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My take on the "This game is going carebear, I'm quitting!" attitude as of late.
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Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#1 - 2012-08-07 06:23:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilianna Star
At first, this complaint confused me. Why are you trying to make a business out of ganking in high sec? Why do you think this is a good thing? Why do you care if other people are playing differently than you?

But then some part of me called back to my days of being a Dungeon Master and what the root of this could be.

There was always one thing that my dungeon master's guide said that stuck with me. And that was about the party stealing situation. Going by memory, I'll quote:

"When your thief steals from your party, it is more often than not a huge red flag that they aren't getting enough opportunities to flex their skillset. They don't just want to be a fancy locksmith. They want to clever, thieving and practical in far more situations than picking locks."

Similarly, the dungeon master guide that people more often than not won't tell you what they want. Even if they try.

Bringing us back to EVE, why are gankers and pirates so focused on ganking in high and low sec when they can gank without fear of CONCORD and other factors in nullsec?

Well, this comes back to the analogy I was making. Have we considered that null sec is what is broken and not high sec? Right now, nullsec is in a stagnant state. Large alliances have complete dominance and can only compete with each other. Piracy is almost non-existant except in gate camps and suicide ganks. And people with piracy skillsets aren't given enough opportunities to flex their abilities and be a pirate.

I couldn't even begin to pinpoint where or what the problem is with nullsec and how to fix it. But I think we, as a community, need to begin focusing our whine posts where it deserves to be. And let carebears be carebears.

Please tell me if I am right or way off the mark.
Kehro Urgus
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-08-07 06:26:50 UTC
Do you speak Klingon?

Yeeee! 
Lucy Oreless
Rise of Rephaim
#3 - 2012-08-07 06:30:17 UTC
I Thinkyou are forgetting something here, namely the "*******-gene".
Some of us actually have a good day when we ruin others day. No boredom, no lack of exitement, just plain evil.

Never count out "basterds" when you you try to figure oyt why people gank in hi-sec or acts as pirates in lo.

 I did not have sexual relations to THAT woman....
Pipa Porto
#4 - 2012-08-07 06:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Lilianna Star wrote:
At first, this complaint confused me. Why are you trying to make a business out of ganking in high sec? Why do you think this is a good thing? Why do you care if other people are playing differently than you?


My take on the "I got ganked, I'm quitting" attitude.

At first, this complaint confused me. Why are you thinking that you're safe in high sec? Why do you think a safe place in EVE is a good thing? Why do you care if other people are playing differently than you?


Ganking's just a different style of play. No better or worse than mining. Gankers aren't trying to ban mining (or who would they gank?), or make it impossible to profit from, but miners sure are trying to get ganking banned.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Soundwave Plays Diablo
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-08-07 06:32:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Soundwave Plays Diablo
DMG 1 is the bible IMHO.

1. Gary Gygax himself warns of both min maxers and monty hauls in that book.
2. No one will play a video game thats not a monty haul.

I had a +3 sword the first day I played DDO. It was also the last day I played DDO. Eve is the least "Monty Haul campaign" video game I have ever played, but there has to come a point where you can earn oodles of cash or too many people would quit. Since it takes a while to achieve that, almost every player is a die hard min/maxer.
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#6 - 2012-08-07 06:37:22 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
At first, this complaint confused me. Why are you trying to make a business out of ganking in high sec? Why do you think this is a good thing? Why do you care if other people are playing differently than you?


My take on the "I got ganked, I'm quitting" attitude.

At first, this complaint confused me. Why are you thinking that you're safe in high sec? Why do you think a safe place in EVE is a good thing? Why do you care if other people are playing differently than you?


Ganking's just a different style of play. No better or worse than mining. Gankers aren't trying to ban mining (or who would they gank?), or make it impossible to profit from, but miners sure are trying to get ganking banned.


I actually have a deep admiration for people who continue to look for ways to circumvent CONCORD's wrath long enough to pop an unsuspecting miner.

I'm mostly addressing the people who are COMPLAINING that their old method of high sec ganking isn't working anymore and it'll be more expensive.
Terrible Damage
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-08-07 06:39:05 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
At first, this complaint confused me. Why are you trying to make a business out of ganking in high sec? Why do you think this is a good thing? Why do you care if other people are playing differently than you?


My take on the "I got ganked, I'm quitting" attitude.

At first, this complaint confused me. Why are you thinking that you're safe in high sec? Why do you think a safe place in EVE is a good thing? Why do you care if other people are playing differently than you?


Ganking's just a different style of play. No better or worse than mining. Gankers aren't trying to ban mining (or who would they gank?), or make it impossible to profit from, but miners sure are trying to get ganking banned.


oh darkfall, how i long for thee (to be without ****** grind)
Pipa Porto
#8 - 2012-08-07 06:43:22 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
At first, this complaint confused me. Why are you trying to make a business out of ganking in high sec? Why do you think this is a good thing? Why do you care if other people are playing differently than you?


My take on the "I got ganked, I'm quitting" attitude.

At first, this complaint confused me. Why are you thinking that you're safe in high sec? Why do you think a safe place in EVE is a good thing? Why do you care if other people are playing differently than you?


Ganking's just a different style of play. No better or worse than mining. Gankers aren't trying to ban mining (or who would they gank?), or make it impossible to profit from, but miners sure are trying to get ganking banned.


I actually have a deep admiration for people who continue to look for ways to circumvent CONCORD's wrath long enough to pop an unsuspecting miner.

I'm mostly addressing the people who are COMPLAINING that their old method of high sec ganking isn't working anymore and it'll be more expensive.


The current changes make it such that you cannot profitably gank Tanked MLU Mackinaws, so there's no reason to ever use the Skiff (the Mack mines more, tanks enough, and has the cavernous ore hold). There's no reason for the Mackinaw to have a better tank than the Hulk.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#9 - 2012-08-07 06:46:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilianna Star
Pipa Porto wrote:


The current changes make it such that you cannot profitably gank Tanked MLU Mackinaws, so there's no reason to ever use the Skiff (the Mack mines more, tanks enough, and has the cavernous ore hold). There's no reason for the Mackinaw to have a better tank than the Hulk.


Outmoding a ship intended to be useful regardless of how high your skills are is a problem.

But I'm talking about people complaining about carebears, turning high sec into hello kitty online, etc.
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#10 - 2012-08-07 06:46:57 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
The current changes make it such that you cannot profitably gank Tanked MLU Mackinaws, so there's no reason to ever use the Skiff (the Mack mines more, tanks enough, and has the cavernous ore hold). There's no reason for the Mackinaw to have a better tank than the Hulk.


The way I understood it, Procs/Skiffs shouldn't be used in highsec at all now... not that I would mine lowsec, no matter the ship.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#11 - 2012-08-07 06:49:37 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
The current changes make it such that you cannot profitably gank Tanked MLU Mackinaws, so there's no reason to ever use the Skiff (the Mack mines more, tanks enough, and has the cavernous ore hold). There's no reason for the Mackinaw to have a better tank than the Hulk.


The way I understood it, Procs/Skiffs shouldn't be used in highsec at all now... not that I would mine lowsec, no matter the ship.


If you're caught in low/null in a miner, even in a skiff, you're dead. So no reason to tank it.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-08-07 06:51:42 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
Shalua Rui wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
The current changes make it such that you cannot profitably gank Tanked MLU Mackinaws, so there's no reason to ever use the Skiff (the Mack mines more, tanks enough, and has the cavernous ore hold). There's no reason for the Mackinaw to have a better tank than the Hulk.


The way I understood it, Procs/Skiffs shouldn't be used in highsec at all now... not that I would mine lowsec, no matter the ship.


If you're caught in low/null in a miner, even in a skiff, you're dead. So no reason to tank it.


Not if the attacking party forgot something important... like that time I forgot to bring ammo Shocked

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#13 - 2012-08-07 06:52:30 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
If you're caught in low/null in a miner, even in a skiff, you're dead. So no reason to tank it.


Exactlly, but that was the design idea behind the Skiff, nevertheless...

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#14 - 2012-08-07 06:57:21 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
At first, this complaint confused me. Why are you trying to make a business out of ganking in high sec? Why do you think this is a good thing? Why do you care if other people are playing differently than you?

But then some part of me called back to my days of being a Dungeon Master and what the root of this could be.

There was always one thing that my dungeon master's guide said that stuck with me. And that was about the party stealing situation. Going by memory, I'll quote:

"When your thief steals from your party, it is more often than not a huge red flag that they aren't getting enough opportunities to flex their skillset. They don't just want to be a fancy locksmith. They want to clever, thieving and practical in far more situations than picking locks."

Similarly, the dungeon master guide that people more often than not won't tell you what they want. Even if they try.

Bringing us back to EVE, why are gankers and pirates so focused on ganking in high and low sec when they can gank without fear of CONCORD and other factors in nullsec?

Well, this comes back to the analogy I was making. Have we considered that null sec is what is broken and not high sec? Right now, nullsec is in a stagnant state. Large alliances have complete dominance and can only compete with each other. Piracy is almost non-existant except in gate camps and suicide ganks. And people with piracy skillsets aren't given enough opportunities to flex their abilities and be a pirate.

I couldn't even begin to pinpoint where or what the problem is with nullsec and how to fix it. But I think we, as a community, need to begin focusing our whine posts where it deserves to be. And let carebears be carebears.

Please tell me if I am right or way off the mark.


Here is the technical structure for why the current situation is the way it is:

1) Eve is a precise rule set. Besides hacking the game, everyone is playing with the exact same rules. When players discover that something is 1% better, everyone piles on, ignoring all other processes of similar focus. Hence, industry being the way it is.

2) Risk is almost completely binary at the moment: High sec, little risk, lowsec/0.0, massive risk. Hence, 'carebears' stay in high sec almost exclusively.

3) Hunters go where the prey are. Hence, the high sec ganking. It's not that pirates LIKE this mode of play. Most don't. But it's the only way for them to access targets.

4) The idea that the situation is the way that it is due to 'over fishing' of targets by pirates: not the case. It's CCP's fault for incorrectly designing the risk/reward system. Players understand the system, and they exploit the rules to their most efficient result. If it were more efficient to be in lowsec, including taking into account the risk of death, they would do it. But CCP has deemed this issue unimportant and has since ignored it.

5) So, you're sort of on the right track. Pirates don't stay in lowsec because there's no targets. Targets don't go into lowsec/0.0 beacuse there's no need. CCP has designed the game where the targets can avoid PVP 100% of the time (Jump Freighters, for example). There are no trees in space. Nothing to hide behind, no clutter if you will to camoflage yourself amongst and hide from your prey. In high sec, at least there's a little bit of traffic at the gates. There used to be much more back in the days before WTZ. Enough to clutter the overview and allow an unassuming player to blend in and wait for his target.

So, TL,DR: why do we have the situation as it is today? It's CCP's fault for not designing the game correctly.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#15 - 2012-08-07 07:00:51 UTC
Funny that it did work for so long then... I mean, it all was working 'till "somebody" (we all know who) came along and tipped the scales...

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Pipa Porto
#16 - 2012-08-07 07:01:47 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


The current changes make it such that you cannot profitably gank Tanked MLU Mackinaws, so there's no reason to ever use the Skiff (the Mack mines more, tanks enough, and has the cavernous ore hold). There's no reason for the Mackinaw to have a better tank than the Hulk.


Outmoding a ship intended to be useful regardless of how high your skills are is a problem.

But I'm talking about people complaining about carebears, turning high sec into hello kitty online, etc.


Carebear whining have gotten a couple dozen buffs to HS safety over the years.

Most recently:
Crucible on the whole raised the cost to gank (insurance Nerf + Nados/Dessy buffs resulted in an overall increase in SG costs across the board).
The Boomerang trick got nerfed after years of being legal
Concord's had it's response time buffed a few times
Wardecs got their cost increased tenfold, without any change in Corp Hopping.


There has never been a nerf to HS safety that has not come with a corresponding (and larger) buff to HS safety.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#17 - 2012-08-07 07:03:16 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
If you're caught in low/null in a miner, even in a skiff, you're dead. So no reason to tank it.


Exactlly, but that was the design idea behind the Skiff, nevertheless...


DevBlog wrote:
The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank, or NPCs, by giving a large enough buffer to react to incoming attacks, while paying for that with a lower mining yield.



Ummmm....

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Terrible Damage
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-08-07 07:03:36 UTC
In my uneducated opinion, CCP should simply slash the high-sec faucet's flow in half.

~~~

of course we'd all prefer a game where there is no distinction between high/low/0.0 sec but that's not gonna happen *sigh*
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#19 - 2012-08-07 07:08:43 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
DevBlog wrote:
The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank, or NPCs, by giving a large enough buffer to react to incoming attacks, while paying for that with a lower mining yield.



Ummmm....


Yea, that's what it is NOW, but there was an older statement claiming that the "small" barges where geared towards deep space mining... I'll try to dig it up.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#20 - 2012-08-07 07:09:15 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


Carebear whining have gotten a couple dozen buffs to HS safety over the years.

Most recently:
Crucible on the whole raised the cost to gank (insurance Nerf + Nados/Dessy buffs resulted in an overall increase in SG costs across the board).
The Boomerang trick got nerfed after years of being legal
Concord's had it's response time buffed a few times
Wardecs got their cost increased tenfold, without any change in Corp Hopping.


There has never been a nerf to HS safety that has not come with a corresponding (and larger) buff to HS safety.


I am not convinced that carebears are a problem. Or even catering to them with buffs to high sec safety.

That's not to say that what carebear whining might result in could be a problem. But a problem in itself this is not.
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