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500m to declare war on Goonswarm? (AKA: why are small corps penalised by the wardec system?)

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Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#201 - 2012-08-24 20:53:20 UTC
Alliance/corp members who are not even subscribed to the game should not be counted when equating the war dec cost. Or any character not currently training a skill for that matter.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2012-08-24 21:20:03 UTC
500m/week flat fee, regardless of what setup the war has, + complete inability to use any ships bigger than a cruiser while in NPC corps.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#203 - 2012-08-24 21:59:00 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Lord LazyGhost wrote:
logicaly the larger the allaince the more they sould pay to war dec somone. it sould be based on the size of the deccing corp/aliance

as the wardecc its self is a bribe to concord to allow fighting to take place. so there for logicaly havig more pilots concord would requiore a larger bribe to turn ablind eye to so may people being able to fight. where as havig a small 5 man corp would be cheap as a small 5 man gang will make less paper work for said concord to have to cover up. if you catch my drift. IE your mate works the doors on a club and u go to itn he mmay let you in for free. but you got with 100 of your friends iam sure he cant let them all in or he is going to want a proportion off the discounted entry free )


I completely agree. The existing system is the opposite of 'logical'.


Concord doesn't care how many people are able to fight. They care about how many fights actually happen. Everyone in the game has the ability to fight. The bribe is to look the other way when the fights do happen.

5-man corp war decs 500-man corp, camps gate, waits for one of the 500 people to come through that gate. Pretty good chance it's going to happen with so many targets, better charge a good price for that one.

500-man corp war decs 5-man corp, camps gate, waits for one of the 5 people to come through...and waits....and waits...not much going to happen with that one, no need to charge a lot.

It is perfectly logical. Saying it isn't logical doesn't make it so.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#204 - 2012-08-25 15:52:33 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Concord doesn't care how many people are able to fight. They care about how many fights actually happen. Everyone in the game has the ability to fight. The bribe is to look the other way when the fights do happen.

5-man corp war decs 500-man corp, camps gate, waits for one of the 500 people to come through that gate. Pretty good chance it's going to happen with so many targets, better charge a good price for that one.

500-man corp war decs 5-man corp, camps gate, waits for one of the 5 people to come through...and waits....and waits...not much going to happen with that one, no need to charge a lot.

It is perfectly logical. Saying it isn't logical doesn't make it so.

Heh. Well when you put it that way ^___^

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#205 - 2012-08-26 13:09:53 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:


Concord doesn't care how many people are able to fight. They care about how many fights actually happen. Everyone in the game has the ability to fight. The bribe is to look the other way when the fights do happen.

5-man corp war decs 500-man corp, camps gate, waits for one of the 500 people to come through that gate. Pretty good chance it's going to happen with so many targets, better charge a good price for that one.

500-man corp war decs 5-man corp, camps gate, waits for one of the 5 people to come through...and waits....and waits...not much going to happen with that one, no need to charge a lot.

It is perfectly logical. Saying it isn't logical doesn't make it so.


You're mistaken, and this is why:

The 5 man corp can camp a few empire gates, and possibly have a chance of interdicting one of those 500 members (unlikely if they live in 0.0).

The 500 man corp can camp mutiple pipes, gates, and trade hubs, and respond to intel more flexibly and rapidly (for example cutting off escape routes) - massively increasing the odds of finding a war target and generating a fight.

Therefore, statistically speaking, the chances of getting a fight are identical. You either have 500 hunters and 5 prey, and 5 hunters and 500 prey, but the chances of a violent encounter are the same, but this assumes that all 505 pilots are based in empire, which is unlikely. So if one of the entites is based in 0.0, which most large entities are, the odds decrease for the small corp even further.

So yes, it isn't logical at all, not because I say so, but because of facts.
Agaetis Byrjun Endalaust
#206 - 2012-08-26 13:23:40 UTC
TL;DR

but

yet another goonspiracy thread? Are you so blind not to see that the only one behind all this is the terribad (at EVE at least) entity called E-UNI?

__________________________ just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not after you
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#207 - 2012-08-26 14:28:46 UTC
Agaetis Byrjun Endalaust wrote:
TL;DR

but

yet another goonspiracy thread? Are you so blind not to see that the only one behind all this is the terribad (at EVE at least) entity called E-UNI?

E-UNI ?

What do they have to do with it?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#208 - 2012-08-26 18:05:59 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:


Concord doesn't care how many people are able to fight. They care about how many fights actually happen. Everyone in the game has the ability to fight. The bribe is to look the other way when the fights do happen.

5-man corp war decs 500-man corp, camps gate, waits for one of the 500 people to come through that gate. Pretty good chance it's going to happen with so many targets, better charge a good price for that one.

500-man corp war decs 5-man corp, camps gate, waits for one of the 5 people to come through...and waits....and waits...not much going to happen with that one, no need to charge a lot.

It is perfectly logical. Saying it isn't logical doesn't make it so.


You're mistaken, and this is why:

The 5 man corp can camp a few empire gates, and possibly have a chance of interdicting one of those 500 members (unlikely if they live in 0.0).

The 500 man corp can camp mutiple pipes, gates, and trade hubs, and respond to intel more flexibly and rapidly (for example cutting off escape routes) - massively increasing the odds of finding a war target and generating a fight.

Therefore, statistically speaking, the chances of getting a fight are identical. You either have 500 hunters and 5 prey, and 5 hunters and 500 prey, but the chances of a violent encounter are the same, but this assumes that all 505 pilots are based in empire, which is unlikely. So if one of the entites is based in 0.0, which most large entities are, the odds decrease for the small corp even further.

So yes, it isn't logical at all, not because I say so, but because of facts.


OK, let's assume corporations put that much effort into finding a few war targets. A big assumption, but we'll go with it for a moment.

500 man corp finds one of the five war targets, tells corp mates where to go, they manage to get a fight. But it took a lot of effort to do it. And now they need to go do it again, if they can find one of them. Quite a lot of effort just to find a few war targets.

5 man corp sits at a gate leading to a hub, where they know that many of the 500 people have to go through. There's 500 targets, they don't need a lot of effort to find one, just sit where they know one will show up in a short time. They don't have to worry about everyone being logged off at the same time, either, there's 500 of them. Plenty of targets!

Statistically speaking, the chances of a fight are no where near identical. The five man corp can effortlessly find targets while the 500 man corp has to start a coordinated operation just to find one target.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#209 - 2012-08-26 19:39:35 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Agaetis Byrjun Endalaust wrote:
TL;DR

but

yet another goonspiracy thread? Are you so blind not to see that the only one behind all this is the terribad (at EVE at least) entity called E-UNI?

E-UNI ?

What do they have to do with it?



lol you confused the goon

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#210 - 2012-08-26 20:42:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Manssell
Lady Whipcrack wrote:


EDIT: A common response is 'pay more for moar targetz lulz'. This is a fatally flawed argument:

1) Large 0.0 entities don't hang out much in highsec - so you're not paying for more targets. You'll get more targets griefing a mid-sized empire mining corp for a lot less money if all you care about are number of targets. But that brings us nicely onto...

2) War declarations are used for a wide range of reasons - to destroy highsec POS, to avoid security hits in lowsec, for revenge, etc. Assuming the same reason for everyone ('lulz they just want moar targets') is lazy and, in many cases, simply wrong.

3) The same war should not be vastly cheaper for a larger entity to initiate. That is quite obviously ludicrous.


If you want a laugh, go back and read the initial thread on the wardec changes right after they went live (and even the ones before) you can see CCP use the same "you're paying for more targets" line when people complained about the cost to wardec large 0.0 groups. Yet if you keep reading when people started complaining about small corps getting stuck in a perpetual cheap war (form a large groups perspective) and getting curb stomped, CCPs' response was that it's not something you should worry about since there's really not that many 0.0 pilots in hi-sec.

So yea, your paying for more targets, but don't worry about getting curb stomped since there's really not that many targets?
Frying Doom
#211 - 2012-08-26 22:32:27 UTC
Manssell wrote:
Lady Whipcrack wrote:


EDIT: A common response is 'pay more for moar targetz lulz'. This is a fatally flawed argument:

1) Large 0.0 entities don't hang out much in highsec - so you're not paying for more targets. You'll get more targets griefing a mid-sized empire mining corp for a lot less money if all you care about are number of targets. But that brings us nicely onto...

2) War declarations are used for a wide range of reasons - to destroy highsec POS, to avoid security hits in lowsec, for revenge, etc. Assuming the same reason for everyone ('lulz they just want moar targets') is lazy and, in many cases, simply wrong.

3) The same war should not be vastly cheaper for a larger entity to initiate. That is quite obviously ludicrous.


If you want a laugh, go back and read the initial thread on the wardec changes right after they went live (and even the ones before) you can see CCP use the same "you're paying for more targets" line when people complained about the cost to wardec large 0.0 groups. Yet if you keep reading when people stated complaining about small corps getting stuck in a perpetual cheap war (form a large groups perspective) and getting curb stomped, CCPs' response was that it's not something you should worry about since there's really not that many 0.0 pilots in hi-sec.

So yea, your paying for more targets, but don't worry about getting curb stomped since there's really not that many targets?

Yeah the "New and Improved" war dec system really needs to be thrown in the trash its a lot worse than the old system ever was.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#212 - 2012-08-26 23:25:51 UTC
There is no shortage of nullsec entities which will happily let you join and shoot at us for free.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#213 - 2012-08-28 18:38:58 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:


Statistically speaking, the chances of a fight are no where near identical. The five man corp can effortlessly find targets while the 500 man corp has to start a coordinated operation just to find one target.


You're more likely to find targets if you wardec a 30 man empire corp, than a 500 man 0.0 alliance. There is no relation between the size of an entity, and how likely you are to find them in empire. What matters is where they live.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#214 - 2012-08-28 19:10:47 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:


Statistically speaking, the chances of a fight are no where near identical. The five man corp can effortlessly find targets while the 500 man corp has to start a coordinated operation just to find one target.


You're more likely to find targets if you wardec a 30 man empire corp, than a 500 man 0.0 alliance. There is no relation between the size of an entity, and how likely you are to find them in empire. What matters is where they live.


No, they still come to empire space. If they are 500 people, you are more likely to find one of them on their trip to empire space. If they are 5 people, you have a good chance of not only not finding one, but of finding a time when NONE of them are logged in. I am sorry you don't see that the statistics are not the same, but they are not. And thus your argument that the chance of a fight is identical for either side is just wrong.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#215 - 2012-08-28 19:15:58 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
No, they still come to empire space.

Only the dumb come to empire. Non-******** people just use a hisec alt.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#216 - 2012-08-28 23:23:15 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
No, they still come to empire space.

Only the dumb come to empire. Non-******** people just use a hisec alt.

Which then makes declaring a war a complete waste of money, you aren't buying any targets at all that aren't free to shoot anyway.

Oh, yeah, and I'd like to confirm that there are no dumb people in EVE.Roll
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#217 - 2012-08-28 23:50:02 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:


he's a simple suggestion: the cost of wardecs should be based on the size of the corporation/alliance making the declaration, not the alliance you are wardeccing... if you want 8000 people to have a license to gank in empire, pay more for it... surely that makes vastly more sense than the current system and allows cost to scale with affordablity more pragmatically


If I'm being totally honest,
I'd say this actually makes more sense than the current system.

But at the same time, it's not like we're not already at war with like 90% of EVE already. Why not join one of the guys we're currently decced with?

They may have made it harder for small corps to dec large alliances, but they seem to have made it even easier for that same corp to join someone already at war.


So, an answer?
No, it doesn't really seem to make much sense, but they made it even cheaper and easier for you to go to war with large alliances by piggybacking on an already existing war dec.

However, at the same time, there's something about the idea that it shouldn't be easy for every Tom, ****, and Harry to just go to war with any large corporation they want. If you're a really small entity it seems like it makes sense that your entry into war should be harder than a larger entity. It has a kind of air of realism that a 5 man corp would have some hurdle of entry into a war with a huge block.

I guess it's the EVE equivilent of the Taliban declaring War on the western world. It's not like they have the assets to engage in a full on war with the west, so they join up with someone currently at odds with the west and blow **** up here and there to **** people off enough to get the western world to declare war on them.

EVE handles it by charging more ISK for more targets.
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#218 - 2012-09-08 17:56:12 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:


No, they still come to empire space. If they are 500 people, you are more likely to find one of them on their trip to empire space. If they are 5 people, you have a good chance of not only not finding one, but of finding a time when NONE of them are logged in. I am sorry you don't see that the statistics are not the same, but they are not. And thus your argument that the chance of a fight is identical for either side is just wrong.


It's a simple truth that you're more likely to find targets from an entity that is actually based in empire, all things considered, than one which is 0.0 based and uses out-of-alliance hauling alts.

Ergo: size of the entity is not an indication of how likely you are to find them in empire.
Sabrina Solette
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2012-09-08 18:01:53 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
Please tell me how this new wardec system is supposed to be 'better'?





Better? Who said it's supposed to be better?


It's total ****, but what do you expect when it appears the large corps are calling the shots. CSMs anyone?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#220 - 2012-09-08 18:20:43 UTC
npc corp members mad that large alliances can't be wardec'd

lol