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Developer Comments on Mining Crystals and Cargo Capacity?

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Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#81 - 2012-07-31 19:28:05 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
In the Hulk you really do not need to store that many crystals. A couple of spares for the ore you are mining, and 4 or 5 for the next ore you are going to mine. Once you move to the new ore you need to off load the old crystals and get a few new ones for the next ore type. If you are in a fleet with orca or hauler support you can get the new crystals from those haulers or orca. You do that in the middle of a mining cycle so you got plenty of time. If you use a jet can, the orca or hauler pickes up the old ones from the can and drops the new ones in. With an orca, you can use the corp hangar. If you are solo, you will be docking alot, and that gives you a chance to get crystals.

Having a bigger cargo is thus just a convenience, not a show stopper. That said, I would like convenience of a 500 cu m hold on the Hulk too, but can live with a 350 cu m hold and 25 cu m crystals ( room for 13 ).

BTW, everyone knows that you can drag a crystal straight from an orca corp hangar to the miner, with no need to first put it in your hold?



That is fine and dandy for high sec mining, with those who like to bunch up there hulks, but when you are mining with no rorq/orca in the belt/grav, there is no easy way to change out crystals without having to shut down your mining and go get more. No one is going to want to be a dedicated crystal boy.

Just reduce the size of these things and be done with it.

Senex Legio
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#82 - 2012-07-31 19:28:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Andoria Thara wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

My point is: today we have choices even within the Hulks route. Choices are good.

What you and the other blobbers want is some crap canned WoW-esque 1 way to play and the rest is verboten.
Sorry I am for freedom of choices, I prefer having no single change than a buff that corrals gameplay in 1 canned direction.


It's hard to take you serious when we're talking about MINING, and having choices. The only choice I see with mining is which type of rock do you feel like shooting today.


Then drop the blinders, mining - like most in EvE - is what you make of it.

Here's a small list of mining kinds I have joined or organized:

- Multi-Orca low sec.
- Rorqual + Orcas in sov null sec.
- Ninja mining in NPC null sec.
- Basic ore and ice small and large fleet with and without Orca support in hi sec. Some times with mercs defending the bunch, some times with corpies bringing in RR battleships and / or logistics. Most of the time the Orcas are far away to avoid smart bombing.
- Small and medium Orca fleets in large hi sec grav sites.
- Small loner or Orca fleets in deadspace / missions.

All of them today are viable from 1 to N people in fleet, all of them may be tweaked and optimized in their particular parameters.

Those like me did not need Hulks to "improve" or "be boosted", we mostly mine during Hulkageddons and defend my / ourselves. Only annoying thing was the lack of options (yes I really love options) about fine tuning yield vs tank but it was not a killer.

But it's fine, others felt like they needed an hand and CCP are reviewing ships. It's OK, as long as their buff does not mean my and ours end of ability to play in our fleets.
Why should we suffer because others can't tank their fleet and want buffs giving up on flexibility and scalability from 1-3 to N ships?

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Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#83 - 2012-07-31 19:32:01 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Those like me did not need Hulks to "improve" or "be boosted", we mostly mine during Hulkageddons and defend my / ourselves. Only annoying thing was the lack of options (yes I really love options) about fine tuning yield vs tank but it was not a killer.


So the real problem is that they are giving you more options, but you don't want to use any of those other options, you want to keep doing the same thing you have been doing without CCP mucking it up.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#84 - 2012-07-31 19:38:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Andoria Thara wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Those like me did not need Hulks to "improve" or "be boosted", we mostly mine during Hulkageddons and defend my / ourselves. Only annoying thing was the lack of options (yes I really love options) about fine tuning yield vs tank but it was not a killer.


So the real problem is that they are giving you more options, but you don't want to use any of those other options, you want to keep doing the same thing you have been doing without CCP mucking it up.


I don't see how having somebody decide how much cargo hold or how much crystals hold (and this is fixed for all the ships) you can have may be defined as "more options". Cargo hold is not so important but crystals freedom is.
I don't see what absolute game breaking disaster happens if you are able to carry the crystals you could today.

It's expecially nonsensical giving "easy mode, no workflow drawbacks" ships full freedom of what to carry while Hulks - the ships meant to be efficient - have workflow drawbacks. It should be cost drawbacks or anything that does not go against workflow else Hulk lose a lot of competitivity.

As I said in another thread, make Hulks an exercise of meanigless menial tasks and all you get is people install more bots to deal with it.

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#85 - 2012-07-31 19:41:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Jake Rivers wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
In the Hulk you really do not need to store that many crystals. A couple of spares for the ore you are mining, and 4 or 5 for the next ore you are going to mine. Once you move to the new ore you need to off load the old crystals and get a few new ones for the next ore type. If you are in a fleet with orca or hauler support you can get the new crystals from those haulers or orca. You do that in the middle of a mining cycle so you got plenty of time. If you use a jet can, the orca or hauler pickes up the old ones from the can and drops the new ones in. With an orca, you can use the corp hangar. If you are solo, you will be docking alot, and that gives you a chance to get crystals.

Having a bigger cargo is thus just a convenience, not a show stopper. That said, I would like convenience of a 500 cu m hold on the Hulk too, but can live with a 350 cu m hold and 25 cu m crystals ( room for 13 ).

BTW, everyone knows that you can drag a crystal straight from an orca corp hangar to the miner, with no need to first put it in your hold?



That is fine and dandy for high sec mining, with those who like to bunch up there hulks, but when you are mining with no rorq/orca in the belt/grav, there is no easy way to change out crystals without having to shut down your mining and go get more. No one is going to want to be a dedicated crystal boy.

Just reduce the size of these things and be done with it.

If there is no hauler, then the hulk will be warping back and forth to drop off ore. You can get the next set of crystals on one of those trips. The cargo is plenty big enough to hold the crystals for the 6 minutes of mining it takes to fill the ore hold.

If you have the orca visit the belt once every hour or so to pick up jet cans, it can drop off an hours worth of crystals in the jet can on each trip. The will be, what, 8 crystals at most? Those will all fit in the hulk cargo.

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Infinite Force
#86 - 2012-07-31 19:47:40 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Andoria Thara wrote:
Seems like most people are fine with the changes, other than Vaerah


Maybe because I am the only voice talking for those who won't field 20+ ships but for the majority who field 5-8?

This.

My personal Squads have 6 - 9.

I am fine with the direction BUT the balance is not done yet.

Balance includes, but is not limited to:
- Tank
- Storage
- Yield
- Support (Orca / Rorqual Ore & Cargoholds)
- Crystal Size
- CPU/PG

Balance does not mean shifting the focus from one ship to another. It means that all 6 mining ships fill a specific role. Will there be overlap? Sure, but the more overlap there is, the more you end up shifting focus towards a given ship.

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Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#87 - 2012-07-31 19:48:55 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

I don't see how having somebody decide how much cargo hold or how much crystals hold (and this is fixed for all the ships) you can have may be defined as "more options". Cargo hold is not so important but crystals freedom is.
I don't see what absolute game breaking disaster happens if you are able to carry the crystals you could today.


Of course there are more options, you now have 3 ships to choose from, 6 if you want to include T1s. Currently on TQ all other barges/exhumers are worthless.

Look at the battlecruisers for example, you have a tanky BC, a BC with BS sized weapons, and a mediocre BC that falls somewhere in the middle.

If you can't deal with the changes to the Hulk (like most will adapt to), then switch to the Mackinaw and use 3x MLU IIs. After all, it's all about options, and having more choices, right?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#88 - 2012-07-31 19:51:27 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
That is fine and dandy for high sec mining, with those who like to bunch up there hulks, but when you are mining with no rorq/orca in the belt/grav, there is no easy way to change out crystals without having to shut down your mining and go get more. No one is going to want to be a dedicated crystal boy.
Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.

In fact, if you can't get Rorq/Orca support, then maybe the Hulk is the wrong tool to begin with. This, too, is as it should be.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#89 - 2012-07-31 19:55:51 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:

If you can't deal with the changes to the Hulk (like most will adapt to), then switch to the Mackinaw and use 3x MLU IIs. After all, it's all about options, and having more choices, right?


I have the fleet. I can have (depending on who I find online) up to 13 exhumers easy plus 2 Orcas.
I have the defense.

These are the stated "requirements".


I don't see any "hauler" or "jet can" requirement in CCP's written text, expecially since jet can is not even a CCP created mechanic but only a players invented crutch.


CCP are going to switch Battlecruisers V to multiple racial battlecruiser skills. They said "what you fly today you'll fly tomorrow".


So here I am, what I fly today is what I fly tomorrow. Including pocket missions, NPC nullsec ninja ops, and anti-smart bomb Orca fleets.

No added indy accounts or similar. Adding accounts only lowers the Hulk efficiency per account down to "lesser" ships, making it pointless.

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Dave stark
#90 - 2012-07-31 19:56:06 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:

If there is no hauler, then the hulk will be warping back and forth to drop off ore. You can get the next set of crystals on one of those trips. The cargo is plenty big enough to hold the crystals for the 6 minutes of mining it takes to fill the ore hold.

If you have the orca visit the belt once every hour or so to pick up jet cans, it can drop off an hours worth of crystals in the jet can on each trip. The will be, what, 8 crystals at most? Those will all fit in the hulk cargo.



no he won't, he'll be jetcan mining.
an unbonused solo miner will take 2 hours, or more to mine enough to fill an orca.
the time crystals last isn't the issue, it's the amount of ore types that are the issue. if one crystal mined every ore then you *might* have a point.
Dave stark
#91 - 2012-07-31 19:58:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
That is fine and dandy for high sec mining, with those who like to bunch up there hulks, but when you are mining with no rorq/orca in the belt/grav, there is no easy way to change out crystals without having to shut down your mining and go get more. No one is going to want to be a dedicated crystal boy.
Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.

In fact, if you can't get Rorq/Orca support, then maybe the Hulk is the wrong tool to begin with. This, too, is as it should be.


but if you have to have some one constantly shuttling crystals back and forth that's one less mining ship, hence you'd be better off with every one in mackinaws which kinda defeats the point?
Kristen Andelare
Night's Shadows
#92 - 2012-07-31 19:58:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
That is fine and dandy for high sec mining, with those who like to bunch up there hulks, but when you are mining with no rorq/orca in the belt/grav, there is no easy way to change out crystals without having to shut down your mining and go get more. No one is going to want to be a dedicated crystal boy.
Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.

In fact, if you can't get Rorq/Orca support, then maybe the Hulk is the wrong tool to begin with. This, too, is as it should be.



Thank you Tippia, again, the voice of reason.

Additionally, if he's mining with no Orca/Rorqual support in the wilds of nullsec or lowsec, does he have at least a hauler? Crystals brought by a hauler are like mana from heaven. If he isn't then he's docking somewhere, where he could grab more.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#93 - 2012-07-31 19:58:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.


Why should a fleet want to accept a lower rate of production AND bring defenders for the Hulks AND accept more frequent ore shifts? Makes no sense. Lower rate of production is the drawback for Macks and Skiffs, if you impose a lower rate of production on an Hulk fleet then something is seriously wrong.

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Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#94 - 2012-07-31 19:58:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
That is fine and dandy for high sec mining, with those who like to bunch up there hulks, but when you are mining with no rorq/orca in the belt/grav, there is no easy way to change out crystals without having to shut down your mining and go get more. No one is going to want to be a dedicated crystal boy.
Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.

In fact, if you can't get Rorq/Orca support, then maybe the Hulk is the wrong tool to begin with. This, too, is as it should be.


I only mine with the rorq boosting, it does so safe and sound inside a POS, it is not going to be running crystals back and forth to the mining site. I don't really give a damn how you mine, when I mine, I want the full selection of crystals I currently enjoy. There simply is no sound reason to limit the choices of crystals you can bring. Maybe you are happy just mining veldspar or kernite all day long, when I mine I go after a more broader range of targets.

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Kristen Andelare
Night's Shadows
#95 - 2012-07-31 20:01:42 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
That is fine and dandy for high sec mining, with those who like to bunch up there hulks, but when you are mining with no rorq/orca in the belt/grav, there is no easy way to change out crystals without having to shut down your mining and go get more. No one is going to want to be a dedicated crystal boy.
Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.

In fact, if you can't get Rorq/Orca support, then maybe the Hulk is the wrong tool to begin with. This, too, is as it should be.


but if you have to have some one constantly shuttling crystals back and forth that's one less mining ship, hence you'd be better off with every one in mackinaws which kinda defeats the point?


Quit abusing your mining crystals, they shouldn't be handled so roughly (i.e. don't slam them on your map chart table so hard). Else, 'constantly' shuttling crystals back and fort' is either gross exaggeration or really, really poor planning. T2 crystals last at LEAST a couple hours. Stop making excuses for poor planning and get out there and mine, Eve needs you.
Dave stark
#96 - 2012-07-31 20:03:40 UTC
Kristen Andelare wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
That is fine and dandy for high sec mining, with those who like to bunch up there hulks, but when you are mining with no rorq/orca in the belt/grav, there is no easy way to change out crystals without having to shut down your mining and go get more. No one is going to want to be a dedicated crystal boy.
Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.

In fact, if you can't get Rorq/Orca support, then maybe the Hulk is the wrong tool to begin with. This, too, is as it should be.


but if you have to have some one constantly shuttling crystals back and forth that's one less mining ship, hence you'd be better off with every one in mackinaws which kinda defeats the point?


Quit abusing your mining crystals, they shouldn't be handled so roughly (i.e. don't slam them on your map chart table so hard). Else, 'constantly' shuttling crystals back and fort' is either gross exaggeration or really, really poor planning. T2 crystals last at LEAST a couple hours. Stop making excuses for poor planning and get out there and mine, Eve needs you.


yep, it might last a few hours but that arkonor crystal ain't gonna mine bistot.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#97 - 2012-07-31 20:08:09 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Kristen Andelare wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
That is fine and dandy for high sec mining, with those who like to bunch up there hulks, but when you are mining with no rorq/orca in the belt/grav, there is no easy way to change out crystals without having to shut down your mining and go get more. No one is going to want to be a dedicated crystal boy.
Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.

In fact, if you can't get Rorq/Orca support, then maybe the Hulk is the wrong tool to begin with. This, too, is as it should be.


but if you have to have some one constantly shuttling crystals back and forth that's one less mining ship, hence you'd be better off with every one in mackinaws which kinda defeats the point?


Quit abusing your mining crystals, they shouldn't be handled so roughly (i.e. don't slam them on your map chart table so hard). Else, 'constantly' shuttling crystals back and fort' is either gross exaggeration or really, really poor planning. T2 crystals last at LEAST a couple hours. Stop making excuses for poor planning and get out there and mine, Eve needs you.


yep, it might last a few hours but that arkonor crystal ain't gonna mine bistot.


Stop talking in a logical way, we are ITT where people can't see how mining should have choices and how mining would ever involve anything more than mining veldspar and scordite in hi sec!

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#98 - 2012-07-31 20:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Dave stark wrote:
if one crystal mined every ore then you *might* have a point.
…and if ever single miner had to mine every single ore in the belt in one go, it would be a problem. Luckily, that's not necessary. At some point the ore has to be picked and and delivered to a storage spot. That delivery can very easily be combined with a return-delivery of crystal to fit the needs of the next session.

If you're solo, decide what you're going after next and pick up the appropriate selection of crystals from the sixty-five thousand different combinations a Hulk will be able to carry (more if they adjust the sizes). If you're in a fleet, just X up what you need for the next sweep as the hauler goes off to dump stuff.

Quote:
but if you have to have some one constantly shuttling crystals back and forth that's one less mining ship, hence you'd be better off with every one in mackinaws which kinda defeats the point?
Will the value of running T2 strips with crystals and the Hulk's additional yield, multiplied by the total number of mining ships in the fleet, plus the bonus of not having any downtime in the op, outstrip the yield from having one more miner, but forcing everyone to run a crystal-less setup and do have constant downtime to have their own hauling? If your fleet is disorganised enough for the latter to be true, then yes, multi-soloing in Macks will be the better choice for you. This is as it should be: your lack of discipline and organisation forces you to run a suboptimal setup.

Jake Rivers wrote:
when I mine, I want the full selection of crystals I currently enjoy. There simply is no sound reason to limit the choices of crystals you can bring.
I just told you the reason: to reward those fleets that can get the discipline of logistics down. To reward those (fleets and individuals) who can plan out their mining and just not haphazardly go for what's closest. To reward thinking.

I don't care how you want to mine. I do care about (and enjoy) the idea that thoughtlessness and poor decision-making gets punished.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#99 - 2012-07-31 20:11:25 UTC
Kristen Andelare wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
That is fine and dandy for high sec mining, with those who like to bunch up there hulks, but when you are mining with no rorq/orca in the belt/grav, there is no easy way to change out crystals without having to shut down your mining and go get more. No one is going to want to be a dedicated crystal boy.
Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.

In fact, if you can't get Rorq/Orca support, then maybe the Hulk is the wrong tool to begin with. This, too, is as it should be.



Thank you Tippia, again, the voice of reason.

Additionally, if he's mining with no Orca/Rorqual support in the wilds of nullsec or lowsec, does he have at least a hauler? Crystals brought by a hauler are like mana from heaven. If he isn't then he's docking somewhere, where he could grab more.



Hauling involves tractor beams, and not very frequently, the timing of rocks depleting or crystals going usually do not coincide with this task. Tractor beams are not very effective at pushing stuff around either.

In any case, why is your method of mining the way everyone else in the game should play by?

Senex Legio
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#100 - 2012-07-31 20:14:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:

I don't care how you want to mine. I do care about (and enjoy) the idea that thoughtlessness and poor decision-making gets punished.


Poor decision making is not punished by WoW-canning a mechanism to forbid it.
EvE is the game of choices and they have consequences. Removing choices (good and terrible alike) is strongly anti-EvE.

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