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New dev blog: Upcoming Tutorial Revisions

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Aemonchichi
Limited Access
#81 - 2012-07-30 17:28:34 UTC
great news 8) ccp caring about new player experience is a good thing, this game is just too awesome to only be a niche game, and judging from devblogs and things said by ccp employees at the ATX studio i think they do not plan to make eve too easy

i hope everything works as you guys plan cause new players are the very lifeblood the game we all love needs to continuously be awesome 8)
Elijah Craig
Trask Industries
#82 - 2012-07-30 17:29:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Elijah Craig
I would see these symbols:-

|<< [speed] >>|

And think "back to zero" and "go to max".

Could use those?

They're used on forums etc to mean start and end of thread, so it's in common usage.
Kitt JT
True North.
#83 - 2012-07-30 17:30:02 UTC
I'm curious about part three. It says wrap up. And the next expansion is the winter expansion.

So is this kinda like a "Winter Wrap Up?"
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-07-30 17:32:28 UTC
Please add a "Make a Jump clone" to the beginner tutorials. A major stumbling block for new players is the risk of losing costly (for them) implants early. This makes them shy away form PvP and helps to make them a more risk adverse player in the long run.

Yes, there are options out there to get a jump clone but the new player is unaware of them. Also they typically can't afford one. By the time they find out about JC's and have the ability to access them (standings or isk or in a player corp with access) the damage is already done.

To people who say "risk/reward", you have to get them started... before you can pull the rug out of them. Even a drug dealer says the first hit is free.

Ashina
kKayron Jarvis
#85 - 2012-07-30 17:42:24 UTC
Quote:
Voiceovers are gone for now. We really like them, but as soon as the text stops matching up with the audio it's incredibly distracting, and it's not feasible to continually re-record them as adjustments are made. Until such time as we can get a really good text-to-speech implementation (which we are actively looking at), they're out.


this is a most have for me in ganes if they are not there i do not tended to play lose games!

ccp have a look at http://www.texthelp.com it is what i use.
Istan Mahwi
Aliastra
#86 - 2012-07-30 17:54:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Istan Mahwi
all i wanna say is that roleplaying games have not turned out better due to voice overs. i think that voice overs should be left out of rpgs.

example- Oblivion.

instead of having all the npc's sound ******** by repeating the same things to each other and the player, they could've added layers of depth to each character you encountered. instead of paying actors to say a few lines, they could've more cheaply written a ton more lines and thus the roleplaying aspect would have been deeeeeepened.

get more ppl into eve! i approve of the NPE initiative! ARRRRR

Edit* you guys censor "r e t a r d e d"?....

.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#87 - 2012-07-30 18:21:16 UTC
CCP Sisyphus wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:

I've written up a series of training guides and drills over the years for instructors to help players understand some fundamentals. I'm wondering if CCP would be interested if I shared these with them to see if they could find a way to implement them through software? They're designed from the perspective of demonstrating game mechanics, not simply lecture. They break the material down into small pieces and drills that can be repeated. I'd prefer to do this through private mail rather than the public forums if you're interested since it's quite a bit of information. It's on a private wiki i can give you access to.


hit me up with those things :)


Shot you a mail, hope you find them interesting :)

Where I am.
Logix42
Taxation Damnation
#88 - 2012-07-30 18:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Logix42
You say in the devblog players prefer the right-click method. However in step 19 of the tutorial you say
"To look at a ship or other object in space, select it, and use the the Look At button in Selected Item, which looks like an eye."

Either change this to right click instructions, or add a pointer, pointing to the eye on the selected item panel.

Go beyond the edge of space... Explore
Kuetlzelcoatl
#89 - 2012-07-30 18:37:50 UTC
Keen Fallsword wrote:
There is issue you can't align with 2 click on the planet or anything via overview if this thing is not on grid question is why ?



I really hope this is by design. This has been asked for, for so long.

Double clicking to approach can mean ship loss in pvp lag situations when you are ctrl+ clicking to lock targets.

If anythig, it should be optional.
Morigan Omega
Omega Technologies
#90 - 2012-07-30 18:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Morigan Omega
Do the gun/ammo tool tips include skill/implant modifiers in optimal/falloff/dps numbers? I would assume so, but you know what they say about assuming...
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#91 - 2012-07-30 18:43:02 UTC
So in order of things new players hate the most:

-Incarna
-Skill system
-Basic flight system
-MIssions
-Basic Commands

The problem is that fitting and shooting comes way too late in the tutorial. Skills/Incarna/Certifications/Missions are all boring to new players, they want to get into the action and see what the basic mechanics of the game are before getting bogged down in the boring details.

The new players have spoken yet again, CCP. Incarna/MissionsI blows hard and shooting/fitting is cool. Give them what they want!
Logix42
Taxation Damnation
#92 - 2012-07-30 19:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Logix42
In step 23 Learning about corporations you show new players the corporation search window. There are so many options here it is scary. When I open it I can just imagine the new players screaming as you toss them nonchalantly over the cliff.
What about pointing them to something like a list of the "Educational Corps" you have on the Evelopedia?
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Educational_organizations

The sooner you can get players into an engaging active corporation the more likely to stick around. The social aspect of Eve is hugely important. Don't skimp on this part of the tutorial because it's a make or break part of the NPE

Go beyond the edge of space... Explore
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2012-07-30 19:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
CCP Greyscale wrote:
We're very much aware that the way "to hit" works isn't exactly intuitive, but it's not something we're going to solve with a tooltip Smile

Bagehi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Lord Helghast wrote:
There is a mission in the carrier mission tutorials that you learn to die and deal with it... but they are talking the absolute earliest tutorial missions, you can't have people that come in and first thing that happens on undock is there popped its a bad experience.


Oh, I know all that. I'm relatively new to the game so I still vividly remember my own beginner experience not too long ago. I also have been trying the game practically every year since release, trying to get into it, but never really managed to make it stick.

I guess my point is that you can't tell people it's a harsh and unforgiving universe, and pit them against an enemy that can't possibly kill them. When a game is ludicrously easy it is just as much a turnoff as getting popped.

Though I guess it's a moot point anyway. Now that I think about it, I don't believe I ever had anyone I tried to get into this game come even close to getting popped in any tutorial. Heck, even L1s could be done in a snore coma with just one eye open. I guess what I'm saying is that it is a fine line between making the experience beginner friendly, and making it too easy and boring so they quit for lack of challenge. Myself personally, I tend to prefer games where the very first enemies make you work for it rather than just keel over from the first swing. It tends to be more engaging this way.



I totally see your the point, but in practical terms I don't think it's an issue in this case as it's only one mission, you're not going to run into the regen balance-point unless you're *really* slow at killing them, and we've not yet explained how shield regen works so it shouldn't be obvious to new players that eventually they'll reach a point where they're not taking any more damage. In 99% of cases players are going to see their shield going down, realize that they're in danger and kill the enemies really quickly, and in the other 1%, they really do need their hands held Smile


It kinda gives new players an overly soft intro to what is billed as a "hard game" - up the difficulty. Most people who get to the point where they are actually in the tutorial are there fully expecting cold and unforgiving.


EVE is already plenty hard at the beginning without actually killing you outright on your first mission, and with the current level of regen, everyone who's not as confused as as Vincent Athena's wife should get the *impression* that they're immediately in danger and never discover that they were safe all along. If they walk away from that mission feeling like they could've died, then our work here is done.


I strongly disagree. There is another mmo, fallen earth, that puts you in a badass *ship* sends you into a tough mission fully fitted, teaches you one by one how to use everything and how to play. Then kills you, and plops you down into *the rookie ship*

This would not only be fun, to have your 1st impression be this awesome badass rifter for instance, but allows for more teaching to take place and for the death toll to be explained straight up, and not something that makes a player quit down the road. It would get peoples hearts pumping, it would would show them what makes eve fun, it would leave a great taste in their mouth if done right.

For instance you should have the ship explode, and have another ship at the next point to climb into. Here's what I would do. Start the player in a pod. Teach them to board ships in space. Make this ship awesome, have an endless wave mode. Gets the blood pumping. Then make is so you lose your ship.

Now your back in your pod, but super reinforce that your pod is you, not the ship. Use the NPE to gets players in the mind set that the ship is expendable. Then have the player warp away to a spot with another free ship. They board it. SEE that's not you killing the player, that's you teaching the player who eve works. Then explain that they don't want to die while in pod. That they are a pilot and these ships are expendable.

Please CCP, :/ why you no support this.

I mean you could even have... ok I've got it!




1st mission Go to the site and retrieve the military's lost vessel
1.start in rookie ship.
2.learn basics
3.NPCs warp in, you lose your ship in a pitched battle.
4. After battle the game explains how NPCs don't shot at pods
5.Fly to rifter/whatever ship you were sent to retrieve
6.Blow up guys with your badass shiny new ship
7.fly back to station with ship
8.Ship is taken back, rookie ship and lots of free gear and skill books are given so the player and work his way back up to that awesome ship he was just flying.

It doens't have to be the 1st mission, it could be the second. to show how the rookie ships won't be enough. Most players get really confused why they can't keep the rookie ship.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2012-07-30 19:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
oh and I did feedback before saying, awesome job CCP! I'm really happy overall with the direction and the awesomeness of this dev blog : D

"We now teach camera controls outside the station (where there are lots of other players to see) rather than on your own at an acceleration gate."

This and the removal of having to right click to talk to an agent will go a long way and keeping new player around. thanks for the polish!

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#95 - 2012-07-30 19:20:02 UTC
I'm not sure if this is an issue you also encountered, or it was just me messing up the tutorial because I just wanted to show a friend the game and rushed through it but I made a fresh Amarr character on TQ and started the tutorial.

I was given an armor repairer that I needed to use, but I did not have the skill for.
And it didn't help that I had lost half my armor while blowing up a structure, so I was kinda 'stuck' in the tutorial, as I could not tank the...enemies.

I resorted to canflipping in an effort to pay for the skillbook.

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#96 - 2012-07-30 19:23:43 UTC
Che Biko wrote:
I'm not sure if this is an issue you also encountered, or it was just me messing up the tutorial because I just wanted to show a friend the game and rushed through it but I made a fresh Amarr character on TQ and started the tutorial.

I was given an armor repairer that I needed to use, but I did not have the skill for.
And it didn't help that I had lost half my armor while blowing up a structure, so I was kinda 'stuck' in the tutorial, as I could not tank the...enemies.

I resorted to canflipping in an effort to pay for the skillbook.


The first mission gives the skill book but you do not need to use it untill you receive the standerd repairer on the second mission.

Rushing is a bad idea though becouse it does not give the skill time to train.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2012-07-30 19:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Che Biko wrote:
I'm not sure if this is an issue you also encountered, or it was just me messing up the tutorial because I just wanted to show a friend the game and rushed through it but I made a fresh Amarr character on TQ and started the tutorial.

I was given an armor repairer that I needed to use, but I did not have the skill for.
And it didn't help that I had lost half my armor while blowing up a structure, so I was kinda 'stuck' in the tutorial, as I could not tank the...enemies.

I resorted to canflipping in an effort to pay for the skillbook.


I remember 5 years ago when you started players off with 300,000 sp. You removed that since you didn't want to give players too many options right away and confuse them. Well that's true, but maybe starting them off with 120,000 sp or something small, nothing beyond level 1, would be a smarter system.

If it was up to me, I would remove those basic skills books from the market even. Give everyone the basic skills at level 1 when they start. Making players inject free skill books is pointless and adds a layer of complexity that's unnecessary. There are so many skills in eve that players will need to buy and train. The core skills should be something all pilots know.

Aren't new players told they just graduated from piloting school? And this is the 1st mission they get to show they know what they are doing? Why would a student who went to school for 4 years not know how to use an armor repairer.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#98 - 2012-07-30 19:33:53 UTC
Salpun wrote:
The first mission gives the skill book but you do not need to use it untill you receive the standerd repairer on the second mission.

I'm quite sure I was not given one, as I could not find it anywhere, but it might be that I failed to accept the gift. I would assume it would just appear in the hangar, and that it would be mentioned somewhere in the tutorial, but I did not see it.

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#99 - 2012-07-30 19:35:57 UTC
Che Biko wrote:
Salpun wrote:
The first mission gives the skill book but you do not need to use it untill you receive the standerd repairer on the second mission.

I'm quite sure I was not given one, as I could not find it anywhere, but it might be that I failed to accept the gift. I would assume it would just appear in the hangar, and that it would be mentioned somewhere in the tutorial, but I did not see it.

It droped into your hanger or will with the NPE this next week.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2012-07-30 19:43:28 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Mirajane Cromwell wrote:
Few years ago as a newbie one of the hardest things to understand was how weapon range + tracking works in Eve. At first I thought Falloff included Optimal, I had no clue that falloff meant also reduced hit chance or what signature resolution and radius stats in ships meant etc. After some months of playing someone nice enough showed me this: Eve tracking. After seeing this, it all became clear to me and combat became a lot easier for me. I hope the new tutorials show something like in the above link.

Secondly, in the devblog there's the weapon tooltip. It's nice and dandy but could the tooltip also display the maximum range of weapon (optimal + 2x Falloff) and mention on Falloff range line that the weapon has reduced hit chance at this range?

Then there's the "monsters" called trackingspeed / accuracy in weapon stats and ship's transversal speed that affects hitting the target - it's probably not related to these tutorials but in future revisions of fitting screen, could some dev f.ex add a new info to fitting screen that gives the following info for weapons: Tracks target at optimal range with transversal speed less than "calculated speed value here". I think something like this would help a lot of players to understand what those rad/s and transversal speeds mean.


Don't worry I'm working on some sexy video tutorial love for this. Maybe so good CCP will think about putting it in game

Salpun wrote:
Che Biko wrote:
Salpun wrote:
The first mission gives the skill book but you do not need to use it untill you receive the standerd repairer on the second mission.

I'm quite sure I was not given one, as I could not find it anywhere, but it might be that I failed to accept the gift. I would assume it would just appear in the hangar, and that it would be mentioned somewhere in the tutorial, but I did not see it.

It droped into your hanger or will with the NPE this next week.


see? stupid. If anything maybe the NPE should inject and force the skill to level 1 on it's own.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg