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500m to declare war on Goonswarm? (AKA: why are small corps penalised by the wardec system?)

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Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#181 - 2012-08-20 16:20:33 UTC
Mr Clean Man wrote:
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
It cannot be logical for an 8000 man alliance to pay vastly less to start the same war as a 50 man corp. It makes absolutely no sense.


You're right, I see no reason why it should cost more to properly prepare a group of 50 people to take on a sovereign state's army of 8,000. Oh wait.

It's like asking why a midget would have to do more work to punch Shaq in the head.

Those 50 dudes will be spending more than enough on ships and resources to have any kind of effect on the 8,000. The war dec fee is charging an arm and a leg because it will cost you an arm and a leg in resources fighting them.

This war dec mechanic needs to be more dynamic and have far more options. Options like legal war in a system, constellations or region. Maybe even just low sec. Options like specific ship classes.
Anise Serine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2012-08-20 16:31:45 UTC
well it's not about wardecing goons

I like the idea of getting stuck on war, having consequences.. that's nice about the new system



actually whole empire wardec system, now costs a lot more.

from 2m-6m now its 50m per week.

Empire wardecing was the last place in solo or small gang warfare.


low sec = gate camping, usually just ganging + sec status problems

null sec = 19919893 men fleets.. being pawn and all.

in empire you can plan, trap, your target. You have chance of changing the odds with low numbers and with right planning.


One of the the problems of empire wardecing playing the "boredom" card. Well thats ok for me aswell but the thing is, with the new system opening new wars can cost up to 50m + 100m + 150m so it all totals 300m per week. It is 50 times more then 6m.. I mean WOW. I really dont see the point of increasing the cost this much.



not sure this was required
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2012-08-20 16:47:58 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Okay, let's presume the reason to disallow freighters, JFs and orcas in NPC corps is because it's abused to avoid wardecs. By that logic, this should be extended to other shiptypes as well, such as whatever is the most common ratting ship type for L4s, mining barges and above, T2 hauler ships etc.

Not only will logistics be drastically slower using the ships you mentioned above, but the cost to suicide gank one is dramatically less compared to a freighter.

I've no idea why you're bringing logistics into the mix now, since we're talking about ships being used to avoid wardecs.

Marlona Sky wrote:
"most common ratting ship type for L4s" Seriously??

Yes, and?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#184 - 2012-08-20 21:31:58 UTC
Mr Clean Man wrote:


You're right, I see no reason why it should cost more to properly prepare a group of 50 people to take on a sovereign state's army of 8,000. Oh wait.

It's like asking why a midget would have to do more work to punch Shaq in the head.


You're absolutely right, it would cost a 50 man corp a LOT to take on a soveriegn 'state' (I assume you mean claimed regions in 0.0), and would likely be impossible unless they were all in supercapitals and had allies.

But the war dec mechanic is NOTHING to do with that. It's an empire-based mechanic, nothing to do with 0.0 sovereignty. And yes, it's crazy that a large entity can dec a small entity for 50m, but if the small entity wants to do the same in return it costs them 500m. It's totally illogical and poor game design.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#185 - 2012-08-20 21:43:19 UTC
Lady Whipcrack wrote:
You're absolutely right, it would cost a 50 man corp a LOT to take on a soveriegn 'state' (I assume you mean claimed regions in 0.0), and would likely be impossible unless they were all in supercapitals and had allies.

But the war dec mechanic is NOTHING to do with that. It's an empire-based mechanic, nothing to do with 0.0 sovereignty. And yes, it's crazy that a large entity can dec a small entity for 50m, but if the small entity wants to do the same in return it costs them 500m. It's totally illogical and poor game design.

Yeah, it could cost less to get a restricted, say privateer licence.

"XXYY is allowed to shoot all ships (and pods) of YYZZ in the Jita system."

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ashrik Tyr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#186 - 2012-08-21 01:01:59 UTC
I dunno. Seems to me the only way you can make the claim that the change makes "no logical sense" or is "bad game design" is if you pretend that a context-free in-game lore type explanation is the only acceptable explanation for it. If you take the tiniest second to think that maybe the devs understand why empire players want cheap wardecs on null alliances and that maybe the devs understand exactly how those wardecs are, or will be, used, then suddenly alternative explanations are possible.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#187 - 2012-08-21 01:05:09 UTC
Amusing that you go out of your way to remind high sec residents that high sec is not safe, but demand that you be safe from them while in high sec.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2012-08-21 01:18:14 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Amusing that you go out of your way to remind high sec residents that high sec is not safe, but demand that you be safe from them while in high sec.

We need to be safe from pubbies while in hisec?

Interesting theory. The biggest annoyance factor with the old wardec system was how there was a constant stream of wardec mails to tag as "read", every single day.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#189 - 2012-08-21 02:18:42 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
you don't need to declare war in null sec. I'm confused


He'd have to warp to a gate, which is notable in the fact that a gate is not a station. If his spaceship moves away from a station he gets uneasy. Because gates are not stations.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#190 - 2012-08-21 02:20:45 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Amusing that you go out of your way to remind high sec residents that high sec is not safe, but demand that you be safe from them while in high sec.

We need to be safe from pubbies while in hisec?

Interesting theory. The biggest annoyance factor with the old wardec system was how there was a constant stream of wardec mails to tag as "read", every single day.


Yeah the only time I was ever in highsec was on my highsec alt. I think I lost a single ship once in highsec from wardecs and that was a cyno frigate.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#191 - 2012-08-21 04:24:55 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
you don't need to declare war in null sec. I'm confused

He'd have to warp to a gate, which is notable in the fact that a gate is not a station. If his spaceship moves away from a station he gets uneasy. Because gates are not stations.

At least ... the gate guns (where they exist) are being buffed?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tanaka Aiko
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#192 - 2012-08-21 05:18:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanaka Aiko
did this guy never heard of the ally option ?
big alliance always have a wardec active, he just need to side with them...
but well, not like we'll see a difference... like we care...
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#193 - 2012-08-22 10:17:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyla Skin
Richard Desturned wrote:
Nyla Skin wrote:
While its true that CCP has created a system where everything favors the large alliance


you mean to say that this "massively multiplayer online game" is inherently inclined to favor larger groups?

you don't say, i will tweet everyone in the gaming media about this with haste


"Massively multiplayer" doesn't imply they should all be in the same blob. They can still interact with everyone else even if they were all solo.

Kids these days...

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#194 - 2012-08-22 10:59:55 UTC
Nyla Skin wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Nyla Skin wrote:
While its true that CCP has created a system where everything favors the large alliance


you mean to say that this "massively multiplayer online game" is inherently inclined to favor larger groups?

you don't say, i will tweet everyone in the gaming media about this with haste


"Massively multiplayer" doesn't imply they should all be in the same blob. They can still interact with everyone else even if they were all solo.

Kids these days...


"Massively multiplayer" doesn't imply they should all be in the same blob.
"Sandbox" implies that they can.

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.
Ashrik Tyr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#195 - 2012-08-22 11:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashrik Tyr
Marlona Sky wrote:
Amusing that you go out of your way to remind high sec residents that high sec is not safe, but demand that you be safe from them while in high sec.

I demand nothing, nor do I go to hi-sec on this character, I just see what's obvious.

Empire people want free ganks on dumb null people who are alone in hi-sec and they want to use the wardec system to do this. The devs, obviously, don't want the wardec system to be used for this. They probably want it to be used for wars, most likely between empire-space corps/alliances; which I say because the entire wardec system is a facsimile of nullsec, writ small.
Aracimia Wolfe
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#196 - 2012-08-22 12:34:01 UTC
When living out in Null any wardec on you is an almost laughable concept.

"Oh noes my neutral trader alts can't...ohwait"

Wardec's should be designed with Hi/Lowsec in mind.

In other news, being unable to poay 500 mill to dec goons is akin to not being able to afford SBU's when invading their space.................

Kill it with Fire!

Lord LazyGhost
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#197 - 2012-08-22 13:28:47 UTC
logicaly the larger the allaince the more they sould pay to war dec somone. it sould be based on the size of the deccing corp/aliance

as the wardecc its self is a bribe to concord to allow fighting to take place. so there for logicaly havig more pilots concord would requiore a larger bribe to turn ablind eye to so may people being able to fight. where as havig a small 5 man corp would be cheap as a small 5 man gang will make less paper work for said concord to have to cover up. if you catch my drift. IE your mate works the doors on a club and u go to itn he mmay let you in for free. but you got with 100 of your friends iam sure he cant let them all in or he is going to want a proportion off the discounted entry free )
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#198 - 2012-08-22 15:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Aracimia Wolfe wrote:
When living out in Null any wardec on you is an almost laughable concept.

"Oh noes my neutral trader alts can't...ohwait"

Wardec's should be designed with Hi/Lowsec in mind.

In other news, being unable to poay 500 mill to dec goons is akin to not being able to afford SBU's when invading their space.................


To be quite honest I don't think you should be able to undock any kind of industrial ship (or indeed anything bigger than a t1 cruiser) while being in an npc corp.

NPC corp protected Freighters and such is a fiasco.

The first stage of giving wardec system teeth is dealing with the largest source of wardec evasion in the game (veteran players using npc corps).

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#199 - 2012-08-22 16:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara
Jade Constantine wrote:
Aracimia Wolfe wrote:
When living out in Null any wardec on you is an almost laughable concept.

"Oh noes my neutral trader alts can't...ohwait"

Wardec's should be designed with Hi/Lowsec in mind.

In other news, being unable to poay 500 mill to dec goons is akin to not being able to afford SBU's when invading their space.................


To be quite honest I don't think you should be able to undock any kind of industrial ship (or indeed anything bigger than a t1 cruiser) while being in an npc corp.

NPC corp protected Freighters and such is a fiasco.

The first stage of giving wardec system teeth is dealing with the largest source of wardec evasion in the game (veteran players using npc corps).
As a counterpoint, many vets choose to use closely-held alt corps for their high-sec logistics rather than NPC corps.

What criteria do you propose be used to bar characters from joining NPC corps?

Edit: re-read Jade's post.... I don't like the imposition of such granular rules in EVE. The phrase "slippery slope" comes to mind in terms of where will the rules on game play end. As does the phrase "designing the game to force players into other players' preferred play-styles."

Edit #2: Furthermore, no high-sec freighter is safe against an opponent with the numbers, tactics and proper ship types. It really isn't all that difficult to snag a freighter with the Tier 3 BCs and their BS-class damage.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Lady Whipcrack
Doomheim
#200 - 2012-08-24 13:52:52 UTC
Lord LazyGhost wrote:
logicaly the larger the allaince the more they sould pay to war dec somone. it sould be based on the size of the deccing corp/aliance

as the wardecc its self is a bribe to concord to allow fighting to take place. so there for logicaly havig more pilots concord would requiore a larger bribe to turn ablind eye to so may people being able to fight. where as havig a small 5 man corp would be cheap as a small 5 man gang will make less paper work for said concord to have to cover up. if you catch my drift. IE your mate works the doors on a club and u go to itn he mmay let you in for free. but you got with 100 of your friends iam sure he cant let them all in or he is going to want a proportion off the discounted entry free )


I completely agree. The existing system is the opposite of 'logical'.