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Reasons to lol at new barge changes
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#41 - 2012-08-01 23:08:48 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Nobody but you whiny ganker wannabes give a **** about gank profitability.
Gankers do. Profitability is the thing that keeps you alive in highsec, because it's the defining factor for that part of space.

Highsec is simply a place where aggression costs. The “security” in highsec comes one thing and one thing alone: the assumption that people are to miserly to pay that price and that they will therefore refrain from blowing each other up. Profitability (or rather the lack thereof) is what allows you to undock without immediately finding yourself in your clone bay.

Profitability is what keeps you safe and it's what gives your tank value. If you removed that part, no amount of tank would ever keep you safe. 100k EHP doesn't keep you safe because it's a lot of EHP (it isn't) — it keeps you safe because it costs too much to chew through in the time allotted.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2012-08-01 23:10:37 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Total Damage Taken: 6,550

FYI, this is a current tanked Hulk on TQ (without tanking implants or siege/armor booster or overheating):

EFT stats (current): 32,576 EHP (22779 shield / 2265 armor / 7533 structure), 121 DPS shield tank [passive recharge]

[Hulk, EHP]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Internal Force Field Array I

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5
Mining Drone II x5


that's a horrible fit, please google "stacking nerf"

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2012-08-01 23:17:37 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
that's a horrible fit, please google "stacking nerf"
It's an excellent fit if you actually want to super-tank your Hulk. Stacking penalties don't change that because you will always run into them if you focus on one thing.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2012-08-01 23:19:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
that's a horrible fit, please google "stacking nerf"
It's an excellent fit if you actually want to super-tank your Hulk. Stacking penalties don't change that because you will always run into them if you focus on one thing.


focusing on tanking blasters (you know, the guns catalysts use) nets you far better results than "hmm let me just put all the invulns i have on this"

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#45 - 2012-08-01 23:25:03 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
focusing on tanking blasters (you know, the guns catalysts use)
…and they'll come with EMP Thrashers instead.
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-08-01 23:29:48 UTC
Here's how I see the situation:

This is EVE...

People lose ships...

The End !!!


CoolCoolCool
Pipa Porto
#47 - 2012-08-01 23:47:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Kitty Carr wrote:
My attackers were partially concorded, my hulk had a tank, but they had several destroyers.


1. They all got CONCORDed if they got a shot off.

2. You did not have a tank worth mentioning. LOLShieldbooster.

With a TQ Hulk, You can be unprofitable to gank in a .5 if you use all your slots to tank. You can be unprofitable to gank in a 1.0 if you use all your mids/rigs to tank. In between, you may need to use one low to be unprofitable to gank.


Nobody but you whiny ganker wannabes give a **** about gank profitability. Take your bullshit back to the threadnought you can't seem to get enough of. I think somebody there might have posted something worth you crying over in the time it took you to make this post.


Suqq, if someone wants to throw their money away to hurt you, then yes, you're tank doesn't matter. But then, why should it? They're throwing money away to hurt you. We're just haggling about cost.

However, if most ganks are done for profit (and as far as I've seen, the HAG KB says it is), then tank does matter, and the appropriate balance in a game that explicitly allows PvP to be profitable is something where the victim has the choice between making himself a viable gank target or going for max yield.

With 2 MLU IIs, a Hulk can get 20k EHP vs Blasters and 17k vs EMP. You can't gank that profitably in higher sec bands, and most hulk ganks I've seen just don't bother tanking at all regardless of sec bands, ensuring a profitable gank no matter where in HS you are.

Ganking is like ladies night at a bar. The miners call all the shots. It's up to the gankers to find the right miner to get lucky with. Seems from the KBs that the miners are a pretty welcoming bunch.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2012-08-02 08:43:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Tippia wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
focusing on tanking blasters (you know, the guns catalysts use)
…and they'll come with EMP Thrashers instead.


emp thrashers will murder you anyway with lol 3 invulns

especially since you're doing nothing to look at the hulk's gigantic EM hole

at least if you supertank against catalysts you'll make them do a little more effort (and just refit for EMP thrashers off of the orca next to you)

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#49 - 2012-08-02 08:51:50 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
emp thrashers will murder you anyway with lol 3 invulns
Not really, no. You don't want to waste a slot on filling that EM hole because doing so makes you much weaker against anything else (in fact, it makes you as weak to blasters as you previously were to projectiles).

3× Invulns simply gives you the best overall tank for all eventualities, and that's pretty much what you have to plan for.
Nirnias Stirrum
UberWTFBBQ and Battle Technologies
#50 - 2012-08-02 09:00:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Nirnias Stirrum
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Total Damage Taken: 6,550

FYI, this is a current tanked Hulk on TQ (without tanking implants or siege/armor booster or overheating):

EFT stats (current): 32,576 EHP (22779 shield / 2265 armor / 7533 structure), 121 DPS shield tank [passive recharge]

[Hulk, EHP]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Internal Force Field Array I

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5
Mining Drone II x5



What a **** fit. You do know most of the hulks tank is in its structure. Fit a damage control fool.
Pipa Porto
#51 - 2012-08-02 09:03:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
emp thrashers will murder you anyway with lol 3 invulns
Not really, no. You don't want to waste a slot on filling that EM hole because doing so makes you much weaker against anything else (in fact, it makes you as weak to blasters as you previously were to projectiles).

3× Invulns simply gives you the best overall tank for all eventualities, and that's pretty much what you have to plan for.


Also, EMP Thrashers give 388 DPS for a meta fit (3.8m) vs a Catalyst's 517 DPS (3.11m).

So the slight resist hole left by 3 Invulns is more than covered by the ~33% increased cost to gank.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#52 - 2012-08-02 09:04:45 UTC
Nirnias Stirrum wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Internal Force Field Array I



What a **** fit. You do know most of the hulks tank is in its structure. Fit a damage control fool.


Just to help you out.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Syphon Lodian
Fabled Enterprises
#53 - 2012-08-02 09:12:12 UTC
People still going on about "tanking a hulk".

How do you "tank" a hulk exactly, and what is the point? The point of a Hulk is to mine as much rock as is possible given the upgrades and boosts. People field hulks for the sole purpose of mining rock. It's a factored risk that you are going to lose it if you're going for yield.

It gets a bit stupid really. Apparently MLU's are something that shouldn't be in the game then? Should I trash my mining augments and go for "tank" 100% when my goal is to mine?

Oh man, I should have fitted 100% officer tank on my MINING barge to protect against that 7th destroyer. Wow what was I thinking, I'm so stupid?

You know, for as much as you people **** and moan about miners "having no life and sucking at EVE" etc, you actually post in the forums about mining more than anyone actually ******* mines. You spend more time posting about mining than the amount of time I've actually spent mining in the past month.

Really, it's kinda gross at this point, and you should feel bad.
Nirnias Stirrum
UberWTFBBQ and Battle Technologies
#54 - 2012-08-02 09:15:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nirnias Stirrum
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nirnias Stirrum wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Internal Force Field Array I



What a **** fit. You do know most of the hulks tank is in its structure. Fit a damage control fool.


Just to help you out.



Yeh.... well.... well reading is over rated anyways, only nerds read, i prefer to rely on the stupidity of the average eve player, which iv demonstrated admirably in my previous post!.............. :P
Pipa Porto
#55 - 2012-08-02 09:16:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Syphon Lodian wrote:
People still going on about "tanking a hulk".

How do you "tank" a hulk exactly, and what is the point? The point of a Hulk is to mine as much rock as is possible given the upgrades and boosts. People field hulks for the sole purpose of mining rock. It's a factored risk that you are going to lose it if you're going for yield.

It gets a bit stupid really. Apparently MLU's are something that shouldn't be in the game then? Should I trash my mining augments and go for "tank" 100% when my goal is to mine?

Oh man, I should have fitted 100% officer tank on my MINING barge to protect against that 7th destroyer. Wow what was I thinking, I'm so stupid?

You know, for as much as you people **** and moan about miners "having no life and sucking at EVE" etc, you actually post in the forums about mining more than anyone actually ******* mines. You spend more time posting about mining than the amount of time I've actually spent mining in the past month.

Really, it's kinda gross at this point, and you should feel bad.


The Purpose of a Hulk is to return as much rock to the station/POS as possible. If you die, you return 0m3 to station and have to buy a new hulk to continue mining.

If you keep dying when you try to do it, you might need to re-evaluate your fitting choices.

Nobody's suggesting any officer mods, they're all T2 or Meta.

If you feel that you're able to avoid being ganked while fitting MLUs, by all means fit them. Just don't complain if you get ganked because you didn't bother tanking your 300m investment.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#56 - 2012-08-02 09:19:27 UTC
Syphon Lodian wrote:
How do you "tank" a hulk exactly, and what is the point?
You tank a hulk by fitting it with tankng mods.

The point is twofold. Primarily, it's to show that the common claim that you cannot tank a hulk is complete nonsense. Beyond that, the point is to make you a less desirable target than the guy two rocks over so the gankers will go after him instead and to simply be excluded from a large portion of ganks (the ones done for profit), because you've just made yourself to costly to kill.
Syphon Lodian
Fabled Enterprises
#57 - 2012-08-02 09:40:57 UTC
Where do you get this idea that ganking hulks is done for profit? Also, do you expect people to believe you?

I don't think I've ever seen anyone do it for profit. People do it for fun, or because of Hulkageddon. To get a successful gank they go in numbers, and this is always what I see. Making the point about tanking a mining barge moot. The risk of being ganked for profit is pitifully low, as the pirates will fly in gangs and with that number can generally do something else far more profitable.

The last time I had any Hulks popped in hi-sec was by a Nado. This is when they first dropped on the market, he flew in, alpha'd a couple of my Hulks and that was that. His loss was about 10 times more than what my gang's wrecks dropped. They didn't even salvage.

Everything else was by gangs looking for a 100% success rate on popping the hulk. It really didn't matter what "tank" you were running.

With the new changes you can either fly a Mack for it's 'tank', or you can continue flying a Hulk for it's yield. People that fly Hulks choose to do so and take the small risk because they want the yield. Really, the only time you see any "whining" worth mentioning is during Hulkageddon, and really, what do you expect? People pissed off from an event that targets them, that they weren't even aware of .. ? Please, tell me more.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#58 - 2012-08-02 09:43:24 UTC
If, on average, you can mind enough in between being ganked, to pay for your hulk, you're ahead.

If you're ganked before that point, you've lost.

So you have to balance between tank and yield, to extend that time long enough.

Sure, you can't make yourself ungankable. But you're not going to find anyone (reasonable) who'll agree you should be able to.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Keno Skir
#59 - 2012-08-02 11:21:39 UTC
Christ sake man the hulk isn't meant to be strong, it's meant to mine a lot of rock. Like complaining about a lack or spoiler on a tractor Roll.

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#60 - 2012-08-02 12:29:49 UTC
Kitty Carr wrote:
So i'm in high sec, pre inferno 1.2 of course, and my hulk in ganked. Which gets me to thinking about how would the up coming changes have saved me? My attackers were partially concorded, my hulk had a tank, but they had several destroyers. They lost t1 destroyers and probley got a payday of a few mill and some pricey loot for it. I lost a 300mill in ship/parts and got a under 80mill in insurance. In short they made out at my expense on a highsec gank.

The new barges would at best (skiff) field a 50k ehp. Ok that sounds wonderful in theory until people drop in with half a dozen destroyers and support frigs on top of that. With only a few million invested in those ships and several million to gain. But thats the BEST of the new barges the hulk is barely getting any buffs. Think this is a rare scenario? Think again, there are plenty of multi-client gankers who bring their alts to the battle.

To top it off I get this little scam mail in my mail box afterwards...

Quote:

Greetings!

It appears that you were the unfortunate victim of a Hulkageddon gank. As you may have heard, Hulkageddon V has been ongoing since April 30th, and it is well-known that thousands of Hulks and Mackinaws are destroyed during these campaigns. Exhumers are notoriously weak and the poor state of T2 hull insurance makes these ships extremely costly to lose for the victims, while extremely cheap to kill for the gankers. Additionally, an edict by The Mittani has extended Hulkageddon V indefinitely - gankers are still being paid rewards 5 months after the announcement of Hulkageddon V by Helicity Boson.

This is where I come in. I am the Goonswarm Federation director in charge of managing the Hulkageddon campaign, and I deal with selling Mining Permits. The purchase of a Permit ensures that Hulkageddon participants do not target you - should they do so, any winnings they may claim are immediately void, and your loss will be FULLY reimbursed at current Jita prices!

To purchase a Mining Permit, send this character 250 million ISK with the reason "PERMIT" and you will shortly be listed under our exemptions list (characters that Hulkageddon participants must set blue for the duration of the campaign) and any exhumer losses you incur to suicide ganks throughout the remainder of the Hulkageddon campaign will be reimbursed, provided the following conditions:

- Any losses within 4 hours of payment will NOT be reimbursed. Wait 4 hours after payment before resuming your mining! The reason for this is that gankers have some leeway to keep their contacts up to date with our spreadsheet, and cannot be expected to continuously check it.
- The loss must be in HIGH SECURITY space (0.5 security or better!) No party on your killmail may have an active war declaration against your corporation/alliance or be a member of your (non-NPC) corporation.
- Any indication of MACRO USAGE will void your request. Goonswarm Federation does not intend on supporting botters.
- Fraud will not be tolerated. Anyone suicide ganking their own exhumers to collect payouts through this plan will be denied payment.
- Only characters that send 250,000,000 ISK to "Andski" will be listed on the no-kill list! Alts are not covered, unless you send this character that same amount of ISK from those alts!

For reference, your character name will be listed on this exemption list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag0_cKv2BUAhdHI2NHU5YVY2eERqVU9GZnhVLUJRVVE

Happy mining!




Sure there some solo gankers out there crying at CCP's new barge updates, but for the rest of the universe, there all laughing another attempt of CCP to show its manhood to the world and prove the Goons don't have free rein in high sec. Only to be weighed, measured and found wanting.

In the end only a major overhaul to how CCP handles high sec piracy will change anything. If you doubt this, stand on a gate at a trade hub and watch the same people who gank you pop past in fast frigs or pods. Or in a 0.6-0.5 and see the numerous yellow/red tags.

But if you think CCP's going for a serious fix anytime before now and the next 10 years. Remember it took CCP days to nerf an anti-goon alliance, and years to give barges a better tank. Notice a difference in priorities?

Maybe the real solution are more patches that screw up bot miners for a while. That seems to make CCP take note that miners need some attention too, and that their devs are starting to get stains on their ears the same color as the goon bat phone.



Your first mistake was thinking there is something to 'fix'. This isn't wow or hello kitty online, your ship and stuff are valid targets for killing, stealing, etc anywhere, any time. Deal with it.