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Developer Comments on Mining Crystals and Cargo Capacity?

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Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#221 - 2012-08-01 07:41:18 UTC
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:

I think the OP wants to have a ship that is the best yield, tank, and hauler. That is a dumb idea and won't happen, and he knows it.
Thanks for telling me what I wanted. But you got it wrong. I just wanted to make sure that somebody at CCP responded to at least one of these threads, so that we could tell that they were aware of the issue. I didn't want the Test Forum Feedback threads to go ignored, like they were with the Unified Inventory roll-out.

And a developer did respond. And things are going to change on Sisi sometime today. And that's really all I cared about.

All the crap that's gone on since then has been mildly -- very mildly -- entertaining, perhaps. But it's all pointless. It's all just speculation, since nobody's seen what the test server will bring today. Obviously, there will be changes, and in all likelihood these changes will allow the Hulk to carry a larger number of crystals into the belts.

And then the entire argument can start all over again. I can't say that I will bother to keep track of it next time. As I said back in the original post, I don't particularly need to like these changes, or agree with how CCP responds to the issue. But I do appreciate knowing that they are aware of it.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#222 - 2012-08-01 10:58:11 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:

The reason I'm not giving stats is because I want people to actually go onto the test server and try the changes out rather than just theorycrafting


And every page afterward: theorycrafting.


Real! I must say I rubbed my eyes a bit this morning when I saw this had somehow gotten to 12 pages with zero information. Nothing like theorycrafting on baseless speculation! Big smile

Changes will be up on Sisi in the next 2 hours.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#223 - 2012-08-01 11:02:21 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Changes will be up on Sisi in the next 2 hours.


They won't test them, because it's hard to whip people up into a hysterical rage when they are armed with the facts.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Dave stark
#224 - 2012-08-01 11:05:44 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Changes will be up on Sisi in the next 2 hours.


They won't test them, because it's hard to whip people up into a hysterical rage when they are armed with the facts.


and the fact that the sisi mirror is that old half of my skills are missing to test it thoroughly. then again you don't have to sit there for 6 hours mining to know how many crystals you can put in a cargo hold.
Upde
Upde Harris Industries
#225 - 2012-08-01 11:17:21 UTC
As a self sufficient industrialist who mines, builds and marketeers I don't see what the issue is ??

YOu can't expect the Hulk to be a one man roid melting machine without it needing any kind of support..... anyone who wants this is mental. The Orca was designed specifically to support mining ops, it has corp hangars which can be be configured for fleet use. So if you want to stay out in the field longer it means you need to have an orca there to resupply you as needed.

If you are solo mining then I don't see the problem either. You are going to have to haul back to the station everytime your ore bay is full. So when you want to swap roid type simply refit when you are docked in the station.

A lot of these posts read like people are asking for everything on 1 ship. EvE is about team work. Team work is rewarded, solo work is possible but for the love of jebus don't expect it to be as rewarding as working in a team.
Dave stark
#226 - 2012-08-01 11:21:52 UTC
Upde wrote:

A lot of these posts read like people are asking for everything on 1 ship.


no we aren't. we're asking for the exact opposite. we've already got everything on one ship; the mackinaw.
Upde
Upde Harris Industries
#227 - 2012-08-01 11:39:33 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Changes will be up on Sisi in the next 2 hours.


They won't test them, because it's hard to whip people up into a hysterical rage when they are armed with the facts.


and the fact that the sisi mirror is that old half of my skills are missing to test it thoroughly. then again you don't have to sit there for 6 hours mining to know how many crystals you can put in a cargo hold.


if you are on a 6 hour op solo in a hulk you would have to make multiple pit stops to drop off ore. If you are out in the filed for 6 hours with no return it means you are likely in a fleet op with Orca support and dedicated haulers, therefore I still call shenanigans on needing to carry more than 6 crystals at any given point.

Solo miner = multiple pit stops fro drop off, therefore easy enough to change up crystals when docked
Fleet miner = get your Mining support vessel to haul your consumables.

So again I really don't see any issue here. Moreover I don't even think anything needs to be bartered to get more cargo space specifically to alleviate this problem because there actually isn't a problem.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#228 - 2012-08-01 11:50:14 UTC
Upde wrote:
As a self sufficient industrialist who mines, builds and marketeers I don't see what the issue is ??

YOu can't expect the Hulk to be a one man roid melting machine without it needing any kind of support..... anyone who wants this is mental. The Orca was designed specifically to support mining ops, it has corp hangars which can be be configured for fleet use. So if you want to stay out in the field longer it means you need to have an orca there to resupply you as needed.

If you are solo mining then I don't see the problem either. You are going to have to haul back to the station everytime your ore bay is full. So when you want to swap roid type simply refit when you are docked in the station.

A lot of these posts read like people are asking for everything on 1 ship. EvE is about team work. Team work is rewarded, solo work is possible but for the love of jebus don't expect it to be as rewarding as working in a team.


Which is all well and good, until the Orca is 10-30km away from the mining vessels, pulling jettisoned ore cans with it's bonused tractor beam range and the pilots manage to break a crystal or need to swap to an ore type for which they are down to their last 3.

One issue is simply that: used crystals consume the same amount of cargo space as brand new crystals

The other is that miners need to carry multiple crystal types, usually 3-6 different types in order to be effective, because T2 strips perform worse then T1 strips if you don't have the right crystal loaded.

The hulk already needs a support fleet due to the size of its ore bay. Requiring them to also need support to lug around crystals, spare mining drones and what-not is just pointless tedium.

With the old 8k m3 cargo bay, I could change systems without having to stuff my hulk into my orca or arrange from someone else to move all my crystals, spare drones, and a shuttle hull. Which added up to about 4-5k m3 of space. With the new cargo bay, you now have to make multiple trips to move 2 systems over - or own an Orca, or contract someone to move your stuff. Nor is there cargo room available now to carry a set of T1 strips, for times when you need to fall back because you've run out of T2 crystals or you don't have the right T1/T2 crystals.

(And I still think the Orcas / Rorquals / T1 industrials are going to need cargo space increased or ore bays increased to be competitive with the large ore bays on the Mack/Skiff variants. The new ore bays on the exhumers/barges make the 50k m3 ore bay on the Orca look quaint and outdated. Even the 250k m3 Rorqual ore bay needs a boost to 400-500k m3.)
Dave stark
#229 - 2012-08-01 11:53:46 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:

(And I still think the Orcas / Rorquals / T1 industrials are going to need cargo space increased or ore bays increased to be competitive with the large ore bays on the Mack/Skiff variants. The new ore bays on the exhumers/barges make the 50k m3 ore bay on the Orca look quaint and outdated. Even the 250k m3 Rorqual ore bay needs a boost to 400-500k m3.)


the orca can hold some where near 180k-200k of ore (cba to open pyfa and get the exact number), which is a substantial amount.

just because the orca has an ore bay doesn't mean it's limited to it's ore bay, unlike the new mining ships.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#230 - 2012-08-01 12:03:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Which is all well and good, until the Orca is 10-30km away from the mining vessels, pulling jettisoned ore cans with it's bonused tractor beam range and the pilots manage to break a crystal or need to swap to an ore type for which they are down to their last 3.
…and that just comes down to planning and forethought: make sure you have enough fresh crystals for what you're mining and what you're going after next. If one is getting close to breaking, ask for a refill.

Quote:
The hulk already needs a support fleet due to the size of its ore bay. Requiring them to also need support to lug around crystals, spare mining drones and what-not is just pointless tedium.
Rather seems like the other way around: since the Hulk already requires a fleet to operate properly, it already has someone else to carry those additional crystals along. The only “problem” (and I'm being very generous here) is to figure out a way to get the crystals transported over to the Hulk before they are needed. Again, planning and forethought takes care of that, and seeing as how you can go after 3 ores at once with spares, it should be trivial to cover pretty much every need.

Quote:
With the new cargo bay, you now have to make multiple trips to move 2 systems over - or own an Orca, or contract someone to move your stuff.
Preferably the latter, and this is entirely intentional since it specifically being made awful for solo work so that another ship can fill that role.
Upde
Upde Harris Industries
#231 - 2012-08-01 12:15:10 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Upde wrote:
As a self sufficient industrialist who mines, builds and marketeers I don't see what the issue is ??

YOu can't expect the Hulk to be a one man roid melting machine without it needing any kind of support..... anyone who wants this is mental. The Orca was designed specifically to support mining ops, it has corp hangars which can be be configured for fleet use. So if you want to stay out in the field longer it means you need to have an orca there to resupply you as needed.

If you are solo mining then I don't see the problem either. You are going to have to haul back to the station everytime your ore bay is full. So when you want to swap roid type simply refit when you are docked in the station.

A lot of these posts read like people are asking for everything on 1 ship. EvE is about team work. Team work is rewarded, solo work is possible but for the love of jebus don't expect it to be as rewarding as working in a team.


Which is all well and good, until the Orca is 10-30km away from the mining vessels, pulling jettisoned ore cans with it's bonused tractor beam range and the pilots manage to break a crystal or need to swap to an ore type for which they are down to their last 3.

One issue is simply that: used crystals consume the same amount of cargo space as brand new crystals

The other is that miners need to carry multiple crystal types, usually 3-6 different types in order to be effective, because T2 strips perform worse then T1 strips if you don't have the right crystal loaded.

The hulk already needs a support fleet due to the size of its ore bay. Requiring them to also need support to lug around crystals, spare mining drones and what-not is just pointless tedium.

With the old 8k m3 cargo bay, I could change systems without having to stuff my hulk into my orca or arrange from someone else to move all my crystals, spare drones, and a shuttle hull. Which added up to about 4-5k m3 of space. With the new cargo bay, you now have to make multiple trips to move 2 systems over - or own an Orca, or contract someone to move your stuff. Nor is there cargo room available now to carry a set of T1 strips, for times when you need to fall back because you've run out of T2 crystals or you don't have the right T1/T2 crystals.

(And I still think the Orcas / Rorquals / T1 industrials are going to need cargo space increased or ore bays increased to be competitive with the large ore bays on the Mack/Skiff variants. The new ore bays on the exhumers/barges make the 50k m3 ore bay on the Orca look quaint and outdated. Even the 250k m3 Rorqual ore bay needs a boost to 400-500k m3.)




If the orca pilot has the crystals and you are out of range, then at best you lose a few minutes of mining time if the orca is out of max range of the strip miners on your hulk. This whole thread seems to be a conversation about people being annoyed at maybe being inconvenienced at best by a few minutes.

To be honest if you are being a vigilant miner you are very rarely standing still at 0m/s anyway, unless of course you are running a decent tank and know you can take a couple of alpha strikes to the face while you align and warp so I am still finding it really hard to see why so many people are throwing their arms up in the air ?

I run a small squad consisting of 3 Hulks + 1 Orca, and for the whole time I have been doing that the hulks have never had crystals in their bays. The orca holds the crystals in the corp bay. Yes there have been times where the hulks who were always running aligned to a warp point drifted out of range but at best it took a couple of minutes to get the Orca back to where it needed to be in range for crytsal reload. Milage on this varies of course and for larger ops where the Orca is supporting multiple ships it might be more difficuly, but its not to the point where it needs to be fixed by devs making changes ?
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#232 - 2012-08-01 13:19:22 UTC
Upde wrote:
Milage on this varies of course and for larger ops where the Orca is supporting multiple ships it might be more difficuly, but its not to the point where it needs to be fixed by devs making changes ?


Sadly, the squeaky wheel usually gets most of the grease. We've already seen CCP change the stats of the barges on SiSi multiple times over the past few days, knee jerk reactions.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#233 - 2012-08-01 13:33:20 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:

The reason I'm not giving stats is because I want people to actually go onto the test server and try the changes out rather than just theorycrafting


And every page afterward: theorycrafting.


Real! I must say I rubbed my eyes a bit this morning when I saw this had somehow gotten to 12 pages with zero information. Nothing like theorycrafting on baseless speculation! Big smile

Changes will be up on Sisi in the next 2 hours.


How much longer must I wait!

Senex Legio
Anvil44
Quantshure
#234 - 2012-08-01 13:41:27 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:

The reason I'm not giving stats is because I want people to actually go onto the test server and try the changes out rather than just theorycrafting


And every page afterward: theorycrafting.


Real! I must say I rubbed my eyes a bit this morning when I saw this had somehow gotten to 12 pages with zero information. Nothing like theorycrafting on baseless speculation! Big smile

Changes will be up on Sisi in the next 2 hours.

Zero Information = Best Information. I can make any data and make it work out any way I want. Don't confuse me and my arguments/complaints with facts!

Also, if someone does get on Sisi to post the latest updates, would be appreciated. I would like to know if there are changes to cargo or crystals. Curiosity won't kill me, but it'll be close.

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#235 - 2012-08-01 13:45:34 UTC
Why arent Mining Crystals the same size as laser crystals?

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#236 - 2012-08-01 13:46:49 UTC
New patch downloading.

Senex Legio
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#237 - 2012-08-01 13:47:18 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
good news; nobody likes the new system. doesn't matter if it's better or not in your mind. no miner has responded positively.


How about ex-miners? If I were to train Exhumers 5, I'd be a perfect Hulk pilot, and I own a near-perfect boosting Orca pilot. I could drop corp and jump into a hulk today, if I felt so inclined. I don't, because it bores me and I don't have the large blocks of free time that I had when I *was* mining.

I think the changes are great. The mining ships *needed* variation, instead of the bad/decent/best tier structure they had before. The new setup provides choices for miners, instead of a simple progressing through levels until you get to the best.

When your greatest quibble is that you can't fit enough crystals to sit next to a rock and mine nonstop without resupply in the ship that CCP said was intended for fleet ops, I have to say it's really hard to have sympathy for you.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#238 - 2012-08-01 13:48:46 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
and the fact that the sisi mirror is that old half of my skills are missing to test it thoroughly. then again you don't have to sit there for 6 hours mining to know how many crystals you can put in a cargo hold.


Get specs.

Do math.

Testing is nice, but in the case of mining, accurate numbers can be had without actually flying the ship.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#239 - 2012-08-01 13:50:57 UTC
SISI is up!

Senex Legio
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#240 - 2012-08-01 13:52:34 UTC
And ZERO change to crystal size/cargohold.

Senex Legio