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CSM Minutes: Offgrid boosting.
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Pax Thar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2012-08-09 22:53:44 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
David Devant wrote:
I will hand you your arse any day of the week mate.

I don't doubt it. Not only am I bad at PvP, but I also do not have boosts.



Boosts are required for solo pvp, havent you heard? No second acct no solo for you.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#42 - 2012-08-09 23:13:10 UTC
David Devant wrote:
I have a booster alt and I like it. Sure it's given be the advantage in "1v1s" (boo hoo), but it's also given me the confidence to throw ships in to daft situations (and loose). T3s vastly broadened the envelope of possibility for solo and small gang warfare.

Regardless of how much you might disagree, you're all mental if you think CCP will remove off-grid boosters. "I know, let's make it so lots of people unsub their second account!" :eye roll:



It does not open the possibilitys for solo. Using 2 ships in a fight is not solo any more than dual boxing 2 dps ships is solo. It looks like your solo on your killboard but your not.

As far as people unsubbing a second account I think ccp would gain accounts. No one really wants to sign up for "alts online." Having to dual box not only ruins the immersion it turns the game into a chore.

The offgrid boosters give such huge benefits its crazy. I am actually almost done with one myself so I can be competitive. I haven't used it yet but really I am dreading using it. Between alt scanning scouts, and alt boosters, this game is getting less and less fun.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#43 - 2012-08-10 02:22:14 UTC
David Devant
CTRL-Q
Ushra'Khan
#44 - 2012-08-10 06:58:21 UTC
I think you'll like it Cearain seeing as you get ganked so often. To be fair to you people, I can see why you're pissed as you feel you have to pay 2x as much to be competitive in a 1v1. I just think that as the game currently stands this would make few vs many pvp a lot harder and encourage meat grinder nonsense. As for "you're not solo", I don't really care and would be happy for boosts to show on my mails, hence my quite publicly declaring this unpopular view. I just like good pvp, and what ever you say, boosts often do facilitate this.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#45 - 2012-08-10 07:40:44 UTC
Small gang roams were knocking around the blob a long time before T3 Boosts existed. It's gonna be ok Bubba.
Lugalzagezi666
#46 - 2012-08-10 08:37:33 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Small gang roams were knocking around the blob a long time before T3 Boosts existed. It's gonna be ok Bubba.


In ctrl-q case "blobs were blobing solo targets just fine long time before offgrid boosting" would be more appropriate. Lol
Whisperen
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#47 - 2012-08-10 08:46:14 UTC
Of course you should be able to boost from inside a POS shield! If you do not like that advantage man up! Use the tools at your disposal and destroy the POS! This is just lazy people wanting the reward of limiting enemy boosters without the risk of getting a fleet together to take out a POS.

If your opponent is willing to take the risk and deploy infrastructure to gain a tactical advantage then that risk should be rewarded.
David Devant
CTRL-Q
Ushra'Khan
#48 - 2012-08-10 09:29:23 UTC  |  Edited by: David Devant
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Small gang roams were knocking around the blob a long time before T3 Boosts existed. It's gonna be ok Bubba.


In ctrl-q case "blobs were blobing solo targets just fine long time before offgrid boosting" would be more appropriate. Lol


Yeh Lugalz, your blob. Booya! P
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
#49 - 2012-08-10 10:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Yuri Intaki
Whisperen wrote:
Of course you should be able to boost from inside a POS shield! If you do not like that advantage man up! Use the tools at your disposal and destroy the POS! This is just lazy people wanting the reward of limiting enemy boosters without the risk of getting a fleet together to take out a POS.

If your opponent is willing to take the risk and deploy infrastructure to gain a tactical advantage then that risk should be rewarded.


Because obviously POS towers are hideously expensive, die immediately without inconvinient rf timers and most solar systems have only 1-2 moons where you can deploy such towers...

Note: The text above is written with a tongue firmly in the cheeck.
Cellethen
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2012-08-10 10:29:30 UTC
Ships that are not at risk should not be contributing to an engagement.
Dynast
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#51 - 2012-08-10 14:23:30 UTC
Remove all off-grid boosting IMO. You want a ship to impact the fight, you put that **** in the fight. If you want the substantial advantages that gang links offer, that asset should be a viable target in the fight -- not an asset placed safely behind pos shields, or sitting in a safespot 50AU away.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#52 - 2012-08-10 14:48:41 UTC
David Devant wrote:
I think you'll like it Cearain seeing as you get ganked so often. .


I don't mind the ganks. Minmatar need to feel good about themselves and if ganks are all they can achieve in pvp that is ok. Goals should accord with ability. P

But as a frequent solo pilot in faction war it would be nice if the blob wasn't quite so fast to catch up to me due to thier offgrid booster. And it would be nice if the blobs points didn't stretch so far and lock so fast due to thier off grid booster.


David Devant wrote:

To be fair to you people, I can see why you're pissed as you feel you have to pay 2x as much to be competitive in a 1v1. I just think that as the game currently stands this would make few vs many pvp a lot harder and encourage meat grinder nonsense. .


As gangs get larger they are more likely to have off grid boosts. They tend to be much more serious than the small groups who just want to jump in a ship and shoot people.

David Devant wrote:
As for "you're not solo", I don't really care and would be happy for boosts to show on my mails, hence my quite publicly declaring this unpopular view. I just like good pvp, and what ever you say, boosts often do facilitate this.


In theory I really do not mind the boosts. I do like the added layer they add to how you can fit your ship. I just hate the idea of having to dual box an alt. It turns eve into a chore and pvp is supposed to be the fun part of the game.

Give me a crew that I can buy that matches what a booster offers and I will be fine. I don't mind that it might cost more isk in the long run. (as long as it is not ridiculous - perhaps in line with tech 2 mods) I recomended that ccp just make different racial crews you can buy to match the racial boosts. They would die with the ship. They could add academies to pi or something.

Am I pissed that I have to pay 2xs as much to be competive in pvp? I guess its "pay to win" and I am sure lots of people are upset by that. But thats not really my issue. I am just not interested in playing "alts online." So until ccp either changes things or gives an alternative (like the crew option) I am not so thrilled with eve.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Karah Serrigan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2012-08-10 14:49:44 UTC
Cellethen wrote:
Ships that are not at risk should not be contributing to an engagement.

What you mean not at risk. Theres always the risk that someone probes you down.
With that argumentation people shouldnt fly covops scouts, they contribute to the engagement by giving you intel but never decloak so no risk?
And the same for titanbridges, the titan makes it possible, ergo contributes to the engagement but never leaves the pos which is 20j away.
Whats with neutral orcas on highsec gates that scoop t3s and jump out? Whats with logis on a station?
Dynast
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#54 - 2012-08-10 15:00:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dynast
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Cellethen wrote:
Ships that are not at risk should not be contributing to an engagement.

What you mean not at risk. Theres always the risk that someone probes you down.
With that argumentation people shouldnt fly covops scouts, they contribute to the engagement by giving you intel but never decloak so no risk?
And the same for titanbridges, the titan makes it possible, ergo contributes to the engagement but never leaves the pos which is 20j away.
Whats with neutral orcas on highsec gates that scoop t3s and jump out? Whats with logis on a station?

Titan bridges are terrible. Neutral orcas scooping t3s are terrible. Indefinite stealth invulnerability is terrible. There are a lot of really bad mechanics in EVE, designed by devs who either don't play or only play as part of nullbear alliances that won't fight a rifter without at least two full squads.

Edit: and "at risk of being probed down" is a rediculously small risk in practice, factoring in the sensor strengths you can achieve on t3s. It's quite easy to only be probe-able by grav cap fit covops with implants. With the only window of opportunity being actual engagements (you're safely cloaked and effectively invulnerable the rest of the time) there is negligible risk.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#55 - 2012-08-10 16:47:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Cearain wrote:
I don't mind the ganks. Minmatar need to feel good about themselves and if ganks are all they can achieve in pvp that is ok. Goals should accord with ability. P

As an evil blobbing Minmatar, I should point out that I have never, ever, ever been blobbed by [I.LAW]. Ever. Nope.

The "but it can be probed down" excuse that offgrid boosts are balanced is on even worse footing than the "but you can fit ECCM" excuse that ECM is balanced in small gangs. In a small gang, particularly of sub-BC ships with limited slots/fittings, you can't afford to gimp every ship by fitting ECCM to it just in the event you run into a Falcon. That is, with the chance that the Falcon will jam you anyway, because ECM is the only ewar which can't be completely mitigated by flying better. But that's another issue.

In the same way, you can't afford to sacrifice one of your higher-skilled and richer pilots (for a covops ship, great scanning skills, and a Virtue set) just in the event that he maybe might be able to probe down that neutral Loki... which might just warp away. In large engagements/fleets, it's completely reasonable. In smaller ones, not so much.

On top of that, this doesn't even take into account:

  • Boosting from a POS
  • Boosting from a station
  • Boosting from a gate - particularly if equipped with MWD/Cloak
  • Neutral boosting in hisec - try countering that one
  • Neutral boosting in lowsec - whose booster is that? Is it just an AFK guy in a POS?
  • Cloak-MWD trick elsewhere in space, or just covert T3; maybe toss in interdiction-nullified in there.
  • So many people in system that you can't reliably tell whose booster it is

Or any number of ways that mitigate the risk of being scanned down, on top of making your boosting ship incredibly hard to scan down (via sensor strength, etc).

The only other thing as safe as this is neutral scouting - which is actually just a subset of the roles that an offgrid boosting alt can fulfill. Neutral scouting is balanced. Offgrid boosting is not.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#56 - 2012-08-10 18:47:37 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I don't mind the ganks. Minmatar need to feel good about themselves and if ganks are all they can achieve in pvp that is ok. Goals should accord with ability. P

As an evil blobbing Minmatar, I should point out that I have never, ever, ever been blobbed by [I.LAW]. Ever. Nope.

The "but it can be probed down" excuse that offgrid boosts are balanced is on even worse footing than the "but you can fit ECCM" excuse that ECM is balanced in small gangs. In a small gang, particularly of sub-BC ships with limited slots/fittings, you can't afford to gimp every ship by fitting ECCM to it just in the event you run into a Falcon. That is, with the chance that the Falcon will jam you anyway, because ECM is the only ewar which can't be completely mitigated by flying better. But that's another issue.

In the same way, you can't afford to sacrifice one of your higher-skilled and richer pilots (for a covops ship, great scanning skills, and a Virtue set) just in the event that he maybe might be able to probe down that neutral Loki... which might just warp away. In large engagements/fleets, it's completely reasonable. In smaller ones, not so much.

On top of that, this doesn't even take into account:

  • Boosting from a POS
  • Boosting from a station
  • Boosting from a gate - particularly if equipped with MWD/Cloak
  • Neutral boosting in hisec - try countering that one
  • Neutral boosting in lowsec - whose booster is that? Is it just an AFK guy in a POS?
  • Cloak-MWD trick elsewhere in space, or just covert T3; maybe toss in interdiction-nullified in there.
  • So many people in system that you can't reliably tell whose booster it is

Or any number of ways that mitigate the risk of being scanned down, on top of making your boosting ship incredibly hard to scan down (via sensor strength, etc).

The only other thing as safe as this is neutral scouting - which is actually just a subset of the roles that an offgrid boosting alt can fulfill. Neutral scouting is balanced. Offgrid boosting is not.


Most of these questions can be solved by proper scouting and intel cathering.
You are one of those who want that CCP does all scouting for you.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#57 - 2012-08-10 19:01:42 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:

Most of these questions can be solved by proper scouting and intel cathering.
You are one of those who want that CCP does all scouting for you.

What questions?

How do you kill or counter a Loki that is sitting on a POS or station? How do I counter a Loki booster in hisec without getting Concorded? Is the neutral SuperDuperBooster99 in local a troll with a funny name, a Loki booster for the guys I'm about to fight, or an AFK Loki booster for someone who is away elsewhere?

If you see a Loki on scan, do you hold off and not fight for 10 minutes while you manage to scan it down, scout it out, and figure out whose it is, or figure out how to get it off the field? Additionally, do your targets just sit there dumbfounded, or do they kill you or simply leave during that time?

Or, more to the point: Could you exemplify how "scouting" can mitigate the near-complete safety that neutral off-grid boosters get, or are you just trolling?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#58 - 2012-08-10 19:10:25 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I don't mind the ganks. Minmatar need to feel good about themselves and if ganks are all they can achieve in pvp that is ok. Goals should accord with ability. P

As an evil blobbing Minmatar, I should point out that I have never, ever, ever been blobbed by [I.LAW]. Ever. Nope.

The "but it can be probed down" excuse that offgrid boosts are balanced is on even worse footing than the "but you can fit ECCM" excuse that ECM is balanced in small gangs. In a small gang, particularly of sub-BC ships with limited slots/fittings, you can't afford to gimp every ship by fitting ECCM to it just in the event you run into a Falcon. That is, with the chance that the Falcon will jam you anyway, because ECM is the only ewar which can't be completely mitigated by flying better. But that's another issue.

In the same way, you can't afford to sacrifice one of your higher-skilled and richer pilots (for a covops ship, great scanning skills, and a Virtue set) just in the event that he maybe might be able to probe down that neutral Loki... which might just warp away. In large engagements/fleets, it's completely reasonable. In smaller ones, not so much.

On top of that, this doesn't even take into account:

  • Boosting from a POS
  • Boosting from a station
  • Boosting from a gate - particularly if equipped with MWD/Cloak
  • Neutral boosting in hisec - try countering that one
  • Neutral boosting in lowsec - whose booster is that? Is it just an AFK guy in a POS?
  • Cloak-MWD trick elsewhere in space, or just covert T3; maybe toss in interdiction-nullified in there.
  • So many people in system that you can't reliably tell whose booster it is

Or any number of ways that mitigate the risk of being scanned down, on top of making your boosting ship incredibly hard to scan down (via sensor strength, etc).

The only other thing as safe as this is neutral scouting - which is actually just a subset of the roles that an offgrid boosting alt can fulfill. Neutral scouting is balanced. Offgrid boosting is not.


Most of these questions can be solved by proper scouting and intel cathering.
You are one of those who want that CCP does all scouting for you.


I am not interested in getting a "scanning alt" to counter the "booster alts" if that is what you mean.

But yeah scouting/roaming around for hours looking for something to kill is boring. Pretty much every aspect of eve pvp requires this, and its too bad. It would be nice if eve had some part of the game that had a bit faster paced pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-08-10 21:32:59 UTC
its pretty much mostly the T3s effect on boosting thats made this a problem, very hard to scan, covops, bubble immune fits (with probes too somtimes).

Remove t3s ability to do this and we all go back to CS boosts, which by their nature require a safe spot, logistic help or a pos to do their thing. I dont see theres anything wrong for a defender or prepared attacker to make a safe place for a CS and thats EVE all over.

Just jumping into any system with your scout t3, warping to a planet making an ss, warp to ss and put on links/eccm - job done. FAR to easy.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2012-08-10 21:41:12 UTC
Offgrid boosting is a ******** mechanic only added to the game to enable more accounts and thus more artificial "playerbase" for income.

Offgrid boosting should be removed and only ongrid boosting should work. Then it would be fair and ok.

Now to be "leet pvper" you need to have a mandatory t3 booster shadowing you where ever you go... talk about a great and fun addition to the game.

If you want to think it the RP way ... How can you boost the fleets movement and other functions via extra computing power from a ship thats far away causing transmission delay on the data etc etc. Atleast when its ongrid it makes sense that the ship is providing boost via enhanced battlefield calculations etc etc.