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Developer Comments on Mining Crystals and Cargo Capacity?

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#61 - 2012-07-31 18:13:53 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
IE today it's a viable choice to keep Orcas away from miners, it counters the typical "hey let's go smartbomb the bunch" effect.
Unless Orcas will be added the ability to "throw" (reverse tractor) crystals to Hulks, this tactic is over.


Or a guy in a frigate could shuttle over a crystal set.

Again: the problem here is a lack of imagination.

For that matter, just how many sets of cyrstals are you going to burn through in that deadspace pocket, that you can't load up before the op and not need to resupply?


Who is going to fly the frigate:

- The guy in the Orca, removing buffs from everybody.

- The guys in the Hulks, factually making 1 of them far less efficient than a Mack and (for deadspace pockets) having to run again 80 km inside?


Stop assuming everybody can always fly 20 men fleets with all the bells and whistles. It only empowers blobbers again and again, in a game already suffering from over-blobbing.

Fleet = 2 people upwards.
I can understand Hulks catering from Orca "worthy" fleets only and upwards but then it has to work with setups involving Orca + 3 Hulks upwards not just when you have abundant "no doers" paying a subscription just to sit idle somewhere waiting to deliver crystals.

Also, part of the efficiency is also in the number of accounts.
If you have to use say Orca + 3 Hulks + frigate vs Orca + 4 Hulks, you just lost up to 20% of efficiency.
Fleet at this point would be better using a Mack.

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malcovas Henderson
THoF
#62 - 2012-07-31 18:13:59 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:


Warp to celestial(after aligning),warp to Orca, (align to celstial on contact), warp to celestial, warp to rock. what 2 minutes? in every 2-3 hours?



o7


Works great in deadspace pockets.



Granted dedspace might be a little bit of a bind. But then nothing stopping the orca from travelling to the hulk. you have like 2-3hrs to cover 80km max.



o7
Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2012-07-31 18:16:29 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:

I still don't understand where you're claiming the stops are. The hulk mines, dumps ore into the orca (or jetcans it to be tractored) and then keeps mining. If it burns through all its spare sets of crystals, a hauler or the orca brings it more. What exactly is stopping the hulk from achieving maximum yield?

The problem is not "burning through" a set of crystals. As others have noted, that happens very rarely. But what happens much more frequently is that the miner needs to switch from one ore type to another. Maybe the Hemorphite rock is exhausted, and the only other thing in reach is Gneiss. If you don't have Gniess crystals onboard, you have to stop mining, warp back to the station, drop off the Hemorphite crystals, pick up the Gneiss ones, and warp back to the grav site. Even if there is an Orca that holds every crystal in the game, it's probably a good 40-50 km away, delivering crystals for some other guy.

I'll grant that this change could force miners to plan out what they are going to mine, but those plans often break down when you land in the belt, see what's actually close enough to mine, and as other people mine and pop the thing that you were planning on hitting next.
Carola Kessler
Lost Sisters Of New Eden
#64 - 2012-07-31 18:17:02 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Carola Kessler wrote:
The Yield even if tanked base yield in Comparision Mackinaw 310% against Hulk 390%.


So the Mackinaw gets just under 80% the yield of a Hulk. Those people who can properly defend their mining ops will enjoy a 20% higher yield per miner than those who think the best way to mine is to sit in an unsecured belt in highsec.

Welcome to balance. You want top yield, you give up tank and need a hauler.


Uhmmm...How the **** will you properly defend a Mining ops with Hulks having a Underestimated defense?

Look at this cenario.......5 Hulks ( maybe half Yield half tank fitted With Orca support even Shield Harmonizing II Supported ) ....Sitting in belt best allready near / close below the Roid spreadline Orcas relatively Close to them to catch Ore and hand out Crystals if needed ( Each partitioning Corp needs a own Orca to give instant access to Crystals [ this relays on Mining ops from Alliances with certain Corps partitioning in the Mining ops] closely together to fullfill the job ) So....Cloaky Cov ops Target pointer warps in...Bookmarks the best warpinpoint for the gankers + - 1000 meters, A few minutes later a pair of lets say 2 or 3 Smartbomb fitted BC's warps in supported by 3 Catalysts giving firepower where needed and you'll see a big Killmail coming worth about 2 - 4 Billions ISK and nobody really nobody even a guard support can do against it Even Sebo Nado's can't fire until the attackers are all flashy red and this can take cause of Server delay sometimes up to 5 or more seconds which are really enough for the Smarties to get another Cycle out while Concord arrives.

So, that about Hulks need to get protection, and stuff, Think about it...relatively less effort for the gankers if they do and act properly and getting a Killmail worth of Billions.

Sincerly

Carola Kessler
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#65 - 2012-07-31 18:26:30 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
IE today it's a viable choice to keep Orcas away from miners, it counters the typical "hey let's go smartbomb the bunch" effect.
Unless Orcas will be added the ability to "throw" (reverse tractor) crystals to Hulks, this tactic is over.


Or a guy in a frigate could shuttle over a crystal set.

Again: the problem here is a lack of imagination.

For that matter, just how many sets of cyrstals are you going to burn through in that deadspace pocket, that you can't load up before the op and not need to resupply?


Who is going to fly the frigate:

- The guy in the Orca, removing buffs from everybody.

- The guys in the Hulks, factually making 1 of them far less efficient than a Mack and (for deadspace pockets) having to run again 80 km inside?


Stop assuming everybody can always fly 20 men fleets with all the bells and whistles. It only empowers blobbers again and again, in a game already suffering from over-blobbing.

Fleet = 2 people upwards.
I can understand Hulks catering from Orca "worthy" fleets only and upwards but then it has to work with setups involving Orca + 3 Hulks upwards not just when you have abundant "no doers" paying a subscription just to sit idle somewhere waiting to deliver crystals.

Also, part of the efficiency is also in the number of accounts.
If you have to use say Orca + 3 Hulks + frigate vs Orca + 4 Hulks, you just lost up to 20% of efficiency.
[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha]Fleet at this point would be better using a Mack.

So...use a Mack.

You're complaining that you can't get max yield AND this AND that. I keep saying it: this is what we call BALANCE. In PVP, I have to choose between mobility, durability, and firepower. Why do you expect it to be any different?

Also, you ignored my last question: just how many sets of cyrstals are you going to burn through in that deadspace pocket, that you can't load up before the op and not need to resupply?

I've never seen a deadspace mining op that would wipe out three full crystal sets.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#66 - 2012-07-31 18:30:48 UTC
Seems like most people are fine with the changes, other than Vaerah
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#67 - 2012-07-31 18:31:33 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
The problem is not "burning through" a set of crystals. As others have noted, that happens very rarely. But what happens much more frequently is that the miner needs to switch from one ore type to another. Maybe the Hemorphite rock is exhausted, and the only other thing in reach is Gneiss. If you don't have Gniess crystals onboard, you have to stop mining, warp back to the station, drop off the Hemorphite crystals, pick up the Gneiss ones, and warp back to the grav site. Even if there is an Orca that holds every crystal in the game, it's probably a good 40-50 km away, delivering crystals for some other guy.

I'll grant that this change could force miners to plan out what they are going to mine, but those plans often break down when you land in the belt, see what's actually close enough to mine, and as other people mine and pop the thing that you were planning on hitting next.

You just nailed it. Rather than warping out with every crystal type in your hold, you scout the grav site with a survey scanner, put a couple of numbers into a spreadsheet you built, and know exactly how much of each type of ore there is and how many crystals you're going to use. Then you can assign ore types to specific miners and get them the proper crystals. With some experience and refinement, we're talking five to plan out a mutli-hour mining operation.

As a former wormhole resident, that's very little time and preparation. Anyone who can't be bothered to do that little bit of work needs to be in a mackinaw solo mining.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#68 - 2012-07-31 18:31:41 UTC
Carola Kessler wrote:


Uhmmm...How the **** will you properly defend a Mining ops with Hulks having a Underestimated defense?

Look at this cenario.......5 Hulks ( maybe half Yield half tank fitted With Orca support even Shield Harmonizing II Supported ) ....Sitting in belt best allready near / close below the Roid spreadline Orcas relatively Close to them to catch Ore and hand out Crystals if needed ( Each partitioning Corp needs a own Orca to give instant access to Crystals [ this relays on Mining ops from Alliances with certain Corps partitioning in the Mining ops] closely together to fullfill the job ) So....Cloaky Cov ops Target pointer warps in...Bookmarks the best warpinpoint for the gankers + - 1000 meters, A few minutes later a pair of lets say 2 or 3 Smartbomb fitted BC's warps in supported by 3 Catalysts giving firepower where needed and you'll see a big Killmail coming worth about 2 - 4 Billions ISK and nobody really nobody even a guard support can do against it Even Sebo Nado's can't fire until the attackers are all flashy red and this can take cause of Server delay sometimes up to 5 or more seconds which are really enough for the Smarties to get another Cycle out while Concord arrives.

So, that about Hulks need to get protection, and stuff, Think about it...relatively less effort for the gankers if they do and act properly and getting a Killmail worth of Billions.

Sincerly

Carola Kessler



Don't be so niave. Thats an organized gank. Kudos to them for doing it. Shame on the mining fleet for letting it happen.



o7
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#69 - 2012-07-31 18:39:52 UTC
Carola Kessler wrote:

Uhmmm...How the **** will you properly defend a Mining ops with Hulks having a Underestimated defense?


Mining in highsec? Perhaps find a dead-end system (there's hundreds of them), and then keep an eye on local?

If you are in a mining op in a dead-end system, and see 5+ people show up in local all at once, and still happen to get ganked, you deserved it.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#70 - 2012-07-31 18:40:28 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Carola Kessler wrote:
Uhmmm...How the **** will you properly defend a Mining ops with Hulks having a Underestimated defense?


You establish proper security on your gate and don't let anyone through. Oh wait, you're thinking in terms of high sec. Yeah, it's impossible to properly secure highsec. You probably shouldn't be using hulks there if you can't figure out how to keep them safe from ganks. If only there were going to be some tankier exhumer options...

Carola Kessler wrote:

Look at this cenario.......5 Hulks ( maybe half Yield half tank fitted With Orca support even Shield Harmonizing II Supported ) ....Sitting in belt best allready near / close below the Roid spreadline Orcas relatively Close to them to catch Ore and hand out Crystals if needed ( Each partitioning Corp needs a own Orca to give instant access to Crystals [ this relays on Mining ops from Alliances with certain Corps partitioning in the Mining ops] closely together to fullfill the job ) So....Cloaky Cov ops Target pointer warps in...Bookmarks the best warpinpoint for the gankers + - 1000 meters, A few minutes later a pair of lets say 2 or 3 Smartbomb fitted BC's warps in supported by 3 Catalysts giving firepower where needed and you'll see a big Killmail coming worth about 2 - 4 Billions ISK and nobody really nobody even a guard support can do against it Even Sebo Nado's can't fire until the attackers are all flashy red and this can take cause of Server delay sometimes up to 5 or more seconds which are really enough for the Smarties to get another Cycle out while Concord arrives.

So, that about Hulks need to get protection, and stuff, Think about it...relatively less effort for the gankers if they do and act properly and getting a Killmail worth of Billions.


Well yeah, if you make a nice neat ball of ships so that they can land a smartbomb fleet in the middle of it and then finish the gank with some catalysts, you're in trouble. But if you properly tank your hulks, spread them out just a bit, and use ECM drones those gankers will fall flat on their faces. Or more likely, simply pass you over.

I used to mine frequently. We'd field an orca with four hulks. We weathered HAG 4 mining in Ikao, which took some heavy ganks during that event. We even watched the fireworks of several failed attempts on our fleet. I'm not some griefer or nullbear telling you how to play a part of the game I've never played. Half my time in Eve was spent exploring and mining in highsec.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Demolishar
United Aggression
#71 - 2012-07-31 18:44:36 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Who is going to fly the frigate:

- The guy in the Orca, removing buffs from everybody.

- The guys in the Hulks, factually making 1 of them far less efficient than a Mack and (for deadspace pockets) having to run again 80 km inside?



The new player who can't really do anything else and we are meant to be helping get established easier perhaps?
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#72 - 2012-07-31 18:46:47 UTC
Demolishar wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Who is going to fly the frigate:

- The guy in the Orca, removing buffs from everybody.

- The guys in the Hulks, factually making 1 of them far less efficient than a Mack and (for deadspace pockets) having to run again 80 km inside?



The new player who can't really do anything else and we are meant to be helping get established easier perhaps?


Oh noes, but that would mean we'd have to talk to other people, rather than using our fleet of alts to mine a belt. Roll
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2012-07-31 18:48:59 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Check it in tomorrow's build and see if you feel differently


i both love you for the good news, and hate you for being so vague as to say "wait and see".


The reason I'm not giving stats is because I want people to actually go onto the test server and try the changes out rather than just theorycrafting on the forums basing their opinions of numbers that they have no source for and screenshots that provide little context.


(Also I don't know what they areBear)

What have you done to the real Dev Goliath? where is he? LOL

Dude glad to see you are taking a diffrent approach with the kids. been waiting to see which one of you kids would do that.

TO THE TEST SERVER I GO!!!!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#74 - 2012-07-31 19:06:50 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
Seems like most people are fine with the changes, other than Vaerah


Maybe because I am the only voice talking for those who won't field 20+ ships but for the majority who field 5-8?

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#75 - 2012-07-31 19:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Andoria Thara wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Who is going to fly the frigate:

- The guy in the Orca, removing buffs from everybody.

- The guys in the Hulks, factually making 1 of them far less efficient than a Mack and (for deadspace pockets) having to run again 80 km inside?



The new player who can't really do anything else and we are meant to be helping get established easier perhaps?


Oh noes, but that would mean we'd have to talk to other people, rather than using our fleet of alts to mine a belt. Roll


Point me out where it's forbidden to use alts in a fleet.

EvE LIVES on people using alts.

Last fleet op I had it was 2 corps, 13 ships. 2 players behind it.

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AdmiralJohn
The Unknown Bar and Pub
#76 - 2012-07-31 19:09:19 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Who is going to fly the frigate:

- The guy in the Orca, removing buffs from everybody.

- The guys in the Hulks, factually making 1 of them far less efficient than a Mack and (for deadspace pockets) having to run again 80 km inside?


Stop assuming everybody can always fly 20 men fleets with all the bells and whistles. It only empowers blobbers again and again, in a game already suffering from over-blobbing.

Fleet = 2 people upwards.
I can understand Hulks catering from Orca "worthy" fleets only and upwards but then it has to work with setups involving Orca + 3 Hulks upwards not just when you have abundant "no doers" paying a subscription just to sit idle somewhere waiting to deliver crystals.

Also, part of the efficiency is also in the number of accounts.
If you have to use say Orca + 3 Hulks + frigate vs Orca + 4 Hulks, you just lost up to 20% of efficiency.
Fleet at this point would be better using a Mack.


HTFU and stop complaining about having to make friends in a social game.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#77 - 2012-07-31 19:11:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
AdmiralJohn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Who is going to fly the frigate:

- The guy in the Orca, removing buffs from everybody.

- The guys in the Hulks, factually making 1 of them far less efficient than a Mack and (for deadspace pockets) having to run again 80 km inside?


Stop assuming everybody can always fly 20 men fleets with all the bells and whistles. It only empowers blobbers again and again, in a game already suffering from over-blobbing.

Fleet = 2 people upwards.
I can understand Hulks catering from Orca "worthy" fleets only and upwards but then it has to work with setups involving Orca + 3 Hulks upwards not just when you have abundant "no doers" paying a subscription just to sit idle somewhere waiting to deliver crystals.

Also, part of the efficiency is also in the number of accounts.
If you have to use say Orca + 3 Hulks + frigate vs Orca + 4 Hulks, you just lost up to 20% of efficiency.
Fleet at this point would be better using a Mack.


HTFU and stop complaining about having to make friends in a social game.


I routinely made fleets with 4 corps plus 1 - 2 new NPC corp guys in retrievers who are nice so I invited them.

So, your point is?


Edit:

My point is: today we have choices even within the Hulks route. Choices are good.

What you and the other blobbers want is some crap canned WoW-esque 1 way to play and the rest is verboten.
Sorry I am for freedom of choices, I prefer having no single change than a buff that corrals gameplay in 1 canned direction.

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Dave stark
#78 - 2012-07-31 19:11:45 UTC
AdmiralJohn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Who is going to fly the frigate:

- The guy in the Orca, removing buffs from everybody.

- The guys in the Hulks, factually making 1 of them far less efficient than a Mack and (for deadspace pockets) having to run again 80 km inside?


Stop assuming everybody can always fly 20 men fleets with all the bells and whistles. It only empowers blobbers again and again, in a game already suffering from over-blobbing.

Fleet = 2 people upwards.
I can understand Hulks catering from Orca "worthy" fleets only and upwards but then it has to work with setups involving Orca + 3 Hulks upwards not just when you have abundant "no doers" paying a subscription just to sit idle somewhere waiting to deliver crystals.

Also, part of the efficiency is also in the number of accounts.
If you have to use say Orca + 3 Hulks + frigate vs Orca + 4 Hulks, you just lost up to 20% of efficiency.
Fleet at this point would be better using a Mack.


HTFU and stop complaining about having to make friends in a social game.


because the game is full of friendly people who don't want to blow your **** up for the lulz, take all your isk because they can etc.

people in this game are paranoid and rightly so.
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#79 - 2012-07-31 19:18:54 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

My point is: today we have choices even within the Hulks route. Choices are good.

What you and the other blobbers want is some crap canned WoW-esque 1 way to play and the rest is verboten.
Sorry I am for freedom of choices, I prefer having no single change than a buff that corrals gameplay in 1 canned direction.


It's hard to take you serious when we're talking about MINING, and having choices. The only choice I see with mining is which type of rock do you feel like shooting today.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#80 - 2012-07-31 19:22:24 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
What you and the other blobbers want is some crap canned WoW-esque 1 way to play and the rest is verboten.
Sorry I am for freedom of choices, I prefer having no single change than a buff that corrals gameplay in 1 canned direction.

But you do have choices with the new paradigm, CCP is simply changing those choices around. Where before you simply chose the Hulk because :maxyield: you now have two other options that can work. If Macks work better for your fleet, having the mid-range yield and more cargo, then you should use them. Others will adapt to the new Hulk paradigm.

There really is no problem here besides nitpicking. CCP has literally handed you awesome on a silver platter. ****, I'm going to train up Mining Barge (for other reasons, but they're literally awesome ships now).

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.