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My take on the "This game is going carebear, I'm quitting!" attitude as of late.
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Pipa Porto
#101 - 2012-08-08 02:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Lilianna Star wrote:
Russell Casey wrote:


If you're a miner, you go where the asteroids are.

If you're a ratter, you go where the rats are.

If you're an explorer, you go where the anoms are.

If you're a mission runner, you go where the agents are.

If you're a trader, you go where the markets are.

If you're a pirate, you go where the clueless people with lots of cash are.


My last excursion to Goonswarm territory didn't have any pirates in it.


That's cause the GSF isn't really a Pirate empire. They're a Nation, they've declared war on a type of ship, and the Gankers they've hired are Privateers in that war.

EDIT: We even have a Themesong. (It may need some work...)


Void!
Quake!
Fusion!
EMP!
Conflag? (Mati...)

GO BLASTERS!

With your powers combined I am Captain Asteroid!

Captain Asteroid, he's our hero,
Gonna take the miners down to zero,
He's our Blasters overheated,
And he's fighting on the astroid side

Captain Asteroid, he's our hero,
Gonna take the miners down to zero,
Gonna help him put asunder,
Miners who like to strip the belts

"You'll pay for this Captain Asteroid!"

(chanting)
We're the Privateers,
You can be one too!
'Cause saving the belts is the thing to do,
Mining and Canning is not the way,
Hear what Captain Asteroid has to say:

"THE BLASTERS ARE YOURS!!"

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#102 - 2012-08-08 02:19:34 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
Russell Casey wrote:


If you're a miner, you go where the asteroids are.

If you're a ratter, you go where the rats are.

If you're an explorer, you go where the anoms are.

If you're a mission runner, you go where the agents are.

If you're a trader, you go where the markets are.

If you're a pirate, you go where the clueless people with lots of cash are.


My last excursion to Goonswarm territory didn't have any pirates in it.


That's cause the GSF isn't really a Pirate empire. They're a Nation, they've declared war on a type of ship, and the Gankers they've hired are Privateers in that war.


I know.

Big smile
Pipa Porto
#103 - 2012-08-08 02:26:58 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:


My last excursion to Goonswarm territory didn't have any pirates in it.


That's cause the GSF isn't really a Pirate empire. They're a Nation, they've declared war on a type of ship, and the Gankers they've hired are Privateers in that war.


I know.

Big smile



Hey, you know what... that gives me an idea.

There's nothing stopping the miners from organizing rewards for Privateers willing to go disrupt Goonswarm's activities in their own space, is there? Or going there themselves to disrupt Goonswarm's activities?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Soundwave Plays Diablo
Doomheim
#104 - 2012-08-08 02:28:12 UTC
Plaude Pollard wrote:
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
DMG 1 is the bible IMHO.

1. Gary Gygax himself warns of both min maxers and monty hauls in that book.
2. No one will play a video game thats not a monty haul.

I had a +3 sword the first day I played DDO. It was also the last day I played DDO. Eve is the least "Monty Haul campaign" video game I have ever played, but there has to come a point where you can earn oodles of cash or too many people would quit. Since it takes a while to achieve that, almost every player is a die hard min/maxer.

"Almost" being the keyword. I know I'm not a min/maxer in any game I play. Whether it's EVE, D&D or whatever, I rarely min/max, because I find it more fun to actually have a challenging fight, than one that just ends after drawing your weapon. That doesn't mean I don't know how to min/max, though.


Yeah, my friends get pissed at me for not min maxing a lot of times.

It just makes it take a little longer to get to the monty haul part.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#105 - 2012-08-08 02:34:24 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
At first, this complaint confused me. Why are you trying to make a business out of ganking in high sec? Why do you think this is a good thing? Why do you care if other people are playing differently than you?

But then some part of me called back to my days of being a Dungeon Master and what the root of this could be.

There was always one thing that my dungeon master's guide said that stuck with me. And that was about the party stealing situation. Going by memory, I'll quote:

"When your thief steals from your party, it is more often than not a huge red flag that they aren't getting enough opportunities to flex their skillset. They don't just want to be a fancy locksmith. They want to clever, thieving and practical in far more situations than picking locks."

Similarly, the dungeon master guide that people more often than not won't tell you what they want. Even if they try.

Bringing us back to EVE, why are gankers and pirates so focused on ganking in high and low sec when they can gank without fear of CONCORD and other factors in nullsec?

Well, this comes back to the analogy I was making. Have we considered that null sec is what is broken and not high sec? Right now, nullsec is in a stagnant state. Large alliances have complete dominance and can only compete with each other. Piracy is almost non-existant except in gate camps and suicide ganks. And people with piracy skillsets aren't given enough opportunities to flex their abilities and be a pirate.

I couldn't even begin to pinpoint where or what the problem is with nullsec and how to fix it. But I think we, as a community, need to begin focusing our whine posts where it deserves to be. And let carebears be carebears.

Please tell me if I am right or way off the mark.


Gee.. Have you ever ever ever tried to solo in null sec ? From where you know that null sec is soooo broken? Sorry but you know nothing about 0.0 it's care bear talk. You are able to fly anywhere in null sec and kill anyone if you skilled. I don't get that bullshit about low sec. You guys want to be half in pregnant it's impossible if you dont know. 0.0 is empty coz you are so afraid about shiny ships... It's just a game ... Geee
Vinni Starseeker
MMMMMA
#106 - 2012-08-08 02:41:19 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:


My last excursion to Goonswarm territory didn't have any pirates in it.


That's cause the GSF isn't really a Pirate empire. They're a Nation, they've declared war on a type of ship, and the Gankers they've hired are Privateers in that war.


I know.

Big smile



Hey, you know what... that gives me an idea.

There's nothing stopping the miners from organizing rewards for Privateers willing to go disrupt Goonswarm's activities in their own space, is there? Or going there themselves to disrupt Goonswarm's activities?


Because all those miners must have trained l33te combat skills - surely. Doesn't everyone?
Vinni Starseeker
MMMMMA
#107 - 2012-08-08 02:42:41 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
Russell Casey wrote:


If you're a miner, you go where the asteroids are.

If you're a ratter, you go where the rats are.

If you're an explorer, you go where the anoms are.

If you're a mission runner, you go where the agents are.

If you're a trader, you go where the markets are.

If you're a pirate, you go where the clueless people with lots of cash are.


My last excursion to Goonswarm territory didn't have any pirates in it.


I see what you did there.

+1
ElSuerte Diego
Los Perros Hermanos
#108 - 2012-08-08 03:18:21 UTC
I'd have a little more sympathy for high-sec pirates, if the vast majority of the ones I've encountered weren't so lame.

The tiny industrial corp I was in had run up against a group of can flippers that operated in the belts we frequented. They didn't flip for ore, they flipped to get aggro. When we ignored that, they tried bumping us with their Tech2'd, Faction modded, Thoraxes. We switch belts, and the cycle repeats.

Obviously, they weren't getting their pvp rocks off, so they war decced our <20 member industrial corp. I've got less then 30k sp in gunnery and missle launcher combined, so of course they popped my badger. Hopefully they enjoyed the crates of frozen seeds I was hauling around.

Eventually, one of us got the bright idea to do stuff in low/null sec instead of staying docked. Turns out that these super elite pirates would track us down over 25 jumps in high sec, but were too scared to get us in low/null. Lame.

They're the PVP version of carebears.
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#109 - 2012-08-08 03:26:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Katherine Devonshire
I believe that OP is right on track, and I'd like to follow that track even further to see where it leads, and there are a number of stops along that route that eventually link together into the current problem. In no particular order they are:


1) From what others have said, nullsec comes in two varieties: "Void" and "Claimed." If a system is Claimed, then no one is going to operate there except that Alliance's ships. This includes both miners and pirates. No lone pirate is going to face an Alliance vengeance blob any more than a lone miner is. I could be wrong, but that's the impression that I get.

2) Because of #1, this severely restricts the average pirate to lowsec only (0.1 to 0.4).

3) The question for miners (and, by default, industrialists) is "Where do I get this type of asteroid and what security level risk must I face to acquire it?"

4) The question for pirates is "Does this belt contain asteroids tempting enough to lure in miners for us to attack?"

5) The problem for pirates is that the answer to #4 is always "No."

6) Because of this lack of targets, pirates get frustrated. Goon bounties for ganking seem lucrative in comparison to patrolling endless empty belts in lowsec.

7) The reason for #5 is that null-sec mining is obviously more lucrative than low-sec mining, regardless of whether you're just in it for the ISK or if your an industrialist looking to feed your blueprints.

8) While many claim that there are plenty of null-sec systems left, they look to be few and far between.. And even if the lone, helpless miner that the pirate fantasizes about wanted to go to a Void nullsec area to mine...

9) There are entire Hulk fleets owned & operated by null-sec miners that mine continuously 23/7 for all the best, top end minerals. Why would an independent lone miner even bother when...

10) The combined output of all these nullsec Alliance mining fleets has so far outpaced the independent hisec miners that the price of high-end minerals (via nullsec) continues to drop while the price of low-end minerals (via hisec) continues to rise. Ergo, there seems that the combined output of all the nullsecl Alliance mining blobs actually outstrips (pardon the pun) the output of all the independent hisec miners to the point where we are actually seeing this difference in the marketplace. Hulkaggedon has only further increased this chasm, as it obviously focuses on hisec miners.

11) Thus, #10 is what causes #5. The sheer mass of the null-sec Alliance mineral output is so great that there is no longer any incentive for independent miners to ever leave hisec (since #10 has also made hisec more lucrative via economic inversion) unless they're going to join a nullsec Alliance themselves (ergo, go straight for the other end of the spectrum).

12) Because of #11, the average pirate has had their effective grounds restricted to a small area (i.e. lowsec) while at the same time their prey has been steadily migrating out of it; either by staying exclusively in hisec or by joining a nullsec Alliance - both of which are generally considered to be "safer options."

13) Pirates are forced to choose between boredom & starvation or moving into one of these other two areas. Since honking off a giant nullsec Alliance when you're the average pirate is pretty suicidal, they opt for ganking in hisec instead. As stated in #6, Goon bounties for hisec ganking further push pirates in that direction.

In conclusion, I believe that the real root cause of all this ultimately falls to the nullsec Alliances flooding the market with top-end minerals, thus dropping their prices and removing the profit incentive for independent lone miners (read: pirate bait) to ever leave hisec - or worse, join the nullsec Alliance mining blobs themselves. However that flooding of minerals itself is merely a side effect of the inertia these massive nullsec Alliance have themselves created for the EvE Universe.

Thus...

The hisec miners say: "Why get my butt blown up looking for Megacyte when I can just trade Tritanium for it?"

The hisec pirates say: "Gank baby, gank! For this is the pathos that we have been reduced to."

The nullsec miners say: "Why waste time mining Veldspar when I'm safely protected by my Alliance in a system that spawns Arkanor in abundance?"

The nullsec pirates say: "Keekee I blew up their precious ... oh crap fifteen supercaps just jumped on top of me! Aiiiiggg... [dies"

The lowsec miners say: "This is stupid, I'm going to (head back to hisec/join a nullsec Alliance)."

The lowsec pirates say: "Where did everybody go?"

The sound of the Amarrian heart
Pipa Porto
#110 - 2012-08-08 03:52:37 UTC
Vinni Starseeker wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:


My last excursion to Goonswarm territory didn't have any pirates in it.


That's cause the GSF isn't really a Pirate empire. They're a Nation, they've declared war on a type of ship, and the Gankers they've hired are Privateers in that war.


I know.

Big smile



Hey, you know what... that gives me an idea.

There's nothing stopping the miners from organizing rewards for Privateers willing to go disrupt Goonswarm's activities in their own space, is there? Or going there themselves to disrupt Goonswarm's activities?


Because all those miners must have trained l33te combat skills - surely. Doesn't everyone?


Everyone has the same opportunity to train skills and gain personal skills.

Also, aren't miners always calling Nullbears cowards? Train up a Bomber alt and fly it in and cloak. It takes like 6 months to max out mining skills. What else have you been training?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Theron Urian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#111 - 2012-08-08 04:14:39 UTC
I may get flamed out of the forums for this, but it seems that a large part of the problem is the large 1500-2000+ player alliances. These large groups of players have so much power and weight to throw around that your either with them, play in high sec, or play in the fringes (suicide gank and low sec).

Its almost like a fish tank, either your one of the big fish, your in a school of smaller fish and get picked off, or you eat scraps off the bottom.

I think EvE needs its "big fish" to clash on a frequent basis, to give smaller fishes chances to become big fish... then get killed and continue the cycle.

I think we are suffering from stagnation.

Go ahead, flame on.
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#112 - 2012-08-08 04:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilianna Star
Theron Urian wrote:
I may get flamed out of the forums for this, but it seems that a large part of the problem is the large 1500-2000+ player alliances. These large groups of players have so much power and weight to throw around that your either with them, play in high sec, or play in the fringes (suicide gank and low sec).

Its almost like a fish tank, either your one of the big fish, your in a school of smaller fish and get picked off, or you eat scraps off the bottom.

I think EvE needs its "big fish" to clash on a frequent basis, to give smaller fishes chances to become big fish... then get killed and continue the cycle.

I think we are suffering from stagnation.

Go ahead, flame on.


Not only do I completely agree, I think that it is EVE's biggest problem.

It needs to be easier for a large alliance to mount an effective attack on one another. Not easy, mind you. Easier.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#113 - 2012-08-08 04:36:36 UTC
I've been asking for a way to go punch nullsec'ers below the belt for a while, currently all I can do as a solo/small gang player is roam around and make their ratters dock up for a bit and slightly annoy them. sometimes you even get to play with a gate camp

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#114 - 2012-08-08 05:37:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Theron Urian wrote:
I may get flamed out of the forums for this, but it seems that a large part of the problem is the large 1500-2000+ player alliances. These large groups of players have so much power and weight to throw around that your either with them, play in high sec, or play in the fringes (suicide gank and low sec).

Its almost like a fish tank, either your one of the big fish, your in a school of smaller fish and get picked off, or you eat scraps off the bottom.

I think EvE needs its "big fish" to clash on a frequent basis, to give smaller fishes chances to become big fish... then get killed and continue the cycle.

I think we are suffering from stagnation.

Go ahead, flame on.

Try and get a spot in the south, I think there's plenty of room for some small fish to :getin: and have some fun.
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
I've been asking for a way to go punch nullsec'ers below the belt for a while, currently all I can do as a solo/small gang player is roam around and make their ratters dock up for a bit and slightly annoy them. sometimes you even get to play with a gate camp

It's called AFK cloaky camp for a reason.

First, you cloak up.
Second, you begin to camp them.
Third, you go AFK.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?