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Planned lowsec sentry "fix" - you guys serious?

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Tesal
#641 - 2012-08-06 04:53:09 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
Edit - Sorry about the wall o text, I started typing and it happen.

Honest question,

If whats stopping people entering losec is gate camps, cause they are always on gate. Why can't these people just form up and jump on into the gate camp together and lol stomp it? if they Orca out and away then at lease the gates now safe.

If a gate is 24/7 camped, its because no one in eve cares enough to stop it.

Now I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure there are ways around gates. Scouting mostly and not using Auto Pilot shortest route, but that's just me. People die to camps because they choose on that day to not scout ahead when entering dangerous space. It happens, move on.

The camps are not the problem with losec population. The problem is things to do. Why would anyone mine in losec? Its barely better then high sec in the belts, and thou they're small grav sites. The chances of being left alone in a system once a person Dscans a hulk or orca are zero.

People in null will disagree, wrongly might I add. Wormhole people will laugh and not give a **** cause they KNOW I'm wrong, but losec is far and away the most dangerous place in eve to live. In losec pretty much everyone you see is looking too kill you. Its that simple. They're no mass groupings of blues. Not even in FW where either stupid pilots or just plan blue killers, your allies will shoot you.

Losec has the second lowest population, but the second highest kills. This is simply because everyone is basically there too shoot you. The reason for this, is losec has nothing else worth doing. Well 99% of the time, the odd DED site drops some nice stuff but thats all.

If CCP want more people roaming losec, living in losec and traveling around losec. High level dps from gate guns, and insta locking tackle frigs being able to gcc is not the fix.

And too this stupid "Well learn to hunt" crowd. In space with has many paths and roaming scouts. Catching your targets on a gate as they roam, is hunting. Very few people in losec actually sit on entry gates all day. Its just too boring to be done. Also could the people I've seen posting about Titans on losec gates stop. That happen twice for a week while PL were not getting paid to kill people. The second week I got a medal off my corp for being one of the dreads that killed it.

You have a choice in eve, in how you play. The gate gun things is a bad idea, not because I like gate camps. No, its a bad idea because it reduces the number of options for pilots in eve. Pilots that like being pirates, or going on kill everything roams in losec. Removing option that allow ships to die, is a bad idea. They're better ways to deal with camps, they however mostly involve other players breaking them up. I urge those complaining about them to try it, i promise its great fun.


^this.
Bad idea. Bad bad idea to nerf lowsec.
mjgvjbk
Wombo United
#642 - 2012-08-06 05:36:44 UTC
personally it might be better if ccp made all guns in low or high sec shoot flowers making only 0.0 pvp zone [nah just fuking with ya] WTF are ccp thinking eve isn't fuked up enough they got to go and break low sec once and for good Question

Did the devs partake in too much red cordial again FFS guys go and make something sparkle and leave low sec along, if anything make low sec more attractive for people the world needs pirates.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#643 - 2012-08-06 05:47:53 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Pip Mayo wrote:
It may be CCP expected players to police themselves, but they forget most gamers are a bloodthirsty lot and would rather blast and kill then sit around and protect the weak.

So, as per your own words, despite most gamers being interested in blowing each other up in a game where you fit guns to your ships for the purpose of blowing stuff up, you want CCP to implement a pvp flag so the minority of people like yourself can derive enjoyment from the game at the expense of everyone else? Your idea is so detrimental to the spirit of this game that I'm sure not even Greyscale would give it a second of consideration.

You said it yourself: you should turn to another game you'd find more enjoyable. As much as I want EVE to thrive with a large subscriber base, it simply doesn't need players like yourself. I apologize if this somehow offends you, as that's not my intent; I'm simply being blunt. You don't buy a Call of Duty game, and then complain on their forums that players are ruining the experience for you by shooting you, when all you want is to travel around the maps and take screenshots of the nice scenery, right? Because that's essentially what you did with your post.

Pip Mayo wrote:
The PvP kill-or-be-killed attitude sickens me.

That particular line really got to me. It sounds like you should stay as far away from competitive multiplayer games as you possibly can.


So he wonders why players aren't more cooperative, tells you about the experiences in low sec that left a bad taste in his mouth, and your reply is basically 'gtfo'? Nice. Way to help him along. Your reply was needlessly offensive and I apologize to Pip Mayo for you. Maybe you could read the section where he ventured into low sec and make helpful comments, instead?

Not that I agree with any of his suggestions.

I would also point out that not every 'fits guns to their ship for the purpose of blowing stuff up'. Like it or not, EVE's industrial side is awesome and attracts non-PVP types. For them, I'd hardly say this game is about blowing up ships. They could be making candy and shoes for all they care, they just like the industrial gameplay.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#644 - 2012-08-06 06:49:50 UTC
I never told him to "gtfo." I told him that his attitude is so contrary to the spirit of this game, that there's no way he's going to enjoy it. You might think that we should change the game to suit the lowest common denominator, but I don't.

Whether or not a person plays the game for its combat pvp or industrial aspects makes no difference as long as that person accepts the fact that non-consensual pvp will always be a part of EVE. That is the true issue that lies at the heart of all these recent game changes and threads.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Elinarien
Doomheim
#645 - 2012-08-06 07:12:19 UTC
mjgvjbk wrote:
personally it might be better if ccp made all guns in low or high sec shoot flowers making only 0.0 pvp zone [nah just fuking with ya] WTF are ccp thinking eve isn't fuked up enough they got to go and break low sec once and for good Question

Did the devs partake in too much red cordial again FFS guys go and make something sparkle and leave low sec along, if anything make low sec more attractive for people the world needs pirates.


I would have thought that increasing the traffic into low sec by removing gate camps was exactly what pvp'ers wanted - greater frequency and variety of targets hence more fights and opportunities to make a profit. How is this a bad thing?

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#646 - 2012-08-06 07:38:07 UTC
The funny thing is all the carebears shouting things along the lines of "HAHA SUCK IT WHINERS" will still never venture into lowsec. I don't blame them either, there's little benefit for carebears in lowsec, and the gatecamps (which are pretty damn rare unless you pass through one of the handful of 'popular' systems) aren't the barrier. The barrier is risk, period.

also lets not forget that these changes don't break up gatecamps, they empower them with fast tackle. They only break up decent sized, fun fights between gangs of PVPers.

So to summarize, anyone in favour of this change is wrong.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#647 - 2012-08-06 07:40:01 UTC
Pip Mayo wrote:
I am a hardcore PvE player and have no taste for PvP, especially as unbalanced as it gets in this game. It is as if CCP put no thought into supporting PvE-only players.
That's largely because EVE is a full-PvP game. You cannot do anything in it without competing with other players. Everything in the game relies on players blowing each other up in great numbers. If people stopped exploding, everything else in the game would immediately lose all its purpose. If you want a sense of what a PvE EVE would be like, go play exclusively on sisi for a month or two and see how exciting it is when nothing you do matter any more.

Quote:
To be limited to highsec space seems belittling and not worth my time. But even in highsec space, I have been harassed by PvPers.
That's because highsec is a PvP arena, just like the rest of the game.

Quote:
If I was to choose a change to the game to even things out and revive lowsec and provide a place for PvE players, it would be simply this: If you have a security rating above 0, you cannot attack (or maybe even target) other players with 0 or positive security ratings. Simple, eh?
Simple, but horrible. In order for the game to work, there must be no way (other than maybe to dock up, but even then there are risks…) to completely remove yourself from the possibility of being blown up. To put your idea into perspective, the kind of non-target status you're talking about would have to come with the following restrictions:

· You can obviously no longer lock any player ship.
· You can no longer activate any kind of AoE weaponry or module.
· You can no longer use the market, contracts or the trading window.
· You can no longer access or manage POSes and their services.
· You can no longer mine.
· You can no longer shoot rats.
· You can no longer open any kind of container in space.
· You can no longer use the on-board scanner or scan probes.
· You can no longer be in a fleet.
· You can no longer use salvagers.
· You can no longer access the industry interface.
· You can no longer access player-sovereign systems.
· You can no longer access free-floating permanent sites in space.

…anything less — and tbh, that list is probably not long enough — and it would be insanely abused and completely break the three corner-stones of the game: combat, industry, and the market.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#648 - 2012-08-06 08:03:46 UTC
Elinarien wrote:
mjgvjbk wrote:
personally it might be better if ccp made all guns in low or high sec shoot flowers making only 0.0 pvp zone [nah just fuking with ya] WTF are ccp thinking eve isn't fuked up enough they got to go and break low sec once and for good Question

Did the devs partake in too much red cordial again FFS guys go and make something sparkle and leave low sec along, if anything make low sec more attractive for people the world needs pirates.


I would have thought that increasing the traffic into low sec by removing gate camps was exactly what pvp'ers wanted - greater frequency and variety of targets hence more fights and opportunities to make a profit. How is this a bad thing?



Problem is that this change makes gate camping easyer and dislodging them harder.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#649 - 2012-08-06 08:09:21 UTC
Elinarien wrote:

I would have thought that increasing the traffic into low sec by removing gate camps was exactly what pvp'ers wanted - greater frequency and variety of targets hence more fights and opportunities to make a profit. How is this a bad thing?


Because low sec lacks the resources to entice those targets to come in to begin with. It's not like we have better roids, or vastly better missions, or juicy treasure on such a scale that there is a long line of players waiting to chase these if only it weren't so dangerous. Until low sec has its own special reason for people to live (besides Faction Warfare) the PvP is the main attraction out here. If you want to entice more people to live in low sec, you change the conditions to allow more casual and frequent PvP.

Low sec doesn't need to be any safer that it is, hands down. What it needs is more reasons to bait those lucrative ships into passing through and occupying our space to begin with.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#650 - 2012-08-06 08:19:00 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
The funny thing is all the carebears shouting things along the lines of "HAHA SUCK IT WHINERS" will still never venture into lowsec.

It is pretty funny huh.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dograzor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#651 - 2012-08-06 09:13:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Dograzor
Pip Mayo wrote:
* A PvEer Speaks


Sorry, I don't mean to troll you or disregard your play style... but sadly enough, PvE (as the way you describe it) in Eve is a myth. And well.. I liked your post, you really want to support the PvE content in this game, so let me give you some free advice.

In Eve Online - PvE is largely in place in order to support PvP - and thats the truth to it. Whatever you will do, mine minerals, manufacture modules, even grind missions for isk/salvage/lp, in the grand scheme of things this will be done so that I can buy a ship/modules/ammo & blow PvE'ers up in lowsec who sit in a belt.

Thats the truth of it. PvE is in no way a separate realm from PvP. They are very interconnected, and in some way they also depend on each other. You will have to start seeing this - in order to become truly efficient in making profits in Eve - You need to realize that you must have PvP in Eve for PvE to work - and vice versa.

You can use this for your advantage. Do not hate PvP. Embrace it. Use it for your advantage. Get a couple friends together, make a basic fleet composition - prepare a trap in some lowsec belt - gank the incoming pirate - and make sure beforehand that you have put the battlecruisers or modules that you built in the station where he sits in - so you get a kill - and he will buy the stuff you manufactured.

Do you start to see how this works? Eve is way bigger then just grinding PvE or defending the right to be an PvE'er... there is just much more profit to be made if you know what depends on what, and if you can start using the system for your advantage. And yes, you can do that as a new player. Alot of PvP'ers don't like spending alot of time in PvE (usually enough to get their monthly isk target secured), so if you dedicate yourself to PvE and know how to use the PVP aspect of this game to your advantage... there is no limit that you can do.

And if you think PvP is unfair... well.. Eve is meant to be unfair. Just read what I wrote and see if you can learn anything from this. And as a final thought - this is our motto as a pirate:

Quote:
"We don't gank, we just apply force in a disproportionate manner during an uneven tactical combat situation to maximize revenue and increase shareholder value"


Thats what I do, and I love doing. Now start developing the same mindset... and there is no limit to what you can do.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#652 - 2012-08-06 09:42:17 UTC
As far as I can tell there's not actually any "pve" in EVE. From mining veldspar to mission running, it's all pvp. The resources you gain and sell, the money you earn and use to buy stuff, the things you manufacture... they all affect other players.

Self proclaimed "PVErs" are just low-tier PVPers. Why should someone who willingly takes part in PVP be protected? Sod that.
Doddy
Excidium.
#653 - 2012-08-06 10:05:17 UTC
Dumb change is dumb tbh. It just means pirates will need to blob up more so they can kill targets even quicker (they already sit outside gun range between ganks anyway) before gun damage gets too high. So basically all the change will do is make camps bigger and let them use interceptors for even faster tackle. Meanwhile non pirates enemies who run into each other will be even less willing to take the first shot and go gcc than they are now as within a few minutes the agressing side is massively disadvantaged.

So less pvp in lo sec but what pvp there is will be even more no chance to escape instant helldeath than now.
Doddy
Excidium.
#654 - 2012-08-06 10:19:56 UTC
A far better idea (assuming a change is needed at all) would be to keep gun damage the same but have it apply to all targets regardless of how many there are instead of cycling between them (or worse, onto drones), i.e. there would be no tanking bonus from having greater numbers. That way every pirate needs to be able to tank the guns for the duration of a fight rather than just having the ehp to last 30 secs aggro. As logis would get overwhelmed by the spread damage it would make for interesting tactics in non camping situations as well.

If caps on gates are really perceived as a problem (surely they aren't, caps on gates = fight in the making) simply add a seige sentry gun to each gate which won't track sub caps but does big damage to caps.
Doddy
Excidium.
#655 - 2012-08-06 10:37:00 UTC
Pip Mayo wrote:
In my opinion lowsec has become a graveyard because of this.


No, lo sec is a graveyard because there is very little reward in return for the danger of being there. Back when lo sec mining was lucrative, lo sec lvl 4 missions could be farmed in carriers, static plexes abounded and null sec alliances didn't hog all the good moons, lo sec was a vibrant place. It was also considerably more dangerous (no tags on local for example) than it is now. The reward disparity has changed that. Back then 0.0 had less rewards than now and there was much less space to go round (very few outposts etc) while hi sec paid out considerbly less both in mining and missions.
Cpt Branko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#656 - 2012-08-06 11:07:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Branko
Doddy wrote:
Dumb change is dumb tbh. It just means pirates will need to blob up more so they can kill targets even quicker (they already sit outside gun range between ganks anyway) before gun damage gets too high. So basically all the change will do is make camps bigger and let them use interceptors for even faster tackle. Meanwhile non pirates enemies who run into each other will be even less willing to take the first shot and go gcc than they are now as within a few minutes the agressing side is massively disadvantaged.

So less pvp in lo sec but what pvp there is will be even more no chance to escape instant helldeath than now.


Don't you love the way CCP thinks out the consequences of the changes they make? Big smile

What low-sec could use is more things to actually do in space for good rewards with a serious ship.

I mean, there is some content (and it is reasonably lucrative), but... all CCP has been doing over the last years is adding ways to farm either AFK in station (PI) or in a gunless T1 frig and the profits of, say, farming FW with a gunless T1 frig, risking nothing, far eclipse just about anything you can do in a serious ship. That's just nonsense. I'm getting into FW using an alt just because I'd feel silly to miss the ludicrous fountain of riskless ISK that is.
Lexmana
#657 - 2012-08-06 11:10:46 UTC
Pip Mayo wrote:
We can then identify the potential threats.

In lowsec everyone that is not blue is a threat. And sometimes blue too. Like you, I learned that as a n00b when I was killed by a player with better security status than me. And now you have learned it too. Working as intended IMO.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#658 - 2012-08-06 11:27:42 UTC
I think this mantra that low sec is not more profitable than high sec is a bit of a myth. It is more profitable, its considered less profitable by most players because of the dangers pirates pose (Risk vs. Reward). Aka causing loses, which cut into profits making it more profitable to be in high sec.

But it is a fact that anything you do in low sec in its own right is more profitable. Missions, mining, PI, all the planetary exploration stuff... all of it produces more ISK than what you get doing the same thing in high sec. Even the economic stuff, its far easier to sell stuff at higher prices to pirates. Anyone ever try smuggling ammo into a highly populated pirate area? Sells like hot cakes.

The problem from a developer perspective is how do you control "risk vs. reward" when you cannot control the "risk" part of the equation that is dynamically created by players. I know low sec systems where you can mine and run missions with complete safety because there are no pirates there, while others are so lethal you can't even get in there in a bloody shuttle.

The conversation in which we increase reward to suppliment the dynamically created risk that pirates infuse into low sec will have zero effect on people who are currently unwilling to enter. Even if missions paid twice as much and the asteroids available produced 10 times as much ISK per hour, as long as the risk of getting blown up is there, anyone wishing to avoid PvP will still not go there. The only people who stand to benefit from higher paying missions and more rewards in low sec are the people who are willing to PvP and live in low sec or already travel their for the better rewards. Hence carebears really stand to gain nothing from improved rewards in low sec. Only the people who are already going there like me, which again I point out, I do because the rewards are significantly better. But if you don't know how to avoid getting killed in low sec now, better rewards arent going to change that.

And even if it did hypothetically speaking, it will just generate more priacy and result in it becoming even more dangerous and ultimatly lead back to what we have now. People who don't want to PvP, don't go there.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#659 - 2012-08-06 11:33:22 UTC
ANGRY23 wrote:

What triage carriers? PPL dont gatecamp in triage archons, never have, never will and this just proves that in using the triage carrier in his example that mr greyfail has no clue about the game mechanics he is hell bent on breaking.


Did I mention gatecamps?
No, they break gatecamps in triage carriers while bridging in a blob at the same time.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Xavier Dragon
Section 8.
#660 - 2012-08-06 11:37:27 UTC
Cpt Branko wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Dumb change is dumb tbh. It just means pirates will need to blob up more so they can kill targets even quicker (they already sit outside gun range between ganks anyway) before gun damage gets too high. So basically all the change will do is make camps bigger and let them use interceptors for even faster tackle. Meanwhile non pirates enemies who run into each other will be even less willing to take the first shot and go gcc than they are now as within a few minutes the agressing side is massively disadvantaged.

So less pvp in lo sec but what pvp there is will be even more no chance to escape instant helldeath than now.


Don't you love the way CCP thinks out the consequences of the changes they make? Big smile

What low-sec could use is more things to actually do in space for good rewards with a serious ship.

I mean, there is some content (and it is reasonably lucrative), but... all CCP has been doing over the last years is adding ways to farm either AFK in station (PI) or in a gunless T1 frig and the profits of, say, farming FW with a gunless T1 frig, risking nothing, far eclipse just about anything you can do in a serious ship. That's just nonsense. I'm getting into FW using an alt just because I'd feel silly to miss the ludicrous fountain of riskless ISK that is.


Agreed.

Making FW better =/= making it more lucrative.
Lowsec needs ISK oppertunitys that anyone can take part in, not just people in FW.