account can sit there for 24 hours ratting belts and do nothing else. Just tank up and set the drones out on aggressive. Now your making bounty you can go out and have a dinner and a movie, do some shopping. I mean your making money on a mechanic that is never designed for passive income, should this be a bannable offense as well?


Anyone who was performing the activity I'm referring to in the news item has most likely already been banned for doing so. Another item about the belt ratting bit is that in the scenario you paint the amount of income gained is basically nothing. In the scenario we're specifically discussing in this thread you are making a lot more money. By a factor of a whole bunch.


Well you cant very well say that I mean you cant place a monetary value on AFKing. Especially after you blatantly stated,

"The activity itself falls within the same philosophical context we place botting within. I get it you don't like it. You can't change that however. With botting we concern ourselves with more than the technical limitations but rather what types of behavior and automation we find unacceptable."

Essentially the ideology of AFKing is to generate profit. Granted its small amounts; however, it still falls under the same philosophical idea. The moment you blurred the lines between botting and AFK actions is the moment that idea became more prevalent to apply to all forms of AFK income.


Nothing has changed about our philosophy as regards what we are or aren't looking for behavior-wise.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Naomi Shana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#179 - 2012-08-09 16:14:14 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Anyone who was performing the activity I'm referring to in the news item has most likely already been banned for doing so. Another item about the belt ratting bit is that in the scenario you paint the amount of income gained is basically nothing. In the scenario we're specifically discussing in this thread you are making a lot more money. By a factor of a whole bunch.


So the concern really isn't that people are using the tools given to them by the game design to make isk, it's that they're making a lot of isk doing it.

You just keep digging the hole deeper and deeper. I highly suggest back off your position and fix the problem in the game mechanics instead of making threats about banning non-botters and scaring the crap out of everyone.

Every single person who has ever walked away from their computer while running the game, for any length of time or reason, read your news article and said, "What?!"

And then they come here and read that CCP would rather make non-specific threats and varied explanations (is the issue afk isk or lots of afk isk?) as to why this is being done instead of simply fixing the problem where it started: in the code.

Less Godzilla, more diplomacy.

Let me help:

"Hit there, this is CCP. We're turning off a few high-sec missions while we adjust the code, sorry for the inconvenince."

And if you can't simply turn them off while fixing them, then let the problem continue until you do fix it. You caused the problem, it's not causing any huge issues, what's the big deal if some afk'ers make a few more iskies until you can roll out the fix? It's certainly 100x better than the customer relations problem you're causing by going this route.
Octoven
Noir Holdings
#180 - 2012-08-09 16:14:43 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nothing has changed about our philosophy as regards what we are or aren't looking for behavior-wise.


The philosophy hasn't changed, only the areas by which that philosophy governs has been changed. Botting and Exploiting are zero tolerance actions, as such by including one form of AFK income generation you have to include it all. Failure to do this results in questioning what types of botting are acceptable. CCP has banned botting and by doing so banned all forms of botting, thus if you banned AFKing for huge profits you have to do it all the way round.

Right now your cutting off the arm to save the patient but you arent stopping the bleeding.