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Developer Comments on Mining Crystals and Cargo Capacity?

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Pipa Porto
#381 - 2012-08-02 22:02:48 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
even with being organised, the fact you have to drop a miner to sit in a hauler is really crippling the hulk's efficiency in smaller groups if you're lacking an orca.

when you have an orca once you get to a fleet of 3 (1 orca 2 hulks) you're not going to be outmined by an unsupported mack fleet, or a supported fleet of any kind of mining ship.
however without the orca the hulks are useless until you're at ~7 accounts because you have to drop a miner to sit in a hauler.

i don't really have an issue with it. it just doesn't make the hulk a feet ship, it makes it an orca ship. if that makes sense?


Yes, it is. That's always been true. If you're group isn't large enough to support a dedicated Hauler, the Mackinaw's right there for you.

The Hulk's a Hauler Supported ship. The Orca's just a much better hauler (allowing you to effectively use the Hulk with 3 fleetmembers instead of 7).

Fleet ship means that it requires a fleet with differentiated roles to be effective. The Alpha Maelstrom is a fleet ship, because without Huginns or Rapiers to Web and TP targets and anti-tackle to deal with small stuff close it, it's useless. It's also pretty bad if you don't have large enough numbers. Same with every other ship that's normally called a "fleet ship."

I think at this point, we're mostly in agreement about the concept that the Hulk needs differentiated support. Whether we want to call it a "Fleet Ship" or a "Needs Differentiated Support Ship" or an "Orca Ship" doesn't seem that important.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Unit757
North Point
#382 - 2012-08-02 22:38:34 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
Oh look, Infinate just asked for what the Hulk ALREADY HAS. It can carry 5 crystal types now. 4 sets in the hold, plus the loaded set. Bang, got what you wanted, now STFU.

Sheesh .. At least spell my name right Sad

Unless they've updated the Cargohold since I came to work this morning, my math from above still stands.

To quote Suddenly Forums ForumKings:
Quote:
oh he mad



You asked for 5 types of crystals, and it currently, with its 350m3 hold, can meet that. You are failing to grasp the fact that in order to be effective with its crystals, it needs fleet support. crystals now can last roughly 80 minutes on full burn with 2 min cycles, and you mean to tell me that in 80 minutes, you cant have a hauler restock you?


Another one who has never mined with T2 lasers and T2 crystals.

Used crystals can burn out at any time, depending on the wear and tear.

Of course you would not know this though, seeing as how you never encountered used crystals before.


Oh, you caught me, Ive clearly never used mining crystals before, or a faction/t2 laser either. I know how crystals work, quiet well actually.

Get off your high horse, and reply with something constructive. Moron.

Anyways, Ill support the hulk having 500m3 (like te covetor) but anything more is rediculious. It isnt a hauler, anything close to, or over 1k is stupid. Combat ships don't even have that much room, and cap boosters arnt small.
Dave Stark
#383 - 2012-08-02 22:48:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
perfectly constructed response eaten by the forum because i'm too tired to click the right button :(
Dave Stark
#384 - 2012-08-02 22:52:49 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
even with being organised, the fact you have to drop a miner to sit in a hauler is really crippling the hulk's efficiency in smaller groups if you're lacking an orca.

when you have an orca once you get to a fleet of 3 (1 orca 2 hulks) you're not going to be outmined by an unsupported mack fleet, or a supported fleet of any kind of mining ship.
however without the orca the hulks are useless until you're at ~7 accounts because you have to drop a miner to sit in a hauler.

i don't really have an issue with it. it just doesn't make the hulk a feet ship, it makes it an orca ship. if that makes sense?


Yes, it is. That's always been true. If you're group isn't large enough to support a dedicated Hauler, the Mackinaw's right there for you.

The Hulk's a Hauler Supported ship. The Orca's just a much better hauler (allowing you to effectively use the Hulk with 3 fleetmembers instead of 7).

Fleet ship means that it requires a fleet with differentiated roles to be effective. The Alpha Maelstrom is a fleet ship, because without Huginns or Rapiers to Web and TP targets and anti-tackle to deal with small stuff close it, it's useless. It's also pretty bad if you don't have large enough numbers. Same with every other ship that's normally called a "fleet ship."

I think at this point, we're mostly in agreement about the concept that the Hulk needs differentiated support. Whether we want to call it a "Fleet Ship" or a "Needs Differentiated Support Ship" or an "Orca Ship" doesn't seem that important.


before i failed at posting my response i had a nice argument for this i'm gonna reduce it to a tl;dr.

orca's cargo isn't what makes hulks better in smaller fleets; it's the boosts as well.
the orca is your only way to boost a mining fleet, in comparison you don't *have* to use a huginn for what you described, you can use a 3 day old character in a rifter.
however adding another mining booster ship isn't the answer it wouldn't solve the hulk's reliance on a mining booster ship.
i think there was some thing else too but i'll be damned if i can remember what it was.
Pipa Porto
#385 - 2012-08-02 23:04:46 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Yes, it is. That's always been true. If you're group isn't large enough to support a dedicated Hauler, the Mackinaw's right there for you.

The Hulk's a Hauler Supported ship. The Orca's just a much better hauler (allowing you to effectively use the Hulk with 3 fleetmembers instead of 7).

Fleet ship means that it requires a fleet with differentiated roles to be effective. The Alpha Maelstrom is a fleet ship, because without Huginns or Rapiers to Web and TP targets and anti-tackle to deal with small stuff close it, it's useless. It's also pretty bad if you don't have large enough numbers. Same with every other ship that's normally called a "fleet ship."

I think at this point, we're mostly in agreement about the concept that the Hulk needs differentiated support. Whether we want to call it a "Fleet Ship" or a "Needs Differentiated Support Ship" or an "Orca Ship" doesn't seem that important.


before i failed at posting my response i had a nice argument for this i'm gonna reduce it to a tl;dr.

orca's cargo isn't what makes hulks better in smaller fleets; it's the boosts as well.
the orca is your only way to boost a mining fleet, in comparison you don't *have* to use a huginn for what you described, you can use a 3 day old character in a rifter.
however adding another mining booster ship isn't the answer it wouldn't solve the hulk's reliance on a mining booster ship.
i think there was some thing else too but i'll be damned if i can remember what it was.


Yeah, and? The Orca combines a Hauler and a Booster for your convenience. That's what allows it to be better than a 3rd mining ship of any flavor. If the Orca didn't exist, the balance would be (as you say) at a 7 person fleet. Below that, the fleet's too small to gain enough benefit from a differentiated fleet, so it's better off with the Mackinaw.

No, you need webs and TPs that can stay on field, which isn't true of Rifters who'll be chased off by anti-tackle. You also have to use a Logi, no real choice there. Regardless, the fleet has to have multiple differentiated roles (which is the important concept), unlike a small gang which could easily be a wolfpack of identically fit frigates.

Call it what you will, the Hulk is designed to be flown in fleets that benefit from differentiated roles. What size fleet that is depends of the fittings, skills, and ships available to the pilots.

Historically, a Fleet has never referred to a group of naval ships that all had the same role. Even in the Age of Sail and the Line of Battle, there were specialized small ships that participated meaningfully in great battles.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave Stark
#386 - 2012-08-02 23:19:07 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Yes, it is. That's always been true. If you're group isn't large enough to support a dedicated Hauler, the Mackinaw's right there for you.

The Hulk's a Hauler Supported ship. The Orca's just a much better hauler (allowing you to effectively use the Hulk with 3 fleetmembers instead of 7).

Fleet ship means that it requires a fleet with differentiated roles to be effective. The Alpha Maelstrom is a fleet ship, because without Huginns or Rapiers to Web and TP targets and anti-tackle to deal with small stuff close it, it's useless. It's also pretty bad if you don't have large enough numbers. Same with every other ship that's normally called a "fleet ship."

I think at this point, we're mostly in agreement about the concept that the Hulk needs differentiated support. Whether we want to call it a "Fleet Ship" or a "Needs Differentiated Support Ship" or an "Orca Ship" doesn't seem that important.


before i failed at posting my response i had a nice argument for this i'm gonna reduce it to a tl;dr.

orca's cargo isn't what makes hulks better in smaller fleets; it's the boosts as well.
the orca is your only way to boost a mining fleet, in comparison you don't *have* to use a huginn for what you described, you can use a 3 day old character in a rifter.
however adding another mining booster ship isn't the answer it wouldn't solve the hulk's reliance on a mining booster ship.
i think there was some thing else too but i'll be damned if i can remember what it was.


Yeah, and? The Orca combines a Hauler and a Booster for your convenience. That's what allows it to be better than a 3rd mining ship of any flavor. If the Orca didn't exist, the balance would be (as you say) at a 7 person fleet. Below that, the fleet's too small to gain enough benefit from a differentiated fleet, so it's better off with the Mackinaw.

No, you need webs and TPs that can stay on field, which isn't true of Rifters who'll be chased off by anti-tackle. You also have to use a Logi, no real choice there. Regardless, the fleet has to have multiple differentiated roles (which is the important concept), unlike a small gang which could easily be a wolfpack of identically fit frigates.

Call it what you will, the Hulk is designed to be flown in fleets that benefit from differentiated roles. What size fleet that is depends of the fittings, skills, and ships available to the pilots.

Historically, a Fleet has never referred to a group of naval ships that all had the same role. Even in the Age of Sail and the Line of Battle, there were specialized small ships that participated meaningfully in great battles.


and nothing, it was just that the hauling isn't the only thing that causes the orca to be the glue holding the fleet together (for want of a better phrase)

in regards to logi; there isn't just 1 logi ship. the scimitar isn't the only logistics ship, you have 4 to pick from. there isn't an alternative to the orca in the same way the alternative to the scimitar is the basilisk.
yeah you probably have a point with the rifter but it's late night here and it was the first ship that came to mind; there are other ships that can step in for the huginn more effectively i'm sure.

i guess i'm just being very nit picky with the whole "just because it's in any old kitchen sink fleet doesn't mean it's the best ship for the situation just because it's role is to be a fleet ship" thing.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#387 - 2012-08-02 23:22:57 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:


Another one who has never mined with T2 lasers and T2 crystals.

Used crystals can burn out at any time, depending on the wear and tear.

Of course you would not know this though, seeing as how you never encountered used crystals before.



I am guessing you have never ever mined in a fleet. Alt's or otherwise. You sad little whining wannabe miner are the one who does not have the clue. You have no clue what "Support" means. You have no clue what "Fleet" means. Basically you have no clue.

I mine in WH space with a Hulk ATM, and believe it of not, get this, you'll honestly love it. I only use 3 crystals+3 spares of the same crystal. Crazy I know. I sometimes surprise even myself. You know why I can do this seemingly impossible thing? well do you? Huh? Huh?
Pipa Porto
#388 - 2012-08-02 23:34:15 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
and nothing, it was just that the hauling isn't the only thing that causes the orca to be the glue holding the fleet together (for want of a better phrase)

in regards to logi; there isn't just 1 logi ship. the scimitar isn't the only logistics ship, you have 4 to pick from. there isn't an alternative to the orca in the same way the alternative to the scimitar is the basilisk.
yeah you probably have a point with the rifter but it's late night here and it was the first ship that came to mind; there are other ships that can step in for the huginn more effectively i'm sure.

i guess i'm just being very nit picky with the whole "just because it's in any old kitchen sink fleet doesn't mean it's the best ship for the situation just because it's role is to be a fleet ship" thing.



The Orca being the only boosting ship is a function of there only being one real type of mining fleet (the type that, well mines). For a given fleet composition and role, there's only one boosting ship that makes any sense. Same with Logi.

The Hauling is the only reason it's better than a third mining ship. Without hauling, you're better off with Mackinaws until ~7 ships or something (back to your example of a POS AFK Orca).

And I'm being picky about the idea that the Hulk's broken because it now requires hauling support to be effective. The Orca's boosts make it a better hauler because it takes up collateral duties (also, the Orca was designed when the Hulk as the be-all end-all mining ship was the idea, so maybe now we should suggest splitting the Orca's roles if the mix is so problematic Twisted).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#389 - 2012-08-02 23:37:48 UTC
…oh, and if it's just boosting you're after, plenty of ships can do that. They might not give the same bonuses, but then again, a Scimitar doesn't provide the same kind of fleet benefits as a Basilisk does.
Dave Stark
#390 - 2012-08-02 23:43:07 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
and nothing, it was just that the hauling isn't the only thing that causes the orca to be the glue holding the fleet together (for want of a better phrase)

in regards to logi; there isn't just 1 logi ship. the scimitar isn't the only logistics ship, you have 4 to pick from. there isn't an alternative to the orca in the same way the alternative to the scimitar is the basilisk.
yeah you probably have a point with the rifter but it's late night here and it was the first ship that came to mind; there are other ships that can step in for the huginn more effectively i'm sure.

i guess i'm just being very nit picky with the whole "just because it's in any old kitchen sink fleet doesn't mean it's the best ship for the situation just because it's role is to be a fleet ship" thing.



The Orca being the only boosting ship is a function of there only being one real type of mining fleet (the type that, well mines). For a given fleet composition and role, there's only one boosting ship that makes any sense. Same with Logi.

The Hauling is the only reason it's better than a third mining ship. Without hauling, you're better off with Mackinaws until ~7 ships or something (back to your example of a POS AFK Orca).

And I'm being picky about the idea that the Hulk's broken because it now requires hauling support to be effective. The Orca's boosts make it a better hauler because it takes up collateral duties (also, the Orca was designed when the Hulk as the be-all end-all mining ship was the idea, so maybe now we should suggest splitting the Orca's roles if the mix is so problematic Twisted).


to be honest the hulk's role and the orca are fine, besides if they made the hulk the best miner when in a fleet without regard to what's in the fleet with it then it would probably still be the best outside of the fleet which puts us back in the situation we're in now.

i still think even with the fleet support of an orca that having to pass crystals back and forth is a pointless waste of every one's time and there's no reason why the hulk shouldn't hold a more reasonable compliment of crystals, i mean, it's hardly breaking game balance on tq right now is it? i know ccp don't want to give the hulk too much cargo space to stop it being a pseudo industrial but still... i honestly don't think putting the cargo bay back to 500m3 is that big of an ask; especially since we didn't get the 150m3 put on to the ore bay when they cut the cargo bay when they rebalanced crystal sizes.
Dave Stark
#391 - 2012-08-02 23:46:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…oh, and if it's just boosting you're after, plenty of ships can do that. They might not give the same bonuses, but then again, a Scimitar doesn't provide the same kind of fleet benefits as a Basilisk does.


this is really the issue; because the orca hauls and boosts it's pretty much the enabler for the hulk. as i said before the hulk is an orca ship rather than a fleet ship.

having a fleet doesn't mean you pick a hulk even though it's role is to be a fleet oriented miner. having an orca makes you pick a hulk. i guess that holds up in the same way you don't jump in to a guardian to rep a drake fleet (because guardians are shield reppers, right? i know less about logi ships than i know about elephants)
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#392 - 2012-08-03 01:59:43 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…oh, and if it's just boosting you're after, plenty of ships can do that. They might not give the same bonuses, but then again, a Scimitar doesn't provide the same kind of fleet benefits as a Basilisk does.


this is really the issue; because the orca hauls and boosts it's pretty much the enabler for the hulk. as i said before the hulk is an orca ship rather than a fleet ship.

having a fleet doesn't mean you pick a hulk even though it's role is to be a fleet oriented miner. having an orca makes you pick a hulk. i guess that holds up in the same way you don't jump in to a guardian to rep a drake fleet (because guardians are shield reppers, right? i know less about logi ships than i know about elephants)

If I was in a group of 4 miners and 2 decent haulers, I would use Hulks rather than anything else.

Not every player in a mining corp can fly Exhumers. I got my start in the profession hauling. That was all I did.

Then I got to mining, and honestly, hauling is more fun. At least more active.

Then I started WH stuff, PI came around (ugh), then got bored and went back to empire to be a vulture. Probably missed a few steps...

Anyway, point is the Hulk works as a fleet ship. It just needs to be a decent fleet rather than a blob of Hulks.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#393 - 2012-08-03 02:47:01 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:


Another one who has never mined with T2 lasers and T2 crystals.

Used crystals can burn out at any time, depending on the wear and tear.

Of course you would not know this though, seeing as how you never encountered used crystals before.



I am guessing you have never ever mined in a fleet. Alt's or otherwise. You sad little whining wannabe miner are the one who does not have the clue. You have no clue what "Support" means. You have no clue what "Fleet" means. Basically you have no clue.

I mine in WH space with a Hulk ATM, and believe it of not, get this, you'll honestly love it. I only use 3 crystals+3 spares of the same crystal. Crazy I know. I sometimes surprise even myself. You know why I can do this seemingly impossible thing? well do you? Huh? Huh?


Can't compare WH mining to SOV mining. Stripping out a Large Grav site requires more than 3 crystal choices.

Senex Legio
Pipa Porto
#394 - 2012-08-03 03:08:46 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:


Can't compare WH mining to SOV mining. Stripping out a Large Grav site requires more than 3 crystal choices.


And many, many hauling runs. Each of which provide you with an opportunity to drop fresh crystals off.

In addition, the large has 2 warpin spots, so you can anchor 2 GSCs in it to hold all the crystals you need for the 25.1 man hours of mining you'll be doing in it (isn't Bloodtear wonderful?).
Anchoring 2 GSCs is the work of 1 Blockade Runner for about 5 minutes. Or it doesn't cost any time if your Itty V or Orca pilot (however you're handling hauling) just anchors it on his first hauling run.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#395 - 2012-08-03 05:14:40 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


In the last 7 days I have sold 20 Hulks and 200 (TWO HUNDREDS) Mackinaws.

T w o h u n d r e d s.


Could that possibly be because the Patch is going to drastically increase the amount of resources that go into building Mackinaws? And people are stocking up now so that they can sell after patch day?


I did not base my business on this, since I had to start making ships well before we knew about the new build requirements and even now it's not set in stone.

But I want to thank you and Tippia for having helped me so much in my Macks speculation, I am going to dedicate a post to you two on MD.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Dave Stark
#396 - 2012-08-03 07:48:44 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Anyway, point is the Hulk works as a fleet ship. It just needs to be a decent fleet rather than a blob of Hulks.


totally. i just think it's misleading that ccp are trying to market it as a fleet ship when really a fleet has nothing to do with it, the only thing that makes the hulk worth using over other ships is an orca; or a blob [~>7] of hulks.

i appreciate you mentioned not all players can fly exhumers however the game can't really be balanced around 6 week old characters, also with low skills this makes the situation even worse because when you get to all of the exhumers at exhumer I where the mackinaw already has a max capacity ore bay and the hulk has a smaller bonus to yield.
Pipa Porto
#397 - 2012-08-03 07:54:09 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Anyway, point is the Hulk works as a fleet ship. It just needs to be a decent fleet rather than a blob of Hulks.


totally. i just think it's misleading that ccp are trying to market it as a fleet ship when really a fleet has nothing to do with it, the only thing that makes the hulk worth using over other ships is an orca; or a blob [~>7] of hulks.

i appreciate you mentioned not all players can fly exhumers however the game can't really be balanced around 6 week old characters, also with low skills this makes the situation even worse because when you get to all of the exhumers at exhumer I where the mackinaw already has a max capacity ore bay and the hulk has a smaller bonus to yield.


This is why the old name for the "Fleet" option, the "Gang," was better.

A Fleet is an organized structure of ships with differentiated roles.
A Gang is a bunch of ships flown together.

Hulks work in fleets, Macks work in Gangs/Solo.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#398 - 2012-08-03 08:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
Dave stark wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Anyway, point is the Hulk works as a fleet ship. It just needs to be a decent fleet rather than a blob of Hulks.


totally. i just think it's misleading that ccp are trying to market it as a fleet ship when really a fleet has nothing to do with it, the only thing that makes the hulk worth using over other ships is an orca; or a blob [~>7] of hulks.



Yeah everyone pretty much knows what CCP is doing to hulks, does not make it more fleet worthy. (pipa is a troll btw) But you are ruining CCP's dream. They really really wanted it to be one. (Sure they only managed to nerf it, even after promising no nerf) But still a sad CCP is a sad CCP. Just go along with it. (pretend its your kid showing you a picture they drew) I am sure, CCP will see the error of their ways and improve the hulk, when their self-esteem is back after your bashing.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Aaewen Hrothgarson
eXtreme Co
SLYCE Pirates
#399 - 2012-08-03 12:11:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha]

...

You get a good few hours out of the crystals you can fit in the hold. Exactly how is this an issue?


I really suggest that you once in your life visit an 0.0 belt and see how many different kinds of asteroids are there - and then estimate how many asteroids of the same type in average. Maybe you (and lots of the others here) won't misunderstood so much.

Basically, CCP takes away flexibility by nerfing the cargo hold after they split the old cargo hold (8000 m3) into an ore bay (7500 m3) and a cargo hold of 350 m3 whereas one would expect 500 m3. Complaints are that this is an unnecessary (and uncalled) hindrance to the already tedious workflow. Brownnosers defend CCPs out of the blue decision at all costs, rationalizing it with "min/max yield" and "tank your hulk" we all had to read for months now, completely ignoring what the thread is about.

On top of that i think CCP Goliath deserves a 10/10 for his trolling.
Rengerel en Distel
#400 - 2012-08-03 14:15:37 UTC
Could they simply not just lower the 20% damage rate, or give the crystals 2 hps? It doesn't have to come down to cargo space, but really the need to have spares. 16 hours minimum on a crystal should be more than enough to cut back on how many spares you need, or a spare at all. They should add a way to see how much damage the crystal has from show info too.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.