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500m to declare war on Goonswarm? (AKA: why are small corps penalised by the wardec system?)

First post
Author
James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp RELOADED
CODE.
#141 - 2012-08-18 02:48:09 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Goons can't have PvP get in the way of trying to suicide on AFK miners.

They can't let PvP get in the way of PvP? What?
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#142 - 2012-08-18 02:52:57 UTC
James 315 wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Goons can't have PvP get in the way of trying to suicide on AFK miners.

They can't let PvP get in the way of PvP? What?

Attacking mindless sheep hardly qualifies as PvP. In fact, it's much more like PvE than it is like consensual PvP.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2012-08-18 02:55:36 UTC
And yet it is one player affecting another player.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#144 - 2012-08-18 03:14:55 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
And yet it is one player affecting another player.

PvE effects other players. It's a persistent universe.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2012-08-18 03:30:44 UTC
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
And yet it is one player affecting another player.

PvE effects other players. It's a persistent universe.

Since when did PVE start affecting (no, not effecting, affecting) other players directly?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#146 - 2012-08-18 04:24:52 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Since when did PVE start affecting (no, not effecting, affecting) other players directly?

Since the dawn of mankind.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#147 - 2012-08-18 04:35:47 UTC
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
James 315 wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Goons can't have PvP get in the way of trying to suicide on AFK miners.

They can't let PvP get in the way of PvP? What?

Attacking mindless sheep hardly qualifies as PvP. In fact, it's much more like PvE than it is like consensual PvP.

Farming the miners or something ? Then get your bounty from "teh goonz".

Farming the rats or something? Then get your bounty from CONCORD.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2012-08-18 04:45:35 UTC
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Since when did PVE start affecting (no, not effecting, affecting) other players directly?

Since the dawn of mankind.

I think you'll find that in 99.999% of the time, they're not being affected directly, unlike what happens during a gank.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#149 - 2012-08-18 09:42:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Whipcrack
Marlona Sky wrote:

Yeah that is a problem too. Not really at a spot to really think about how to resolve it. It would be nice if there was more than one way to skin this cat. Would exploring other options to initiate a war dec that does not involve ISK?


One idea thrown about in another thread was to have 'regional' empire wars available (caldari, amarr etc), with cost based on your member size + the standings of the other entity to the empire region. You pay a fee not to CONCORD but to the empire concerned.

This could cost less than the universe-wide CONCORD option, and would allow some interesting tactics to evolve - such as the entity wardecced being able to avoid war in highsec if they keep clear of certain travel routes/areas.

It would also be the perfect option if you want to do something tactical such as destroy a certain highsec POS, or declare war not against a 0.0 entity but someone actually based in a specific part of empire etc.
Syler Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum
#150 - 2012-08-18 09:45:56 UTC
War isn't cheap.
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#151 - 2012-08-18 09:47:32 UTC
Syler Puuntai wrote:
War isn't cheap.


Unless you're an 8000 man alliance and want to grief a small empire corp. But woe betide if they want to do the same thing in return...
Syler Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum
#152 - 2012-08-18 09:49:32 UTC
It should be 500m no matter who you dec. Though 500m might be abit steep, maybe 300m.
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#153 - 2012-08-18 10:39:41 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:

So... if an 8000 man alliance and want to wardec a 10 man corp, it costs them almost nothing.

But... if the small corp wants to exactly the same thing in return, it costs the 10 man corp 500m.

Please explain how that makes any sense.


Because CCP wants you to pay more for shooting more targets. More targets = More money. Fewer targets = Less money. Your basically crying because you want to shoot at 8000 people, but don't want to fork over an amount of cash equivalent to that, nor do you want to leave the safety of high sec (ahahahahahahahaha safety!).

So you have two choices available. Continue to whine about how life, the universe, and everything are 42 kinds of unfair. Or brush the sand out of your mangina and go to null sec where no one gives a damn about what you do, or why. One of these choices involves you being hydrated, the other requires you have balls. Space Balls.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2012-08-18 10:41:07 UTC
Or we could make it so alliances who live in nullsec can't be wardecced by alliances/corps in hisec, and vice versa.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#155 - 2012-08-18 11:10:03 UTC
Would be cool if say your corp/alliance has really good standings with a specific faction, you can get the war dec at a discount, but it is only valid in the space that faction controls. But I guess that is pretty much what treaties are for. Point is there should be a way to isolate specific parts of space for the war dec. Maybe you don't care about how some group operates on the other side of high/low sec. You want to inflict pain closer to home. You don't like them doing that trade route where you spin ships, it is distracting and you lost count. Meanwhile that corp now has to take a longer way around high sec to avoid the 'danger zone' where they can be shot legally.

Just give us a lot more options CCP. This entire war dec really feels like another light switch mechanic. Either it is 100% legal anywhere in the game, or it is 100% illegal to shoot that corp/alliance. Give us different ways to do the war decs. Maybe if i kill enough of a corps ships in a controlled Gallente low sec area, I get to war dec that same corp at a 50% discount and it is only valid in Gallente controlled space. Or maybe if I kill enough directors of that corp it opens some more options.

Maybe those are specifically bad mechanics for a more dynamic war dec system, but I hope you all get the point I'm making. Perhaps some of you have some interesting goals or factors that could happen to allow certain things in a war dec to take place.

I'm tired, heading to bed. Big smile
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#156 - 2012-08-18 11:21:47 UTC
It encourages small groups to band together and become larger groups for the perceived protection of added cost to being wardec'd.

The fact that it is deterring you from declaring war on the goons, despite your elite monocle status, is evidence that it works as designed.

It just so happens that it also protects large groups that are popular targets. Such is life.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#157 - 2012-08-18 14:39:14 UTC
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:


Because CCP wants you to pay more for shooting more targets. More targets = More money. Fewer targets = Less money. Your basically crying because you want to shoot at 8000 people, but don't want to fork over an amount of cash equivalent to that, nor do you want to leave the safety of high sec (ahahahahahahahaha safety!).


If that is the stated reason, it's fatally flawed.

1) Large 0.0 entities don't hang out much in highsec - so you're not paying for more targets. You'll get more targets griefing a mid-sized empire mining corp for a lot less money if all you care about are number of targets. But that brings us nicely onto...

2) War declarations are used for a wide range of reasons - to destroy highsec POS, to avoid security hits in lowsec, for revenge, etc. Assuming the same reason for everyone ('lulz they just want moar targets') is lazy and, in many cases, simply wrong.

3) The same war should not be vastly cheaper for a larger entity to initiate. That is quite obviously ludicrous.
Reiisha
#158 - 2012-08-18 15:34:13 UTC
Shukuzen Kiraa wrote:
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:
Why do you need to wardec Goons anyway? They live in nullsec, where you can shoot them no matter what, and not even lose sec status.


that's right, they never set foot in empire or use trade hubs.... Roll


So bring the fight to them instead of being lazy and waiting for them to wander into high sec.


They don't care about 0.0. They just outblob you.

They do care about high sec where they're so used to doing whatever they want with 0 consequences. Taking that away from them is what this is about - Giving them a taste of their own medicine. I really wonder why so many people are opposed to this ;p

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2012-08-18 15:44:19 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
They do care about high sec where they're so used to doing whatever they want with 0 consequences.

Completely unlike literally every hisec "PVP" corp, who relies heavily on neutral repping buddies, of course.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#160 - 2012-08-18 15:44:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Lord Zim wrote:
And yet it is one player affecting another player.


which makes everything you do in game PVP (as it is according to the devs) because youre always affecting other players

Lord Zim wrote:
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
And yet it is one player affecting another player.

PvE effects other players. It's a persistent universe.

Since when did PVE start affecting (no, not effecting, affecting) other players directly?


Since there was a market?

Alavaria Fera wrote:

Farming the miners or something ? Then get your bounty from "teh goonz".

Farming the rats or something? Then get your bounty from CONCORD.


Hows that working out with those 100k ehp ships lol

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.