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Developer Comments on Mining Crystals and Cargo Capacity?

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Dave stark
#441 - 2012-08-05 07:31:13 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
For God's sake, does it really hurt anybody if the cargo bay can hold a decent crystal loadout? Roll

it hasn't so far...
Pipa Porto
#442 - 2012-08-05 07:36:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Dave stark wrote:

tl;dr answer to my question, we gained nothing. ok.


Besides the ability to go AFK some 3 times longer than you could in an expanded Hulk?

Changes don't happen in a vacuum.


Oh, and if you're that worried about your Crystals, Cargo rig and Cargo expand your Hulk. You'll get at least 700m3.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#443 - 2012-08-05 07:39:48 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

tl;dr answer to my question, we gained nothing. ok.


Besides the ability to go AFK some 3 times longer than you could in an expanded Hulk?

Changes don't happen in a vacuum.


doesn't really work when asteroids don't last that long, not to mention the mackinaw has nothing to do with this since... we're talking about the hulk, since it's the only ship ccp decided should have to deal with this ******** new idea.
Pipa Porto
#444 - 2012-08-05 07:43:17 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

tl;dr answer to my question, we gained nothing. ok.


Besides the ability to go AFK some 3 times longer than you could in an expanded Hulk?

Changes don't happen in a vacuum.


doesn't really work when asteroids don't last that long, not to mention the mackinaw has nothing to do with this since... we're talking about the hulk, since it's the only ship ccp decided should have to deal with this ******** new idea.


Changes don't happen in a vacuum. The Hulk has a new role. It no longer has the role of "Want Mine, must Mine Hulk." The role is now "I want to mine in a specific set of circumstances in which I can use the Hulk's bonuses to their maximum effect."

In other words, sometimes the Mackinaw will be better for you. If your circumstances are such that the Crystals present an intractable problem, use a Macinaw. If you can rub two brain cells together and notice that you're hauler comes to the belt awfully empty, use a Hulk.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#445 - 2012-08-05 07:45:43 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
For God's sake, does it really hurt anybody if the cargo bay can hold a decent crystal loadout? Roll


Does it really hurt anybody if it can't?

Miners are getting an across the board buff that fails to meet at least a third of the goals CCP set out for the Barge/Exhumer re-balance. And they're complaining about the one tiny bugbite that'll be trivially dispensed with in normal operations.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#446 - 2012-08-05 07:51:19 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

tl;dr answer to my question, we gained nothing. ok.


Besides the ability to go AFK some 3 times longer than you could in an expanded Hulk?

Changes don't happen in a vacuum.


doesn't really work when asteroids don't last that long, not to mention the mackinaw has nothing to do with this since... we're talking about the hulk, since it's the only ship ccp decided should have to deal with this ******** new idea.


Changes don't happen in a vacuum. The Hulk has a new role. It no longer has the role of "Want Mine, must Mine Hulk." The role is now "I want to mine in a specific set of circumstances in which I can use the Hulk's bonuses to their maximum effect."

In other words, sometimes the Mackinaw will be better for you. If your circumstances are such that the Crystals present an intractable problem, use a Macinaw. If you can rub two brain cells together and notice that you're hauler comes to the belt awfully empty, use a Hulk.


mining crystals have nothing to do with which ship is better for which situation, changing the subject doesn't make you right.

the simple fact is there is absolutely no reward for having to deal with this crap. it shouldn't be an issue to begin with. it simply brings nothing interesting or helpful to mining. it's 100% drawback with no gain.
Frying Doom
#447 - 2012-08-05 08:02:46 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

tl;dr answer to my question, we gained nothing. ok.


Besides the ability to go AFK some 3 times longer than you could in an expanded Hulk?

Changes don't happen in a vacuum.


doesn't really work when asteroids don't last that long, not to mention the mackinaw has nothing to do with this since... we're talking about the hulk, since it's the only ship ccp decided should have to deal with this ******** new idea.


Changes don't happen in a vacuum. The Hulk has a new role. It no longer has the role of "Want Mine, must Mine Hulk." The role is now "I want to mine in a specific set of circumstances in which I can use the Hulk's bonuses to their maximum effect."

In other words, sometimes the Mackinaw will be better for you. If your circumstances are such that the Crystals present an intractable problem, use a Macinaw. If you can rub two brain cells together and notice that you're hauler comes to the belt awfully empty, use a Hulk.


mining crystals have nothing to do with which ship is better for which situation, changing the subject doesn't make you right.

the simple fact is there is absolutely no reward for having to deal with this crap. it shouldn't be an issue to begin with. it simply brings nothing interesting or helpful to mining. it's 100% drawback with no gain.

I will admit I'm not sure why this is a problem, the hulk is a fleet ship so just store the crystals on the orca and change out. If you solo mine either use the cargo hold to store the between 22 and 13 crystals and jetcan or if you want a better ore storage you loose some yield to gain that bonus with the mack. Personally I always use an Orca but I will not be using paper thin hulks now alternatives are available.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#448 - 2012-08-05 09:50:41 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
For God's sake, does it really hurt anybody if the cargo bay can hold a decent crystal loadout? Roll


It's game breaking, no previous EvE exploit or moon goo duping even comes close.

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Qel Hoth
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#449 - 2012-08-05 10:12:20 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Wtih canned Exhumers the choices are much less, the need to reload is canned as well.

Some times the hull is a big part of the choice (WTB HPL Drake).


As of now it's not a choice. The drawbacks plus the micromanagement make it quite stupid to use Hulks over Macks. Even if you both have fleet and defenders.
Unless someone wants to use bots to overcome the micromanagement part that is, but that should not be part of balancing a ship.



I'm a bit late to the party, but so far this is what I've gathered.

Orcas can't always give Hulks new crystals because they might be far away.
Haulers won't be near the Hulks if the Orcas are far away.
Not always possible to warp directly to the miners (deadspace mining and such)
Your fleets have defenders.

The defenders are presumably in PVP fit ships, which means they have MWDs. Why can't the Hulk say "I need 3 of X crystal" in fleet, the defender shuttles said crystal from the Orca to the Hulk? All of this can be done in less than 1 cycle of a strip, even if the defenders have to travel from the Hulks to the Orca and back.


Also, you are saying that not carrying any crystal you want decreases your choices. I would argue otherwise. If a Hulk could carry 1 set of every crystal in game, there is no choice, to do anything else is illogical. If you must choose between two or three of the 15 odd crystal types, you must make a choice as to what you will bring with you.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#450 - 2012-08-05 10:35:14 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
For God's sake, does it really hurt anybody if the cargo bay can hold a decent crystal loadout? Roll


Does it really hurt anybody if it can't?

Miners are getting an across the board buff that fails to meet at least a third of the goals CCP set out for the Barge/Exhumer re-balance. And they're complaining about the one tiny bugbite that'll be trivially dispensed with in normal operations.



But what's the negative involved? Why expend the effort to oppose such a trivial buff? Is there no more pressing problem that deserves a 23 page thread?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Dave stark
#451 - 2012-08-05 11:09:45 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
For God's sake, does it really hurt anybody if the cargo bay can hold a decent crystal loadout? Roll


Does it really hurt anybody if it can't?

Miners are getting an across the board buff that fails to meet at least a third of the goals CCP set out for the Barge/Exhumer re-balance. And they're complaining about the one tiny bugbite that'll be trivially dispensed with in normal operations.



But what's the negative involved? Why expend the effort to oppose such a trivial buff? Is there no more pressing problem that deserves a 23 page thread?


who cares how pressing the issue is. the fact it's reached 23 pages indicates there's some thing to be looked at here.

and what buff? there is no buff? having to deal with crystals is just added tedium and time for no reward. crystals aren't being improved, the hulk's yield isn't better etc. all we have been given is a pain in the arse to deal with.
Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#452 - 2012-08-05 11:31:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jagoff Haverford
Qel Hoth wrote:
If a Hulk could carry 1 set of every crystal in game, there is no choice, to do anything else is illogical. If you must choose between two or three of the 15 odd crystal types, you must make a choice as to what you will bring with you.
Except that the Hulk *can* carry 1 full set of every crystals it needs, provided that it never leaves Empire space. In hisec, there are only 4 ores to worry about in any given system. So there are no "meaningful choices" to be made there, at least with respect to crystal selection. You load up with a full set of 12 crystals, plop in 4 spare new ones, and never think about it again. No need to get in a fleet. No need to have an alt haul crystals out to you. No need to worry about what rocks are currently in the belt. In Empire space, the ship with the maximum yield has no real limitations.

If this burden was being placed on everyone who mined, I could see your point. But it's limited only to those who mine outside of Concord's protection.
Tyrton
Imbecile MIiss Managment and Disasters
Intergalactic Interstellar Interns
#453 - 2012-08-05 11:42:47 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Hulks aren't meant for soloing. Use a mackinaw, which requires less crystals.

In a hulk, you can just refit off the orca.


no you can't! my alt can't see in the corp hangar of my main's orca. even worse if you're in an npc corp because you can't even get roles to alleviate this problem.

even worse on multi-corp ops.


Right-click, configure ship, allow fleet access...



Shhhh don't tel him that there is a right click with options!
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#454 - 2012-08-05 13:02:45 UTC
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/11/QuarkShip.jpg

We need a new ORE ship - THIS...forget crystals, and hulks, and rocks.... be one with the "garbage", be one with the "garbage"!

Ok, maybe not... but having been on SISI testing these ships over and over (because the are the only ones on TQ I bother to own and use for production purposes... my thoughts if this is the way it's going to be...

T1 covetors all the way... forget using T2, forget exhumers (except as shiny toys) and get the BPOs and build them in bulk, then mine and mine and mine... lose them to rats, to ganks and just hit the ship-dispenser for another one... mining has just gone to the "throw-away" garbage ships that are cheap fleet builds... if you get more ore out of one then the ISK needed to build it - you WIN Eve.
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#455 - 2012-08-05 14:50:34 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
But really, just log into sisi, fit a hulk with t2 laser and a t2 crystal, mine a rock that matchs the crystal for one cycle and compare the results with the laser info.


One would think that this would be a standard practice after making such a change...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Pipa Porto
#456 - 2012-08-05 18:53:27 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
For God's sake, does it really hurt anybody if the cargo bay can hold a decent crystal loadout? Roll


Does it really hurt anybody if it can't?

Miners are getting an across the board buff that fails to meet at least a third of the goals CCP set out for the Barge/Exhumer re-balance. And they're complaining about the one tiny bugbite that'll be trivially dispensed with in normal operations.



But what's the negative involved? Why expend the effort to oppose such a trivial buff? Is there no more pressing problem that deserves a 23 page thread?


who cares how pressing the issue is. the fact it's reached 23 pages indicates there's some thing to be looked at here.

and what buff? there is no buff? having to deal with crystals is just added tedium and time for no reward. crystals aren't being improved, the hulk's yield isn't better etc. all we have been given is a pain in the arse to deal with.



And a new ship that allows you to entirely sidestep the "pain in the arse."

With the Hulk able to fit 3 Crystal types, unless you're mining one cycle per Ore type (ludicrously unlikely because there's no sensible reason to be mining in a belt that's already been picked clean like that), you don't need to touch the Orca any more often than you do with the current Cargo expanded Hulk (which fills in around 10m).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#457 - 2012-08-05 19:24:55 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
For God's sake, does it really hurt anybody if the cargo bay can hold a decent crystal loadout? Roll


Does it really hurt anybody if it can't?

Miners are getting an across the board buff that fails to meet at least a third of the goals CCP set out for the Barge/Exhumer re-balance. And they're complaining about the one tiny bugbite that'll be trivially dispensed with in normal operations.



But what's the negative involved? Why expend the effort to oppose such a trivial buff? Is there no more pressing problem that deserves a 23 page thread?


who cares how pressing the issue is. the fact it's reached 23 pages indicates there's some thing to be looked at here.

and what buff? there is no buff? having to deal with crystals is just added tedium and time for no reward. crystals aren't being improved, the hulk's yield isn't better etc. all we have been given is a pain in the arse to deal with.



And a new ship that allows you to entirely sidestep the "pain in the arse."

With the Hulk able to fit 3 Crystal types, unless you're mining one cycle per Ore type (ludicrously unlikely because there's no sensible reason to be mining in a belt that's already been picked clean like that), you don't need to touch the Orca any more often than you do with the current Cargo expanded Hulk (which fills in around 10m).



There's also the issue that currently before these changes go live, default hulk cargo hold is currently 8k M3 unexpanded with rigs and expanders, as others have noted empire this change is not going to really effect them due to only 4 different ore types avail where it WILL affect is null sec mostly and ls to some degree there are people who multi box on multiple alts while in null/sov and lowsec as this means it's more hassle for them, with the way things are on TQ currently people choose to load the hulk cargo hold up with all the crystal types they need and go mining, where with say 4 hulks and a orca they might need 1 or 2 haulers to keep up with the output of the hulks on the orca, this necessitates them having to also fit more frequent trips to drop off crystals which would mean they cant keep up with the output currently of the hulks, or they ahve to get a 3rd hauler alt just to be able to keep up with the output and keep the miners supplied with crystals as well.

What it boils down to is adding a needless extra hassle that doesn't need to be there in the first place.
Also if you compare the volume M3 of laser ammo crystals and mining crystals any reason why the disparity in crystal sizes? one focuses frequencys to cause damage/range etc where the others focus the frequency to specific ore types? yet one is tiny and the other is large, another way to put it, is would people PVPing be happy if they nerfed amarr combat ships cargo holds so that the fleets/roams are then FORCED to have a cloaky hauler along for resupply - which incidently would NOT be fun for the poor sod forced to do so, and fleet/roam engagement wise you can see it now when a fleet jumps through a gate "there's their resupply ship, everyone primary that ship.... pop" "f**K FC crystals burnt out need resupply" "sorry supply ship dead"....
Pipa Porto
#458 - 2012-08-05 21:15:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
There's also the issue that currently before these changes go live, default hulk cargo hold is currently 8k M3 unexpanded with rigs and expanders, as others have noted empire this change is not going to really effect them due to only 4 different ore types avail where it WILL affect is null sec mostly and ls to some degree there are people who multi box on multiple alts while in null/sov and lowsec as this means it's more hassle for them, with the way things are on TQ currently people choose to load the hulk cargo hold up with all the crystal types they need and go mining, where with say 4 hulks and a orca they might need 1 or 2 haulers to keep up with the output of the hulks on the orca, this necessitates them having to also fit more frequent trips to drop off crystals which would mean they cant keep up with the output currently of the hulks, or they ahve to get a 3rd hauler alt just to be able to keep up with the output and keep the miners supplied with crystals as well.

What it boils down to is adding a needless extra hassle that doesn't need to be there in the first place.
Also if you compare the volume M3 of laser ammo crystals and mining crystals any reason why the disparity in crystal sizes? one focuses frequencys to cause damage/range etc where the others focus the frequency to specific ore types? yet one is tiny and the other is large, another way to put it, is would people PVPing be happy if they nerfed amarr combat ships cargo holds so that the fleets/roams are then FORCED to have a cloaky hauler along for resupply - which incidently would NOT be fun for the poor sod forced to do so, and fleet/roam engagement wise you can see it now when a fleet jumps through a gate "there's their resupply ship, everyone primary that ship.... pop" "f**K FC crystals burnt out need resupply" "sorry supply ship dead"....


The large Hidden belt can be mined from two mining perches. Put GSCs there. With the new inventory window, using the GSC is no more difficult than using your cargo hold. Also, there are no extra trips involved in crystal management. The Hauler's warping to the belt empty, so just warp to the belt with crystals instead.

Mining lasers are bigger because they take more minerals. If they were much smaller, we'd load up Itty Vs with them and run them around in Carriers to move minerals.

By the way, Bombers usually have to keep a cloaky hauler with them to provide crystal and topes (for the BLOPS) resupply.

An POS Bashes often require ammunition resupply. That's the rough equivalent of mining; sitting stationary and putting your high slots on some stationary target.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#459 - 2012-08-06 00:56:25 UTC
By the way:
DevBlog wrote:

The Covetor and Hulk cater to group mining operations due to their large mining capability, low EHP and storage, forcing them to rely on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals.
The Retriever and Mackinaw are specifically designed for autonomy purposes, as their large ore bays allow their pilot to stay inside an asteroid belt for longer without having to dock.
The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank, or NPCs, by giving a large enough buffer to react to incoming attacks, while paying for that with a lower mining yield.


Unfortunately, the Mack and Hulk have enough EHP that the Skiff's unnecessary.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#460 - 2012-08-06 06:48:40 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
By the way:
DevBlog wrote:

The Covetor and Hulk cater to group mining operations due to their large mining capability, low EHP and storage, forcing them to rely on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals.
The Retriever and Mackinaw are specifically designed for autonomy purposes, as their large ore bays allow their pilot to stay inside an asteroid belt for longer without having to dock.
The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank, or NPCs, by giving a large enough buffer to react to incoming attacks, while paying for that with a lower mining yield.


Unfortunately, the Mack and Hulk have enough EHP that the Skiff's unnecessary.


You might have surprises. Look at the performance vs the costs. A complete throwaway Covetor is more efficient than a maxed Mack.

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