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My take on the "This game is going carebear, I'm quitting!" attitude as of late.
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Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#61 - 2012-08-07 13:02:39 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
Bringing us back to EVE, why are gankers and pirates so focused on ganking in high and low sec when they can gank without fear of CONCORD and other factors in nullsec?


Umm, it's quite simple, really. Most of EVE's population is in high sec. So if you're going to gank, you go to high sec, where the meat is. Seems very logical to me. Further, in high sec people don't expect to be attacked, hoping for CONCORD to save them, while in low or null they might actually fight back and, gasp, might even kick your butt.

Look at it this way. If you were a mugger, where would you ply your trade? A place full of ignorant rich yuppies protected by police (and remember that when seconds count, police are just minutes away) or a ghetto where every other guy is packing heat and is more than willing to use it?
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#62 - 2012-08-07 13:14:00 UTC
Terrible Damage wrote:
In my uneducated opinion, CCP should simply slash the high-sec faucet's flow in half.

~~~

of course we'd all prefer a game where there is no distinction between high/low/0.0 sec but that's not gonna happen *sigh*


You have no idea how this game works

Your post is bad, and you should feel bad.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#63 - 2012-08-07 13:36:40 UTC
Terrible Damage wrote:
In my uneducated opinion, CCP should simply slash the high-sec faucet's flow in half.


Then there would be no point to play at all. If all of hisec has no money, who will buy anything? Will you sell to one another with a wink and a smile?

Terrible Damage wrote:
of course we'd all prefer a game where there is no distinction between high/low/0.0 sec but that's not gonna happen *sigh*


Then there would be no point at all to play.

It makes me sad to see that people still do not understand the dynamic of the game.

John Hancock
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#64 - 2012-08-07 13:42:42 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
Bringing us back to EVE, why are gankers and pirates so focused on ganking in high and low sec when they can gank without fear of CONCORD and other factors in nullsec?


Umm, it's quite simple, really. Most of EVE's population is in high sec. So if you're going to gank, you go to high sec, where the meat is. Seems very logical to me. Further, in high sec people don't expect to be attacked, hoping for CONCORD to save them, while in low or null they might actually fight back and, gasp, might even kick your butt.

Look at it this way. If you were a mugger, where would you ply your trade? A place full of ignorant rich yuppies protected by police (and remember that when seconds count, police are just minutes away) or a ghetto where every other guy is packing heat and is more than willing to use it?



Its a good analogy and absolutly true, but if you do get nailed in a rich neighberhood and your a thug what happens to you?

You sure as **** don't spawn in a clone and after 15 minutes walk out free as a bird with the loot you stole from your kill safely at your friends house.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Sarik Olecar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2012-08-07 13:47:59 UTC
So the null-bunnies are blued up to their nips and "teh ebil piwates" hunted all their prey to extinction by douching ransoms...

How is this hisecs problem?

Hows my posting? Call 1-800-747-7633 to leave feedback.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#66 - 2012-08-07 13:58:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
I think people are putting to much thought into this. Suicide ganking isn't about profit, nor should it be. Suicide ganking is comparable to an act of terrorism in real life and thus, it has it's place in hisec. So what if that becomes a little harder or more expensive to set up? It's not exactly easy to prepare for and execute a terrorism attack in real life, why should it be in EvE? If a single suicide bomber doesn't do enough damage, why not use two at the same time? Or three? Adapt. Overcome. Thrive. Real terrorist organisations plot and scheme for weeks to achieve their goals. Do you want to play a feared terrorist, or just some random freak that starts shooting people in a busy place and eventually gets popped by the cops? Terrorism is different from spree killing, it requires effort and organisation.

Different playstyles being at odds with each other isn't the real issue I think. I think it's mainly a matter of being OK with all the playstyles you don't experiencing yourself. I can understand why you'd want to mine in peace, without a terrorist threat. I can also understand what a joy it might be to bring chaos and destruction to hisec. If you cannot understand both, you are quite a limited EvE player and will, at some point, walk up to a huge dissapointment. Your mining ship gets ganked or your pirate ship is blown up by CONCORD before you took out your target, because your target was properly tanked or got a neutral RR. Other playstyles exist and are just as viable as yours, players would have less of a hard time if they could just simply accept what kind of game EvE is.

TL;DR:
The terrorist archetype is just as viable as that of a miner, but terrorists will have to adapt their playstyle now. Players that can accept the viability of all archetypes, even those opposed to their playstyle, might have more fun in EvE.
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-08-07 14:55:37 UTC
Kehro Urgus wrote:
Do you speak Klingon?



Nuq daq o' puchpa e'? Qa pla'
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Pankas Carter
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2012-08-07 15:07:25 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Serena Serene wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
Well, to be honest I always thought jump freighters was a hokey idea to add.

But on the other hand, they are in already and removing them where many alliances have built an infrastructure around Jump Freighters could cause a sticky situation.


Nobody enjoys Freighter Convoys. And the big alliance will just have POSes with bridge Titans. No real change in safety, just an increase in capital investment.


Sorry to chime in here, but I'm curious: Why would nobody enjoy this?
I find the scenario so interesting. Important cargo to transport, a few, or even dozens, of freighters, escorted by combat ships, scout sent out to adjacent systems. Isn't that a great example of how a group of people with various skillsets can work together?

This is a serious question, since I probably overlook something.



Because we like shooting things. A Successful freighter OP is a few hours hoping that we don't have to shoot anything (if we do, someone's gonna drop Caps/Supers to ensure the Freighters die). An Unsuccessful freighter OP will either end in the Freighters getting logged before they're agressed (meaning we have to continue it later despite the enemies certainly having the freighter toons watchlisted), or dying in a fire.

In other words, there is no way to have a successful freighter Op that includes shooting things (which, as mentioned, we enjoy).


Just want to point out....

Not everyone enjoys just shooting things. I, for one, would enjoy the hell out of this.

Can caps/supers hotdrop in low? I didn't think they could, so this leaves some fun in lowsec for the pirates, at least for the convoy segments that traverse lowsec. It's only null that gets left broken, which is the superpowers' playpen and so they can enjoy their space while the rest of us enjoy low/high.

Adama: Starbuck, what do you hear? Starbuck: Nothing but the rain. Adama: Then grab your gun and bring in the cat.
Serena Serene
Heretic University
#69 - 2012-08-07 15:17:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Serena Serene
Pankas Carter wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

[Stuff about freighter-OPs and what and what not to enjoy about them]


Just want to point out....

Not everyone enjoys just shooting things. I, for one, would enjoy the hell out of this.

Can caps/supers hotdrop in low? I didn't think they could, so this leaves some fun in lowsec for the pirates, at least for the convoy segments that traverse lowsec. It's only null that gets left broken, which is the superpowers' playpen and so they can enjoy their space while the rest of us enjoy low/high.


I think caps can use their jump drives in low sec. As far as I know they can't use stargates so how'd they travel around otherwise?

Edit: disregard this if I misunderstood the question, please. Should be easily recognizable in case my answer doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#70 - 2012-08-07 15:38:18 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
Bringing us back to EVE, why are gankers and pirates so focused on ganking in high and low sec when they can gank without fear of CONCORD and other factors in nullsec?


Umm, it's quite simple, really. Most of EVE's population is in high sec. So if you're going to gank, you go to high sec, where the meat is. Seems very logical to me. Further, in high sec people don't expect to be attacked, hoping for CONCORD to save them, while in low or null they might actually fight back and, gasp, might even kick your butt.

Look at it this way. If you were a mugger, where would you ply your trade? A place full of ignorant rich yuppies protected by police (and remember that when seconds count, police are just minutes away) or a ghetto where every other guy is packing heat and is more than willing to use it?



But the pirates complain that carebears want it easy. I would have thought for certain that they weren't hypocrites and that they would appreciate taking down challenging targets if they were consistently available.
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#71 - 2012-08-07 15:49:58 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
But the pirates complain that carebears want it easy. I would have thought for certain that they weren't hypocrites and that they would appreciate taking down challenging targets if they were consistently available.


No they wouldn't and yes they are hypocrits... alteast this "new breed" of post Goon invasion "pirates".

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Pipa Porto
#72 - 2012-08-07 15:51:55 UTC
Pankas Carter wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

Because we like shooting things. A Successful freighter OP is a few hours hoping that we don't have to shoot anything (if we do, someone's gonna drop Caps/Supers to ensure the Freighters die). An Unsuccessful freighter OP will either end in the Freighters getting logged before they're agressed (meaning we have to continue it later despite the enemies certainly having the freighter toons watchlisted), or dying in a fire.

In other words, there is no way to have a successful freighter Op that includes shooting things (which, as mentioned, we enjoy).


Just want to point out....

Not everyone enjoys just shooting things. I, for one, would enjoy the hell out of this.

Can caps/supers hotdrop in low? I didn't think they could, so this leaves some fun in lowsec for the pirates, at least for the convoy segments that traverse lowsec. It's only null that gets left broken, which is the superpowers' playpen and so they can enjoy their space while the rest of us enjoy low/high.


The only thing Supers can't do in LS is DD. Hotdropping happens in LS all the time. Hotdropping is just a term for Cynoing reinforcements into the middle of a grid where a fight's happening.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hot_drop

As for enjoying freighter convoys because you don't like shooting things, which part would you enjoy?
Scouting in super-slow-motion, knowing that a fleet can get the drop on your freighters at any time with a cloaked smartbombing ship to aggro your freighters, and a fleet ready on a Titan/Logged off/On a BLOPs/on a side system, and there's really nothing you can do to prevent it, because the LS segment of the convoy basically requires that you go through systems that have neuts?

Or Flying the freighter, knowing that you have no say in whether you survive because you'll either be Loggofsking if you're lucky, or you'll get caught by the aformentioned aggroing smartbombs and killed on the next gate because you take ten minutes to cross a system, so there's tons of time to set a trap.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#73 - 2012-08-07 15:52:26 UTC
Okay, to be fair, there is the little hotdropping problem where the enemy can just hotdrop reinforcements right in if you attack someone and unlike CONCORD they won't let you collect the loot.
Pipa Porto
#74 - 2012-08-07 15:58:22 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
Bringing us back to EVE, why are gankers and pirates so focused on ganking in high and low sec when they can gank without fear of CONCORD and other factors in nullsec?


Umm, it's quite simple, really. Most of EVE's population is in high sec. So if you're going to gank, you go to high sec, where the meat is. Seems very logical to me. Further, in high sec people don't expect to be attacked, hoping for CONCORD to save them, while in low or null they might actually fight back and, gasp, might even kick your butt.

Look at it this way. If you were a mugger, where would you ply your trade? A place full of ignorant rich yuppies protected by police (and remember that when seconds count, police are just minutes away) or a ghetto where every other guy is packing heat and is more than willing to use it?



But the pirates complain that carebears want it easy. I would have thought for certain that they weren't hypocrites and that they would appreciate taking down challenging targets if they were consistently available.


You do realize that most people suicide gank in the lulls between fleet ops, or roams, or whatever?
And the issue isn't that carebears are doing something easy (we don't care how hard/easy mining is), the issue is that they want somewhere that is totally safe in EVE. Total Safety is the one thing that EVE doesn't make available. You can gain some relative safety (by, say, tanking your Hulk), if you make some sacrifices or pay attention, but you don't get total safety. The Mackinaw buff is giving the miners (at least the ones who normally use Cargo Hulks) that relative safety without any sacrifices or need to pay attention.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#75 - 2012-08-07 16:02:17 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


You do realize that most people suicide gank in the lulls between fleet ops, or roams, or whatever?
And the issue isn't that carebears are doing something easy (we don't care how hard/easy mining is), the issue is that they want somewhere that is totally safe in EVE. Total Safety is the one thing that EVE doesn't make available. You can gain some relative safety (by, say, tanking your Hulk), if you make some sacrifices or pay attention, but you don't get total safety. The Mackinaw buff is giving the miners (at least the ones who normally use Cargo Hulks) that relative safety without any sacrifices or need to pay attention.



Wait, you mean I am not safe docked in a station?

I didn't actually know that....Sad
Pipa Porto
#76 - 2012-08-07 16:03:03 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
Okay, to be fair, there is the little hotdropping problem where the enemy can just hotdrop reinforcements right in if you attack someone and unlike CONCORD they won't let you collect the loot.


A Hotdrop is no different from a Logoffski trap, or a fleet waiting in a side system with some cloaked heavy tackle.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#77 - 2012-08-07 16:06:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Lilianna Star wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


You do realize that most people suicide gank in the lulls between fleet ops, or roams, or whatever?
And the issue isn't that carebears are doing something easy (we don't care how hard/easy mining is), the issue is that they want somewhere that is totally safe in EVE. Total Safety is the one thing that EVE doesn't make available. You can gain some relative safety (by, say, tanking your Hulk), if you make some sacrifices or pay attention, but you don't get total safety. The Mackinaw buff is giving the miners (at least the ones who normally use Cargo Hulks) that relative safety without any sacrifices or need to pay attention.



Wait, you mean I am not safe docked in a station?

I didn't actually know that....Sad


You caught me. Clearly, my point is disprove by finding out that you can be safe while you're not doing any productive activity and you're unable to affect the world around you (ship spinning in station).

Ship Spinning = Safe.

Open the market window = You can lose your shirt if you make bad trading choices.
Undock = You can lose your shirt if you make bad fitting/flying choices.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#78 - 2012-08-07 16:12:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilianna Star
Pipa Porto wrote:


You caught me. Clearly, my point is disprove by finding out that you can be safe while you're not doing any productive activity and you're unable to affect the world around you (ship spinning in station).

Ship Spinning = Safe.

Open the market window = You can lose your shirt if you make bad trading choices.
Undock = You can lose your shirt if you make bad fitting/flying choices.


I actually agree. The skiff/procurer should be useful.

The Procurer should have a larger drone bay too.
Pipa Porto
#79 - 2012-08-07 16:21:31 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


You caught me. Clearly, my point is disprove by finding out that you can be safe while you're not doing any productive activity and you're unable to affect the world around you (ship spinning in station).

Ship Spinning = Safe.

Open the market window = You can lose your shirt if you make bad trading choices.
Undock = You can lose your shirt if you make bad fitting/flying choices.


I actually agree. The skiff/procurer should be useful.

The Procurer should have a larger drone bay too.


Yep. The Skiff should have a use. Unfortunately the Mack outshines it.

I say give the Skiff it's WCS bonus back (give it some illusion of survivibility in dangerous space) and reduce the Mack's tank to that of a Hulk (it's the other side of the Yield/Cargo coin; why should it have a tank buff on top?). Then the Skiff's great if you're worried about people violencing your boat, the Mack's great if you're worried about not having a hauler, and the Hulk's great if you have the above taken care of.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#80 - 2012-08-07 16:49:32 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
I say give the Skiff it's WCS bonus back (give it some illusion of survivibility in dangerous space) and reduce the Mack's tank to that of a Hulk (it's the other side of the Yield/Cargo coin; why should it have a tank buff on top?).

Yeah, well I guess cargo isn't considered as "great" as yield, so it gets a bit of tank.

Like Skiff tank is worth 2
Hulk yield is worth 2
Mack cargo is worth 1, so it gets 1 point of tank.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?