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logoff gatecamp - exploit?
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Pipa Porto Likes received: 1,548	#21 - 2012-08-06 19:49:32 UTC Xuixien wrote: It actually is considered an exploit, but many people mistakenly believe it's not due to the fact that it is rarely enforced (due to the difficulty in doing so). If you think it's an exploit, find the ruling that says it is. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone -RubyPorto

Xuixien

Solar Winds Security Solutions

Likes received: 1,997

#22 - 2012-08-06 20:00:11 UTC

Pipa Porto wrote:

Xuixien wrote:

It actually is considered an exploit, but many people mistakenly believe it's not due to the fact that it is rarely enforced (due to the difficulty in doing so).

If you think it's an exploit, find the ruling that says it is.

Lots of things are bannable/considered exploits but not expressly written as such, and the only way you find out is warning/ban from a GM. Find where it's illegal to rename a can "you" and then scramble it to trick people into CONCORDing themselves. I bet you won't find it. But I bet you'll get banned if you run around doing it and people report you enough.

vOv Just one of those things. We are dealing with CCP, after all - they're not into the whole "SPACESHIP LAWYERS" thing.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

HellrisCorp 61
Fairren HellrisCorp Likes received: 61	#23 - 2012-08-06 23:17:41 UTC Was there ever dev explanation as to why this is supposedly hard to police? There is already some record of when people log in (i.e. "last online" in corp member list is possible), and there is obviously going to be a record of ships destroyed (kill mails). I don't get it.

Xuixien

Solar Winds Security Solutions

Likes received: 1,997

#24 - 2012-08-06 23:42:06 UTC

Fairren wrote:

Was there ever dev explanation as to why this is supposedly hard to police? There is already some record of when people log in (i.e. "last online" in corp member list is possible), and there is obviously going to be a record of ships destroyed (kill mails). I don't get it.

Because that would require :effort:.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Pinky Feldman

Amarrian Vengeance

Ragequit Cancel Sub

Likes received: 750

#25 - 2012-08-07 01:17:25 UTC

Zyella Stormborn wrote:

Pinky Feldman wrote:

Xuixien wrote:

It actually is considered an exploit, but many people mistakenly believe it's not due to the fact that it is rarely enforced (due to the difficulty in doing so).

Its not an exploit. It would be absolutely ludicrous if connecting to the game could potentially be considered an exploit. Even if I openly admit to using logoffskis on the forums and have fraps video footage of me performing logoffskis with further comms documentation stating that i'm about to perform a logoffski, i'm not going to get banned.

The only time that logoffskis can be considered an exploit is if you abuse other game mechanics in the process. For example, there used to be a bug that allowed you to logoff while undocking from a station and then when you reconnected you would immediately appear on the undock without an emergency warp.

They aren't talking about a person logging into the game and you know it. They are talking about a GROUP of people, all of which logged off at same time, in same place, logging back in at exactly the same time, after dropping a mechanic in game to use (bubble). That doesn't 'accidentally' happen, nor does the timing for a disconnect happen like that situation happen more often than hitting the lottery does. ;)

Is it effective? Undeniably.
Is it cheap play? lol hell yes.
Is it considered an exploit? I believe technically yes.
Is it enforceable? Almost utterly impossible (unless its one of the devs that happens to be the person you drop that trap on. Would be interesting to see what their reaction is then, lol).

Not much you can do about it, other than as stated above: Never warp directly, which I learned my 2nd day in 0.0, you never do anyway if at all possible.

The bubble situation the OP mentioned is fair play and no different than a logoffski on a gate since you still have your e-warp upon login. I can guarantee you as someone who knows people who consistently skirt the edges of whats allowable within the game, that simple group logoffskis aren't going to get you banned even if you go around parading openly that you do it. I know people who regularly get petitioned for doing logoffskis, where its quite clear what they're doing, and they've never once even gotten a GM warning. The point is, connecting to the game is never considered an exploit.

Is it cheesy? Yes. Does it upset people? Yes. Does it get kills? Yes. Is it an exploit that will get you banned? No. Worst case scenario if it is proven and admitted what you're doing you'll get a warning first, so its hardly an issue.

The moar you cry the less you pee

Pipa Porto

Likes received: 1,548

#26 - 2012-08-07 01:17:40 UTC

Xuixien wrote:

Pipa Porto wrote:

Xuixien wrote:

It actually is considered an exploit, but many people mistakenly believe it's not due to the fact that it is rarely enforced (due to the difficulty in doing so).

If you think it's an exploit, find the ruling that says it is.

Renaming cans isn't an exploit. They did change the way notifications were formatted, though.

If you think it's an exploit, petition and get a ruling from a GM that says that logging into the game is considered an exploit. Roll

I see no reason to believe that logging into the game is or ever was classified as an exploit.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Pinky Feldman

Amarrian Vengeance

Ragequit Cancel Sub

Likes received: 750

#27 - 2012-08-07 01:21:52 UTC

Fairren wrote:

Because not only is it difficult to prove, its not uncommon for the gankee to think they got logoffski'd when they actually didn't because it never occurs to them the enemy gang could have been hiding in a side system or in a wormhole. I got accused of logoffskis a lot when I was in empire, when in reality most of the time it was having good eyes and being able to properly judge gate distances and timing.

The moar you cry the less you pee

Xuixien

Solar Winds Security Solutions

Likes received: 1,997

#28 - 2012-08-07 01:29:33 UTC

I like how Pinky says that logoffskis aren't illegal because people she knows use the tactic without repercussions...

... but then a couple of posts later proceeds to explain why they aren't being banned, and the reason is because it's hard to police, not because it's actually legal.

Don't you ever change Pinky. Not never.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist


Xuixien Solar Winds Security Solutions Likes received: 1,997	#29 - 2012-08-07 01:30:00 UTC Pipa Porto wrote: I see no reason to believe that logging into the game is or ever was classified as an exploit. Facts > rhetoric. mmkay? *Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist*


Pipa Porto Likes received: 1,548	#30 - 2012-08-07 01:42:25 UTC \| Edited by: Pipa Porto Xuixien wrote: Pipa Porto wrote: I see no reason to believe that logging into the game is or ever was classified as an exploit. Facts > rhetoric. mmkay? Agreed, so post Facts then. Where have you seen any official indication that it's an exploit? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone -RubyPorto

Pinky Feldman

Amarrian Vengeance

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Likes received: 750

#31 - 2012-08-07 05:45:46 UTC | Edited by: Pinky Feldman

Xuixien wrote:

It was a totally different response to someone asking why its hard to police. And regarding asking the legality, these are people who are constantly in contact with the GMs because they get petitioned constantly and go out of their way to make sure what they're doing is legal. You are bad at reading and an even worse troll. The point still remains that making it an exploit to connect to the game is absolutely absurd. Write a petition asking a GM if log-on traps are legal and I guarantee they'll say yes.

You've been repeatedly asked to present proof that logging into the game can be considered an exploit in certain cases and just skirt around the question.

The moar you cry the less you pee


Pinky Feldman Amarrian Vengeance Ragequit Cancel Sub Likes received: 750	#32 - 2012-08-07 05:52:05 UTC \| Edited by: Pinky Feldman ... The moar you cry the less you pee

Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 399
Gorn Arming Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State Likes received: 399	#33 - 2012-08-07 14:26:39 UTC The logoff trap is legal and will remain so until it ceases to be the only way to kill ratting bots.

AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 484
Gibbo3771 AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse Likes received: 484	#34 - 2012-08-07 23:19:55 UTC Its the only way to catch carrier bots in anoms, due to the 10 second scan time and warp time, hes already gone. So log off in the site with wrecks, hope it was his. Works 90% of the time.

School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 2,776
PotatoOverdose School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State Likes received: 2,776	#35 - 2012-08-08 01:50:14 UTC Fact 1: The logoff trap is a tactic almost as old as eve itself. Fact 2: No one in this thread has provided a link to any official source stating that logoff traps are against the rules.

Aleis

Playboy Enterprises

Dark Taboo

Likes received: 0

#36 - 2012-08-10 18:06:29 UTC | Edited by: Aleis

To help out a little, this has been brought up A lot. It is not a new tactic and there are a few things

1. CP has repeatedly said "NO"

2. If it was an exploit this thread would have been deleted and you would have gotten an official warning for telling people how to use an exploit.

3. Yes it's cheap, petty, cowardly, and really just shows you how little these people care about those sorts of ideals. You know like Pirates.

Pipa Porto

Likes received: 1,548

#37 - 2012-08-10 19:07:05 UTC

By the way,
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=117249#post117249

GM Karidor wrote:

2) Loggoffski/loggonski
Not an exploit at all, and never has been. We won’t punish people for logging out of and into the game (even if they happen to log in all at about the same time and location that happens to be inconvenient for you).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Corina Jarr

en Welle Shipping Inc.

Likes received: 1,380

#38 - 2012-08-10 22:32:25 UTC

Pipa Porto wrote:

By the way,
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=117249#post117249

GM Karidor wrote:

Nice and clear.

Also, interestingly, I've found I show up in local and people say hi before my screen even loads upon character select. Not slow either, just a second or so.

Pinky Feldman

Amarrian Vengeance

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Likes received: 750

#39 - 2012-08-12 12:50:49 UTC | Edited by: Pinky Feldman

Xuixien wrote:

It actually is considered an exploit, but many people mistakenly believe it's not due to the fact that it is rarely enforced (due to the difficulty in doing so).

GM Karidor wrote:

Facts > rhetoric. mmkay?

Don't you ever change Xuixien. Not never.

The moar you cry the less you pee

C5 Flight Fraternity. 42
Sehanine C5 Flight Fraternity. Likes received: 42	#40 - 2012-08-12 13:08:57 UTC 1 Xuixien wrote: Pipa Porto wrote: I see no reason to believe that logging into the game is or ever was classified as an exploit. Facts > rhetoric. mmkay? I think I remember the last time you broke out an argument like that it didn't end well for you either. I second Pinky's motion that you not change, not never.