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Cloak's and afk cloakers
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Doddy
Excidium.
#161 - 2012-08-22 13:51:07 UTC
Gabrielle Lamb wrote:
Shizuken wrote:

How about something easier and kess detrimental to regular cloak users? Add a tachyon probe for probe launchers that lets you scan down cloaked ships. Long scan time and low signature strength so people on the move are fine, but those at rest for long periods are sitting ducks...

/solveproblem
/stopwhine


Nah, what the heck is the problem with letting people operate solo in 0.0? Because this is basically what the cloak lets you do, and it's the only kind of defense, other then spending hours jumping from safespot to safespot, that lets you do this.

If you remove cloaking, 0.0 becomes nothing but a pure bruteforce arena. If you get a solo explorer in one of your systems you just grab 15-20 guys, set up gatecamps at all gates, Tachyon probe him down and kill him. And the only alternative left for him is to log off and pray he doesn't get killed before his minute is over.



I don't think you get what was suggested at all. Long scan time means they will never find him unless he is actually afk for hours (in which case he should have just logged off which you can do 100% safe unless you do something really stupid like logging on grid with a prober). If he changes position they will not find him and you have this gang sitting around twiddling their thumbs while one of them is probing down a guy who isn't there any more. No one will do that.

The real problem with it is that it won't make the carebears any safer seeing as the guys they are scared of are not really afk cloakers, they are guys who come back periodically to check for targets and thus could easily change position. This sounds good to me but won't stop thetears. This thread is not a moan about afk cloakers, its a moan about might not be afk cloakers.
Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
#162 - 2012-08-22 13:52:20 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
[quote=Apo Lyptica]I think we pretty much agree that afk cloakers are a problem. So how about this-


AFK cloakers cant do **** to you, they can't even actively report intel on you.



Wow I didnt know TeamSpeak or Mummble or Ventrillo didnt work while you were cloaked. How did they do that????


Do you know what AFK means?
Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#163 - 2012-08-22 13:56:07 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
The only real problem I have with afk cloakers is the T3 ships being able to both cloak and use interdiction nullifier at the same time...

But promoting afk play is a really really bad feature... I dont care about people cloaking in system all day long if I know they are playing. just as I am forced to actually play if I want to achieve something else.



afk is doing nothing and you can even catch cloaky t3 beeing nullified if you know how to do it.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#164 - 2012-08-22 13:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Roime wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Requiring some other kind of fuel will ruin deep/longer-term reconnaissance.


No fuel doesn't ruin it at all, just makes it more interesting. Covopses could get a bonus to fuel consumption, and Cloaking skill could also decrease consumption. Cloaking huge ships like Orcas would gobble up fuel.

I don't care a bit about nullbears and their AFK cloaking issues, I just see the cloak as a very powerful module, and being able to use such a tool forever counterintuitive and lame.

Just like real long-term recon operations can't go on forever without resupplying, cloakers would just need to load fuel every now and then.

Quote:
Both of these facts support the notion that complainers are being completely dishonest, imo. They don't care about afk players (and why would they, someone who is afk can't do anything) but are in fact desperately trying to make the game easier for themselves, and harder for their enemies.


You could just as well say that opposing any changes to forevercloaking is trying to keep the game easy for themselves and harder for their enemies, but my motivation is to make it more interesting and dynamic for all. WH space is infested with cloaky alts, would it really be worse for the game, if there would be a small window in time where they would be exposed?

Think about, what is cooler: being able to spy without any chance of ever getting caught, or spying knowing that in two days your corpie needs to bring you more fuel, and your targets might guesstimate when your fuel runs out and are prepared? Or trying to get into a hostile system to save that cloaker?



As someone who lives in wormhole space, and has done medium-to-long term reconnaissance ... just no. No no no. To all the stuff you said. No. It doesn't make things "interesting" it makes certain things completely infeasible. For a start, organising a refuelling run for a corpmate/yourself every couple of days when you're in a hostile c6 is just a terrible, awful idea, and secondly... if I end up unable to cloak because I couldn't get a route in/out in time to refuel, then that's also damn awful.

So again, no.

There is absolutely no need to come up with ridiculous, horrifically game breaking "fixes" to something that isn't a problem at all.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#165 - 2012-08-22 14:04:07 UTC
Apo Lyptica wrote:
I think we pretty much agree that afk cloakers are a problem.


No, we can't.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Via Shivon
#166 - 2012-08-22 14:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Via Shivon
The problem is not cloaking itself.

The problem is 23/7 afk cloakt alt's in miner, ratter systems blocking them and you dont know when he will maybe attack you or hotdrop you.
im not a hardcore miner or ratter, but he can not be killed even with a high time/isk investment (scanning , maybe cloakscannship) and that sucks.

You just can do NOTHING to kill him - but for him = no risk for reward, when he made it to the system

and im ******* shure i will not rat with a neut in the system with a 2b ship to make them happy hotdropping.
i will just loggoff and play something else, because im to lazy to move with 2-3 accounts for 1 hour ratting, than im bored anyway :P
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#167 - 2012-08-22 14:10:08 UTC
Like I already mentioned, I also live in w-space and do long-term recon. I just don't see much value in keeping it 100% risk free, disposable alt job as it now is. I like excitement, risk and having to plan and work for any gains. And system Intel certainly is a huge gain.

2 days is probably too short, idk, maybe a week for a fuel consumption-rigged covops with Cloaking IV?

Oh and running out of fuel could also mean that you are awful, not the mechanic ;-)

.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#168 - 2012-08-22 14:22:26 UTC  |  Edited by: BoBoZoBo
Forget "AFK cloakers" until you can prove they are AFK, the argument is invalid until proof is available. Plenty of people have the patience to stay cloaked for hours stalking while very much sitting in front of they keyboard. So until you can actually prove the difference. Your argument and solution is caca.

Fuel for cloaks would render extended recon operations useless and tedious on the level of POS fueling. We don't need more of that just to make you feel better while you solo AFK mine.

I am for more risk and making it more interesting, but adding a fuel requirement isn't interesting. Catching the cloaker like that just ammounts to "DERP... ran out of fuel" There is no excitement there. Make the people being watched work for the counter-intelligence. Make the chase fun.

The is EVE, work for your kill.

The only real counter I am for when it comes to cloaks is in some active module for some ships or high level SOV systems that can "PING" the location of a covert ship.

For the ships - Maybe a mod that has a chance of revealing (not decloaking) the general direction of cloaked ships on grid. Or maybe you need to deploy special (expensive/highskill/limited) probes and pin them down like any other sig/anom. Only to be used on a limited type of ships with penalties.

For SOV system - maybe a big anchorable structure than pings every hour, with a chance to do a system wide decloak for 1 minute. Then you need to have playing members on hand to quickly use regular probe/scan methods to work for the kill.

This will make it more like cat & mouse, will require recon to be more attentive in certain situations and gets the people being spied on a chance to track down of at least pester the stalker back, maybe even kill them. This way everyone works for their kill or survival.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
Gronn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2012-08-22 14:26:37 UTC
Who cares? If they are AFK, they are of no concern to you anyway.
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#170 - 2012-08-22 14:32:44 UTC
Via Shivon wrote:
The problem is not cloaking itself.

The problem is 23/7 afk cloakt alt's in miner, ratter systems blocking them and you dont know when he will maybe attack you or hotdrop you.
im not a hardcore miner or ratter, but he can not be killed even with a high time/isk investment (scanning , maybe cloakscannship) and that sucks.

You just can do NOTHING to kill him - but for him = no risk for reward, when he made it to the system

and im ******* shure i will not rat with a neut in the system with a 2b ship to make them happy hotdropping.
i will just loggoff and play something else, because im to lazy to move with 2-3 accounts for 1 hour ratting, than im bored anyway :P


So you log out because you are scared that there could be [insert any possibility here]. That's fine.

But Im just wondering: What "reward" does one gain when being afk in a system that makes you want to kill him?

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#171 - 2012-08-22 14:49:58 UTC
Via Shivon wrote:
...
and im ******* shure i will not rat with a neut in the system with a 2b ship to make them happy hotdropping.


I found your problem.

Learn to rat aligned in and in a cheaper ship.

Your particular brand of (not) thinking is exactly why people cloak in your system.

Who knew goonswarm had whiny nullbears too? :)

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
ShiftyMcFly's Second Cousin
Doomheim
#172 - 2012-08-22 15:06:21 UTC  |  Edited by: ShiftyMcFly's Second Cousin
The only problem with AFK cloakers is how badly they are misunderstood.
They need a support group or something; AFK Cloakers Anonymous (AFKCA). Of course that means a delayed local.
Din Chao
#173 - 2012-08-22 15:11:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Din Chao
BoBoZoBo wrote:
We don't need more of that just to make you feel better while you solo AFK mine.

I guarantee the guy mining with 6 Retrievers I bothered in null the other day would love to nerf cloaks... but you know he loves that giant ore hold that allows him to AFK his ass off.
Josef Djugashvilis
#174 - 2012-08-22 15:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Some miners complain about being in essentially unarmed ships, and being ganked.

Here we have folk in whatever fully armed ship they wish to be in, complaining about afk cloakers, who, by defintion cannot harm them.

Only in Eve.

This is not a signature.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#175 - 2012-08-22 15:12:41 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Via Shivon wrote:
The problem is not cloaking itself.

The problem is 23/7 afk cloakt alt's in miner, ratter systems blocking them and you dont know when he will maybe attack you or hotdrop you.
im not a hardcore miner or ratter, but he can not be killed even with a high time/isk investment (scanning , maybe cloakscannship) and that sucks.

You just can do NOTHING to kill him - but for him = no risk for reward, when he made it to the system

and im ******* shure i will not rat with a neut in the system with a 2b ship to make them happy hotdropping.
i will just loggoff and play something else, because im to lazy to move with 2-3 accounts for 1 hour ratting, than im bored anyway :P


You claim "no risk for reward" for the AFK cloaker, but that is not true. He is AFK. He cannot kill you. There is no reward. There is no activity, no gain, no loss, no anything for the AFK cloaker. If he hotdrops you then he clearly wasn't AFK, and its a case of "working as intended" and HTFU

If you choose not to rat while he's in system, that's your fault.
If you refuse to move a single system over, where he's not present, that is again your fault.
You chose to live in nullsec, where getting shot or hotdropped is a possibility. If you can't handle that possibility then take your unnecessarily overpriced carebear ships back to hisec. Nullsec is not your own personal little safe playground. Get that through your damn skulls.

Summary: Terrible nullbears are terrible.
Wingmate
Perkone
Caldari State
#176 - 2012-08-22 16:32:37 UTC
Via Shivon wrote:
Who knew goonswarm had whiny nullbears too? :)


everyone

i make spreadsheets for pretty cheap. contact me for more info.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=197433
Victoria Dallocort
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2012-08-22 17:25:38 UTC
OK, clearly some people are really dumb and need this explained cause they cant figure it out.

Boys, Girls, the problem with AFK cloakers, is not that they are dangerous. They are AFK, mmmkey? they cant do anything being AFK. The problem is, you cant tell appart an AFK cloaker from an active cloaker. The active cloaker will **** you up. So you treat both of them, the same way.

Garreth Vlox wrote:

If he is currently ******* you up then he was not AFK cloaked but just cloaked waiting for you to make a dumb.


If someone is playing cloaked, staying that way hours waiting for the right moment. He has my respect, and if he gets me, then good for him.
Its not with him i got a problem.

Its with the guy that cloaks and pretends to be him, while he is not even playing.

admiral root wrote:
Victoria Dallocort wrote:
The whole idea of AFK cloaking, is the risk of a hotdrop when they get you. Thats the whole point of it. If you ignore the AFK cloaker, he can and likely will **** you up.


Please explain to the class how an AFK cloaker can do this.


Well, its pretty simple, an active cloaker hunting for targets, will do that to you. An AFK cloaker, pretends to be an active cloaker, while he is not.

If CCP makes AFK cloaking impossible, then you would know that if a neut/red is cloaked in your system, someone is flying that ship. You still get ******, but by another player, and that is 100% true to eve.

Its really amazing how many people read "AFK cloakers" as "cloakers".
AFK <--- Thats the importan bit you dumbasses.

CCP should take action to make ANY AFK activity impossible.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2012-08-22 17:32:50 UTC
Apo Lyptica wrote:
I think we pretty much agree that afk cloakers are a problem. So how about this-

Compounding capacitor use per cycle.

Example- 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, 400, 450 cap use

Now you ask what about ships who are supposed to use cloaks? Add in a bonus, either flat or per t2 skill. But at the same time, balance it out so a ship that is SUPPOSED to cloak can do so for about an 1.5 hours with out specialized fitting.

Sound good?

Your premise is flawed. All ships with a high slot and adequate PG+CPU are SUPPOSED to be able to fit and use a cloak. SO your bonus would have to apply to almost all ships in the game except freighters and shuttles and maybe a few more.

P.S. My previous post vanished, so sorry if this turns out to be a double post.
Victoria Dallocort
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2012-08-22 17:33:39 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:


You claim "no risk for reward" for the AFK cloaker, but that is not true. He is AFK. He cannot kill you. There is no reward. There is no activity, no gain, no loss, no anything for the AFK cloaker. If he hotdrops you then he clearly wasn't AFK, and its a case of "working as intended" and HTFU

If you choose not to rat while he's in system, that's your fault.
If you refuse to move a single system over, where he's not present, that is again your fault.
You chose to live in nullsec, where getting shot or hotdropped is a possibility. If you can't handle that possibility then take your unnecessarily overpriced carebear ships back to hisec. Nullsec is not your own personal little safe playground. Get that through your damn skulls.

Summary: Terrible nullbears are terrible.


There is a clear reward for an AFK cloaker, he interrupts his enemies isk making activities. Thats a MAYOR gain, and he is doing that AFK.

If someone should be able to cause such an impact on his enemy, he at least should be there playing to do it.

Moving a system over?? are you dumb? cant cope with math?? check how many low and nullsec systems are in eve, check how many active accounts have ANY major alliance. Quite easily every single low/nullsec system in eve can have its own wing of AFK cloakers going for 23/7.

You talk so much about wormhole space, well, go there and shut the **** up. low and nullsec do not generate the same income as WH space, hence the risk is different.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Nullsec is not your own personal little safe playground


Let me help you out moron, keyword there. PLAY. its not AFKground, its PLAYground. See the difference?
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#180 - 2012-08-22 17:34:36 UTC
I like AFK cloaking.

Now with 100% less Troll.