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Sub-BS L4 ship
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Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-08-06 22:44:11 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Loki and Proteus are quite fun to run L4s in, and brilliant for running the epic arcs if you want to give them a try. (Proteus for gal/cal, loki for amarr/minmatar)


Not to derail this thread, but any fit ideas for a caldari epic proteus? I am intrigued by the idea. I have done the gallente and minmatar arcs so far with a dominix and tengu alt. but I would prefer something that I could do it solo and not as slow and bulky as the dominix.
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#22 - 2012-08-06 22:45:18 UTC
Nighthawk is my choice. Plain T2 fitted Nighthawk does only slightly less DPS than a Tengu, but has a native bonus for killing small ships (advanced scrambling frigates melt with Scourge Precision). You can either fit an afterburner (cap stable) or microwarp drive (my choice). Oh... and it has 5 small drones.
Joneleth Rein
#23 - 2012-08-06 23:21:08 UTC
Since no one actually mentioned I'll go ahead and say it.

Ammo...Because there are times when I feel i'm throwing ISK strapped on a missile booster at the pirate battleships. (Using a tengu).

But this isn't just with the Tengu. A smaller hull will generally mean smaller volleys even if the DPS is on-par or better than a BS( specially a low-skilled BS). Not realllyyy a problem but hey :P Plus at some point it you'r just counting volleys. "8 for that BS...12 for that...8 for that...Wonder how many BS I can blow up before reloading again... "

Other than that, since i've actually run L4 with the ships you mentioned, the first thing you'll notice is that you have to remember you'r flying a cruiser and move. As a smaller hull staying still, even mission rats can kill you .Personally I use the AB+PithC medium booster, perma-running the AB and just pulsing the booster once in a while to maintain the shields. Speed-tanking has proven more than enough to hold through anything,as long as you deal with the webs/scram first.

Speed is another great improvement. Although it takes longer to finish bigger BS spawns it's faster if you'r aiming to go through a larger number of missions. Mobility is nice and less boring too.

Tengu-wise, you might also find it annoying that it has a boost on kinetic dmg. If you'r sticking to serpentis/guristas it's not an issue,but you can't exploit the damage hole of other rats to it's full extent anymore. (like a navy raven does e.g).

Spider Pig! Spider Pig! Does what a Spider Pig does.. Can he swing? From a web.. No he can't. He's a pig.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-08-06 23:38:04 UTC
Joneleth Rein wrote:
Tengu-wise, you might also find it annoying that it has a boost on kinetic dmg. If you'r sticking to serpentis/guristas it's not an issue,but you can't exploit the damage hole of other rats to it's full extent anymore. (like a navy raven does e.g).


So because a Raven has no specific damage bonus it can exploit the non-kinetic holes better? Yea that makes sense.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#25 - 2012-08-07 00:00:53 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Joneleth Rein wrote:
Tengu-wise, you might also find it annoying that it has a boost on kinetic dmg. If you'r sticking to serpentis/guristas it's not an issue,but you can't exploit the damage hole of other rats to it's full extent anymore. (like a navy raven does e.g).


So because a Raven has no specific damage bonus it can exploit the non-kinetic holes better? Yea that makes sense.


Umm. RoF bonus still counts as a damage bonus, right?
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-08-07 00:36:04 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Joneleth Rein wrote:
Tengu-wise, you might also find it annoying that it has a boost on kinetic dmg. If you'r sticking to serpentis/guristas it's not an issue,but you can't exploit the damage hole of other rats to it's full extent anymore. (like a navy raven does e.g).


So because a Raven has no specific damage bonus it can exploit the non-kinetic holes better? Yea that makes sense.


Umm. RoF bonus still counts as a damage bonus, right?


Umm, missing the point. I was trying to keep it short as to not confuse the matter.

Raven gets a ROF bonus.
Tengu gets a ROF bonus.

Tengu also gets a kinetic missile damage bonus.

So because the Raven doesnt get a kinetic damage bonus it can exploit non-kinetic damage holes better?

You can still shoot non-kinetic missiles in a Tengu, and get the same ROF bonus that the raven does.

Just seemed like some odd logic.

Does that spell it out better?
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#27 - 2012-08-07 00:44:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Derath Ellecon wrote:


Umm, missing the point. I was trying to keep it short as to not confuse the matter.

Raven gets a ROF bonus.
Tengu gets a ROF bonus.

Tengu also gets a kinetic missile damage bonus.

So because the Raven doesnt get a kinetic damage bonus it can exploit non-kinetic damage holes better?

You can still shoot non-kinetic missiles in a Tengu, and get the same ROF bonus that the raven does.

Just seemed like some odd logic.

Does that spell it out better?


CNR changes to EM missiles, loses no damage. Tengu changes to EM missiles, loses 25% damage.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-08-07 00:55:03 UTC
Paikis wrote:
CNR changes to EM missiles, loses no damage. Tengu changes to EM missiles, loses 25% damage.

Does that spell it out better?


Still a spurious argument at best.

If a Raven switches to EM to hit EM weak rats he will do better effective damage against that enemy.
If a Tengu (even with it's kinetic bonus) hits better against an EM weak rat with EM missile he will still do better than if he stuck with kinetic.

So kinetic bonus or not, the Tengu can still benefit from using non kinetic missiles against the appropriate target exactly like the Raven.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#29 - 2012-08-07 01:26:49 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Paikis wrote:
CNR changes to EM missiles, loses no damage. Tengu changes to EM missiles, loses 25% damage.

Does that spell it out better?


Still a spurious argument at best.

If a Raven switches to EM to hit EM weak rats he will do better effective damage against that enemy.
If a Tengu (even with it's kinetic bonus) hits better against an EM weak rat with EM missile he will still do better than if he stuck with kinetic.

So kinetic bonus or not, the Tengu can still benefit from using non kinetic missiles against the appropriate target exactly like the Raven.



Semantics are wonderful aren't they?

No matter how you spin this, the Tengu loses both effective and raw damage against a non-kinetic weak enemy. The CNR does not and will have the same raw damage regardless of what type of ammo it fires. Effective damage will vary from target to target, but there is no massive loss of damage from firing non-kinetic missiles.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#30 - 2012-08-07 01:41:26 UTC
Rattlesnake can tank/dps and still have room for a good MWD.

You can get 855 m/s if your skills are up.

Has plenty of cap to get to gates and mission items.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#31 - 2012-08-07 05:25:55 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Loki and Proteus are quite fun to run L4s in, and brilliant for running the epic arcs if you want to give them a try. (Proteus for gal/cal, loki for amarr/minmatar)


Not to derail this thread, but any fit ideas for a caldari epic proteus? I am intrigued by the idea. I have done the gallente and minmatar arcs so far with a dominix and tengu alt. but I would prefer something that I could do it solo and not as slow and bulky as the dominix.

This could possibly be optimized a bit better, but it should let you complete both the gal and caldari arcs with relatively little difficulty.

[quote]
[Proteus, gallente arc]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Federation Navy Armor Thermic Hardener
Federation Navy Armor Kinetic Hardener
Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

10MN Afterburner II
Large Capacitor Battery II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5
[/qupte]

thhief ghabmoef
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#32 - 2012-08-07 13:37:50 UTC
Joneleth Rein wrote:

Other than that, since i've actually run L4 with the ships you mentioned, the first thing you'll notice is that you have to remember you'r flying a cruiser and move. As a smaller hull staying still, even mission rats can kill you .Personally I use the AB+PithC medium booster, perma-running the AB and just pulsing the booster once in a while to maintain the shields. Speed-tanking has proven more than enough to hold through anything,as long as you deal with the webs/scram first.


Well, I don't have that issue with passive tanked plain t2 Nighthawk. The only two situations where I actually use MWD (or even move for that matter) is
- that Serpentis mission with heavy damps where you can't lock anything beyond 20-ish kms until you kill the dampening rats;
- moving to a gate to the next pocket;

I'm very comfortable sitting in one place in any other L4 mission.
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