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Developer Comments on Mining Crystals and Cargo Capacity?

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Anvil44
Quantshure
#401 - 2012-08-03 14:28:26 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Could they simply not just lower the 20% damage rate, or give the crystals 2 hps? It doesn't have to come down to cargo space, but really the need to have spares. 16 hours minimum on a crystal should be more than enough to cut back on how many spares you need, or a spare at all. They should add a way to see how much damage the crystal has from show info too.

The info is there. Right click on the crystal and you can see it (or is it hover over? I don't think so, but my brain is fuzzy this morning and all of a sudden I doubt my memory)

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.
Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#402 - 2012-08-03 14:42:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jagoff Haverford
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
They should add a way to see how much damage the crystal has from show info too.
This. One thing I that amazes me is that if you contract a crystal over to somebody, each crystal's exact percentage of damage is shown on the list of contracted items. But other than that, the only way for a pilot to see how much damage a crystal has is to load it, undock, check the damage, redock, and then try to keep the very damaged crystals separated from the slightly damaged ones.

Again, though.... the cargo space issue has absolutely nothing to do with how long a crystal lasts or the need for spares. It's all about having enough crystals to cover all the different kinds of rocks that are available for mining. At present, the Hulk's cargo space is perfectly acceptable for Empire space, where there are only 4 ore types available in any given belt. The Hulk can carry the 12 crystals needed to cover 4 different ore types without any problem at all, and still have plenty of spares onboard.

But its cargo space is more than a bit limiting for null sec mining, where the large grav site contains 12 different kinds of ore. In fact, in a way, its almost as though the Hulk is being set up to be maximally useful to high sec carebears. All these arguments about fleet management and crystal delivery simply won't apply to them, because they will be able to carry every crystal they need. It's only the miners who head off into more dangerous space that will be adversely affected.

Of course, the cargo capacity or the size of the crystals could still change before August 8th. But they've stayed static on Sisi for days now, even after CCP Goliath's excellent trolling, so I've rather lost hope in that happening.
Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#403 - 2012-08-03 14:46:23 UTC
Anvil44 wrote:
The info is there. Right click on the crystal and you can see it (or is it hover over? I don't think so, but my brain is fuzzy this morning and all of a sudden I doubt my memory)
If you hover over your strip miner while it's in space, you can see the damage amount for the crystal that is loaded into it. But if you are docked, there is no way to right-clilck a crystal, show info on it, and see how much damage it has taken.
Anvil44
Quantshure
#404 - 2012-08-03 14:47:44 UTC
Aaewen Hrothgarson wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha]

...

You get a good few hours out of the crystals you can fit in the hold. Exactly how is this an issue?


I really suggest that you once in your life visit an 0.0 belt and see how many different kinds of asteroids are there - and then estimate how many asteroids of the same type in average. Maybe you (and lots of the others here) won't misunderstood so much.

Basically, CCP takes away flexibility by nerfing the cargo hold after they split the old cargo hold (8000 m3) into an ore bay (7500 m3) and a cargo hold of 350 m3 whereas one would expect 500 m3. Complaints are that this is an unnecessary (and uncalled) hindrance to the already tedious workflow. Brownnosers defend CCPs out of the blue decision at all costs, rationalizing it with "min/max yield" and "tank your hulk" we all had to read for months now, completely ignoring what the thread is about.

On top of that i think CCP Goliath deserves a 10/10 for his trolling.

Well, I've been in both C2 and C5 gravs plus a few null sec sites that had ALL ore types. If anyone thinks they will use all the crystals in their hold, wow, they must be bot mining. Some of those rocks can take a long time to mine and if you don't have haulers to help, you are going to be doing a lot of shuttling which also means changing crystals during your shuttle runs...if you are smart. Somehow, I really think the argument is just not that strong. But, I would be ok with the size of the crystals being reduced somewhat in order to allow for some more in the cargo hold. And unless they have logical reasons for the holds on Hulks to be smaller, all 3 ship types should have the same size cargo holds or the ships with less mining turrets should have proportionally smaller cargo holds.

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.
Anvil44
Quantshure
#405 - 2012-08-03 14:49:21 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Anvil44 wrote:
The info is there. Right click on the crystal and you can see it (or is it hover over? I don't think so, but my brain is fuzzy this morning and all of a sudden I doubt my memory)
If you hover over your strip miner while it's in space, you can see the damage amount for the crystal that is loaded into it. But if you are docked, there is no way to right-clilck a crystal, show info on it, and see how much damage it has taken.

Living in unknown space so I haven't been docked in a mining ship in a very long time. I forgot about that. Thanks.

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.
Rengerel en Distel
#406 - 2012-08-03 15:23:16 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
They should add a way to see how much damage the crystal has from show info too.
This. One thing I that amazes me is that if you contract a crystal over to somebody, each crystal's exact percentage of damage is shown on the list of contracted items. But other than that, the only way for a pilot to see how much damage a crystal has is to load it, undock, check the damage, redock, and then try to keep the very damaged crystals separated from the slightly damaged ones.

Again, though.... the cargo space issue has absolutely nothing to do with how long a crystal lasts or the need for spares. It's all about having enough crystals to cover all the different kinds of rocks that are available for mining. At present, the Hulk's cargo space is perfectly acceptable for Empire space, where there are only 4 ore types available in any given belt. The Hulk can carry the 12 crystals needed to cover 4 different ore types without any problem at all, and still have plenty of spares onboard.

But its cargo space is more than a bit limiting for null sec mining, where the large grav site contains 12 different kinds of ore. In fact, in a way, its almost as though the Hulk is being set up to be maximally useful to high sec carebears. All these arguments about fleet management and crystal delivery simply won't apply to them, because they will be able to carry every crystal they need. It's only the miners who head off into more dangerous space that will be adversely affected.

Of course, the cargo capacity or the size of the crystals could still change before August 8th. But they've stayed static on Sisi for days now, even after CCP Goliath's excellent trolling, so I've rather lost hope in that happening.


The hulk can carry 17 crystals (14 in the hold, 3 in the strips) which if each crystal lasts atleast 16 hours, means you could carry one of each, and spares of the ore type you wanted to prioritize. Being in a null site, you're more than likely not doing it without fleet support either. In either case, the other people in your fleet could simply mine different rocks than you, making crystal management even easier.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#407 - 2012-08-03 15:57:12 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:


The hulk can carry 17 crystals (14 in the hold, 3 in the strips) which if each crystal lasts atleast 16 hours, means you could carry one of each, and spares of the ore type you wanted to prioritize. Being in a null site, you're more than likely not doing it without fleet support either. In either case, the other people in your fleet could simply mine different rocks than you, making crystal management even easier.


Grats on failing theory crafting 101.

No you can't carry 17 crystals, if you do that, you will be unable to swap out crystals. At best if the lasers are preloaded, you could carry along 16 crystals. Myself I usually unload my crystals when I dock, as the next mining run usually consists of different rock targets, and it is easier to just dump the crystals into the hanger and sort out what you need the next time you head out. So really, the max amount of crystals you can take out with unloaded lasers is 14, if you are using used crystals, this works out to 3 sets of crystal types with 1-2 spares each set.

With the new changes I will no longer be able to load my hulk with 4-5 sets I usually take out for a 3-5 hour mining session.

Which will disrupt the meditation patterns I enjoy as the thrum of the mining lasers will be turned off as I have to warp off to get new crystals in the middle of my mining session!

Senex Legio
Rengerel en Distel
#408 - 2012-08-03 16:10:38 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:


The hulk can carry 17 crystals (14 in the hold, 3 in the strips) which if each crystal lasts atleast 16 hours, means you could carry one of each, and spares of the ore type you wanted to prioritize. Being in a null site, you're more than likely not doing it without fleet support either. In either case, the other people in your fleet could simply mine different rocks than you, making crystal management even easier.


Grats on failing theory crafting 101.

No you can't carry 17 crystals, if you do that, you will be unable to swap out crystals. At best if the lasers are preloaded, you could carry along 16 crystals. Myself I usually unload my crystals when I dock, as the next mining run usually consists of different rock targets, and it is easier to just dump the crystals into the hanger and sort out what you need the next time you head out. So really, the max amount of crystals you can take out with unloaded lasers is 14, if you are using used crystals, this works out to 3 sets of crystal types with 1-2 spares each set.

With the new changes I will no longer be able to load my hulk with 4-5 sets I usually take out for a 3-5 hour mining session.

Which will disrupt the meditation patterns I enjoy as the thrum of the mining lasers will be turned off as I have to warp off to get new crystals in the middle of my mining session!


I guess jettisoning one in order to switch it wouldn't work in your extreme edge case scenario? (I really can't say if swapping a crystal actually forces it into your inventory first, or if they do actually swap, so +1 DB point to you).
Perhaps you missed the part where i said they could double the minimum time, meaning you wouldn't carry a spare at all in your 3-5 hour mining session.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#409 - 2012-08-03 16:34:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jagoff Haverford
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
The hulk can carry 17 crystals (14 in the hold, 3 in the strips)
Actually, 13 in the hold. You need to keep at least one crystal's worth of space (currently 25 m3) free to allow room to change from one crystal to another.

Rengerel en Distel wrote:
... which if each crystal lasts at least 16 hours...
Again, the longevity of a crystal's lifespan has nothing to do with this. They last long enough that the need for spares is just about nil, unless one of them is right on the edge of expiring. I'm not worried about carrying spares. I'm worried about being able to carry enough to match the ore types that I'm going to be faced with.

Rengerel en Distel wrote:
... means you could carry one of each...
But I'm talking about the Hulk, not the Skiff. I don't need to carry only one of each. I need to carry THREE crystals for each ore that I'm likely to mine.

Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Being in a null site, you're more than likely not doing it without fleet support either.
I've got plenty of fleet support. But you also need to consider the other game mechanics here. Haulers are given plenty of tools to pick things up during a fleet operation. They have tractor beams to pull the cans in, sometimes from a very long distance away. That works fine. They don't have the same ability to drop things off very easily, however. There are no "repulsion beams", and no spare high slots on an Exhumer to fit a tractor beam of our own. In order to do a delivery, the hauler has to nose right up against me. When the miners are spread out in a large grav site, the delivery times are likely to become painfully long. The Orca's corporate hangar also doesn't do well when the miners come from different corporations in the same alliance, and in any event it also has to be within 2,500 meters to be useful.

Also, don't write off the difficulty of coordinating many different corporations in the alliance who are all working the same grav site. There are often language differences between different corporations. I've been in operations where three different languages (four, you count the Scottish guys whom nobody could ever understand) were being spoken on voice comms. I've learned enough German to be able to communicate the presence of a hostile player in system, but not enough to negotiate who is going to focus upon that last Bistot rock in the grav site.

None of this is to say that it's impossible to use a Hulk in a large grav site, but what possible end does it really serve to make things so damn difficult? High sec miners -- with only 4 different ore types to worry about -- won't face this limitation. The only ones who will be limited will be those in null and wormhole space. How does it make the game even slightly better to put this extra burden of coordination on this small group of miners, while nobody else will need to confront it?
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#410 - 2012-08-03 17:45:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jake Rivers
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:


The hulk can carry 17 crystals (14 in the hold, 3 in the strips) which if each crystal lasts atleast 16 hours, means you could carry one of each, and spares of the ore type you wanted to prioritize. Being in a null site, you're more than likely not doing it without fleet support either. In either case, the other people in your fleet could simply mine different rocks than you, making crystal management even easier.


Grats on failing theory crafting 101.

No you can't carry 17 crystals, if you do that, you will be unable to swap out crystals. At best if the lasers are preloaded, you could carry along 16 crystals. Myself I usually unload my crystals when I dock, as the next mining run usually consists of different rock targets, and it is easier to just dump the crystals into the hanger and sort out what you need the next time you head out. So really, the max amount of crystals you can take out with unloaded lasers is 14, if you are using used crystals, this works out to 3 sets of crystal types with 1-2 spares each set.

With the new changes I will no longer be able to load my hulk with 4-5 sets I usually take out for a 3-5 hour mining session.

Which will disrupt the meditation patterns I enjoy as the thrum of the mining lasers will be turned off as I have to warp off to get new crystals in the middle of my mining session!


I guess jettisoning one in order to switch it wouldn't work in your extreme edge case scenario? (I really can't say if swapping a crystal actually forces it into your inventory first, or if they do actually swap, so +1 DB point to you).
Perhaps you missed the part where i said they could double the minimum time, meaning you wouldn't carry a spare at all in your 3-5 hour mining session.


So you think its actually feasible to jettison a crystal every time you want to swap out a new crystal? Get your head out of your arse.

Used crystals are still used crystals, they will burn out and need to be replaced.

Senex Legio
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#411 - 2012-08-03 18:19:15 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:


So you think its actually feasible to jettison a crystal every time you want to swap out a new crystal? Get your head out of your arse.

Used crystals are still used crystals, they will burn out and need to be replaced.



You still spewing your wannabe mining shite?.


You keep keep talking about this need for more crystals. I think either you are mining in a 1.0 sec site where rocks disappears faster than a bot fleet, when an "AFK" cloaky comes in, or a solo Miner that wants to max yield, over tank while using a hulk instead of the other options.

If you cannot/willnot generate the support the Hulk requires, quite bluntly you should not be using it. Pippa porto put it ever so eloquently


Hulk = Fleet with support.
Mack = Gang or solo


Want to mine in a hulk solo then pay the consequences of doing so. Want to mine in a Hulk like a gang. Then pay the consequences. Want to mine in a hulk with Support. Profit!!!!.

You have blatently got the Head up Arse syndrome.
Dave stark
#412 - 2012-08-03 18:21:19 UTC
it's not like we're asking for anything special with regards to mining crystals, we're simply asking ccp not to make a perfectly fine situation a pointlessly cumbersome and unintuitive one.

is it really that bad that we're asking that?
Anvil44
Quantshure
#413 - 2012-08-03 18:32:59 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
it's not like we're asking for anything special with regards to mining crystals, we're simply asking ccp not to make a perfectly fine situation a pointlessly cumbersome and unintuitive one.

is it really that bad that we're asking that?

According to the latest blog about the change, yes. Guess you can put theory-craft behind and look at real world results to see how it goes...in just 5 short days.

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#414 - 2012-08-03 18:33:38 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
it's not like we're asking for anything special with regards to mining crystals, we're simply asking ccp not to make a perfectly fine situation a pointlessly cumbersome and unintuitive one.

is it really that bad that we're asking that?



It is perfectly reasonable to be asking. You have the intelligence to see why this has happened. You have the intelligence to know this is probably just fine tuning on your part.


I do not agree that more than 9 crystals is needed. I mine in all situations with 6 crystal quite adequately. But then I do have Support. There are those that do not understand this concept, and whine about how bad it is.


o7
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#415 - 2012-08-03 19:23:16 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
it's not like we're asking for anything special with regards to mining crystals, we're simply asking ccp not to make a perfectly fine situation a pointlessly cumbersome and unintuitive one.

is it really that bad that we're asking that?



It is perfectly reasonable to be asking. You have the intelligence to see why this has happened. You have the intelligence to know this is probably just fine tuning on your part.


I do not agree that more than 9 crystals is needed. I mine in all situations with 6 crystal quite adequately. But then I do have Support. There are those that do not understand this concept, and whine about how bad it is.


o7


You know, I have no problem with how someone else likes to play the game.

I am actually overjoyed that you enjoy mining 3 rocks at a time.

My preference however is to have more than 3 choices when I mine, I am used to setting up for 5 different targets, I may go after all 5, or things may work out that you only do 3. But you know what, I feel comfortable with having that choice.

I could almost work with the new limitation of 3 rock choices, but there is not enough room for spare's if you end up with a bunch of used crystals for whatever reason.

There is as much reason for you to not want to change your mining style as there is for me to have to change mine. I respect how you like to mine, show some respect for how others like to mine. It is not asking for much to have more than 3 choices of crystals in the cargohold.

Senex Legio
Dave stark
#416 - 2012-08-03 19:34:12 UTC
Anvil44 wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
it's not like we're asking for anything special with regards to mining crystals, we're simply asking ccp not to make a perfectly fine situation a pointlessly cumbersome and unintuitive one.

is it really that bad that we're asking that?

According to the latest blog about the change, yes. Guess you can put theory-craft behind and look at real world results to see how it goes...in just 5 short days.

marvelous, mining is now even less fun than before.
Infinite Force
#417 - 2012-08-03 19:39:01 UTC
Let's give a real-life, practical example.

It so happens that I have access to an Unexceptional Frontier Deposit in a WH right now. If you don't want to follow the link for numbers, this site contains the following Ore distribution:

  • 1x Arkonor
  • 1x Bistot
  • 1x Crockite
  • 1x Dark Ochre
  • 1x Gneiss
  • 1x Hedbergite
  • 1x Hemorphite
  • 1x Jaspet
  • 1x Kernite
  • 1x Omber
  • 2x Plagioclase
  • 2x Spodumain (eve-survive says 1, overview shows 2)
  • 4x Veldspar

By a simple count, you will see that there are 13 different Ore types there. These are large, but not multi-hour, rocks, and this site will keep a small fleet busy for several hours.

I setup warp-in/out points and pulled together a small fleet comprising an Orca booster (T2 range / cycle gang links & a tractor) with 5 Hulks. I pilot an Orca at 5, so it's better than the Rorqual for me right now. No mining implants and Hulks are set for max yield with 2x MLU II's, T2 strips and Exhumers 5.

You can run the specific cycle yield numbers, but with cargo rigs (still using the old system), I only get 1 full cycle and change.

Next, because the current system allows me, I grabbed a set of crystals for each Ore - with NO spares (I decided to use new crystals for this test).

Starting cargohold: 13 ores x 3 crystals/ore x 50m3 / crystal = 1,950 m3

Interesting side note here. In this particular site, one can do "drive-by mining". You start at the top rocks and work your way between them until it's time to stop & jetcan. When a rock pops, you slow-boat to the next mid spot and mine again till you need to move.

Time to start mining in the time I had to be online.
- For this test, when I was done with a crystal set, I put the used crystals into a can for pickup).

- The Veldspar roids died in less than 1 cycle each with 5 hulks pulling in 50k+ Veld / cycle. It took me longer to warp out/in and line up on these roids than it did to pop them.

In the next three hours I had available to me, I killed the following six rocks:

  • 1x Hedbergite
  • 1x Hemorphite
  • 1x Jaspet
  • 1x Omber
  • 1x Spodumain
  • 4x Veldspar


I have the following left:

  • 1x Arkonor
  • 1x Bistot
  • 1x Crockite
  • 1x Dark Ochre
  • 1x Gneiss
  • 1x Kernite
  • 2x Plagioclase
  • 1x Spodumain

I'll finish this site off just because I can.

What I want to underscore again is the need for multiple crystal types. With a mere 5 hulks, I was filling the Orca about every 13 minutes.

I used 18 unique crystals (6 ores x 3 crystals) in an easy 3 hour fleet mining op. Given 25m3 as the current T2 crystal size:
18 T2 Crystals * 25 m3/crystals = 450 m3 - MINIMUM need.

In this case, my fleet efficiency was directly impacted by being able to move freely about the Grav site.
- I didn't have to wait for a lazy hauler.
- I wasn't waiting on the Orca to return.
- The entire fleet benefited by the hulks being able to be fairly self-sufficient.

Arrow I am fully prepared to work off of a sub-set of crystals as I normally do. However, as I have said previously, all Exhumers (a T2 ship) should be able to carry at least 5 ore types worth of crystals with 2 spares (since you will not always start with new crystals as I did for this test). The Barges (a T1 ship) should be able to hold 3 ore types and 1 spare.

As Jake Rivers pointed out while I was typing this, unless you are in a Mack or Skiff with FEWER strips, your choices are artifically being limited for no reason other than a few people whining that miners are not playing the game the way "a few people" think it should be played.

Jake Rivers wrote:
There is as much reason for you to not want to change your mining style as there is for me to have to change mine. I respect how you like to mine, show some respect for how others like to mine. It is not asking for much to have more than 3 choices of crystals in the cargohold.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#418 - 2012-08-03 19:45:20 UTC
You have an orca with a massive cargo bay and a massive corp bay. Put the crystals in there.
Infinite Force
#419 - 2012-08-03 19:47:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
You have an orca with a massive cargo bay and a massive corp bay. Put the crystals in there.

When you have to start hauling around ammo in a hauler for PvP roams.

"Use an Orca" is about the lamest excuse you can use anymore.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Pipa Porto
#420 - 2012-08-03 19:48:01 UTC
If your Hauler can't effectively supply your Hulks with Crystals, you're better off using the Mackinaw or Skiff.

(By the way, you can pre-seed the belt with GSCs of Crystals using a BR, or smaller cans with a Frigate. Just put them on your route.)

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto