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More PI canon please!

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YuuKnow
The Scope
#1 - 2012-07-30 06:24:44 UTC  |  Edited by: YuuKnow
Almost everything in Eve has a rich and well thought out canon too it. From the pod design, to clone technology, to FTL travel, to even camera drones to explain the external ship view. However, when it comes to PI there is a gashing void in terms of canon, backstory, and technology.

For example, what miracle tech allows instanteous production of hi-tech facilities....? Even POSes take hours to anchor; why do planetary structures appear within miliseconds.... some sort of StarCraft Protos teleport tech?

What fuels these ultra-sophisticated factories? Fusion? Subspace entanglement?

What of the 'workers'? Are the factories run by self-propelled automated machines, droids, and vehicles? Are there human workers doing the day to day task? If so, how are they transported and how are they maintained on the planet? How do they fit into the insta-teleport that PI currently uses?

PI is probably the weakest port of the Eve universe when it comes to 'story' and immersion. I sincerely wish the devs would give it more attention to flesh out its depth. Even gamechanges to put it in-line with more plausible operation (perhaps a 24 hour 'build-time' before things become active?) would be better than things are now.

yk
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#2 - 2012-07-30 06:44:11 UTC
Back when there were more variations of buildings on the market for PI, there were answers fo some of your questions in the descriptions.

Other areas of PF have stated that aneutronic fusion is the dominant form of power generation in New Eden. Almost everyone uses it for large and small needs. I would suspect that the Command Center houses a fusion reactor, providing power to the other buildings.

Most of the buildings had (or have) references to automated production that minimizes or completely excludes the need for human labor. Drones, robotics, and a skeleton crew are all you'd probably expect to see. There are some places that would use a larger human staff though, but which ones I can't say for sure.

http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=15-06-10

This chron here mentions vaguely the deployment of some new PI. It states the process is automated, so we can assume it isn't built by hand. Gas giant facilities ingame reference how much easier it is to deploy them since they can be safely dropped just about anywhere and happily float in place.

From that, I think we can assume it's an orbital deployment, Perhaps massive landing craft that plop down new buildings or at least some sort of deployment vehicle. Maybe they are dropped down in sections and put together on site, or transform from deployment configuration to production configuration.

Just some thoughts/

Katrina Oniseki
Horatius Caul
Kitzless
#3 - 2012-07-30 11:55:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Horatius Caul
FTL, cloning and camera drones, the things you reference, all had their articles written before the game launched. If you look at non-combat game elements that were introduced after the game was released, there is much less fluff for them. Starbases have 0 articles and hardly any descriptive texts, Invention has a single chronicle.

PI was launched in a time when, despite what some bitter veterans would have you believe, there were actually people who cared about providing background for EVE. Thus is has this relative trove of fluff:

Chronicle: Xenocracy
Chronicle: Burnt

PI: Command Centers (including WIP ones from early release)
PI: Extractor control centers (New)
PI: Extractors (Old)
PI: Industry
PI: Launch pads
PI: Storage

Amarrad - Amarr language project
YuuKnow
The Scope
#4 - 2012-07-31 01:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: YuuKnow
Horatius Caul wrote:
FTL, cloning and camera drones, the things you reference, all had their articles written before the game launched. If you look at non-combat game elements that were introduced after the game was released, there is much less fluff for them. Starbases have 0 articles and hardly any descriptive texts, Invention has a single chronicle.


I can understand POS's intrinsic and inuitative fiction.. Large orbital labs/control towers that are bought and operated in space. They are bought pre-manufactured and hauled into orbit and activated/anchored (prbaoby with some sortof gravometric tech, etc.)

Nonetheless, PI is doing some pretty, for lack of a better word, 'lame' stuff even by hand-wavium standards. Being able to instanteously build and manufacture complex mega-factories within 2 minutes... its just too much not to cheapen the Universe created.

CCP has prided itself on making a rich and deep universe, but has left some pretty glaring absurdities that personally ruin the 'fidelty' of the virtual universe they are trying to create.


Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Other areas of PF have stated that aneutronic fusion is the dominant form of power generation in New Eden. Almost everyone uses it for large and small needs. I would suspect that the Command Center houses a fusion reactor, providing power to the other buildings.

Most of the buildings had (or have) references to automated production that minimizes or completely excludes the need for human labor. Drones, robotics, and a skeleton crew are all you'd probably expect to see. There are some places that would use a larger human staff though, but which ones I can't say for sure.

http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=15-06-10

This chron here mentions vaguely the deployment of some new PI. It states the process is automated, so we can assume it isn't built by hand. Gas giant facilities ingame reference how much easier it is to deploy them since they can be safely dropped just about anywhere and happily float in place.

From that, I think we can assume it's an orbital deployment, Perhaps massive landing craft that plop down new buildings or at least some sort of deployment vehicle. Maybe they are dropped down in sections and put together on site, or transform from deployment configuration to production configuration.

Just some thoughts/


Fair enough in regards to the power source. However, the description in the items doesn't correlate with the actual gameplay which highlights the problem. The Jove-like miracle technology that is seen everytime a extractor control unit is teleported into place and is fully operational in less than 1 sec, isn't what's written in the item desciption.

I would be in favor of a few gameplay changes to bring the Eve universe back into 'validity'. One is rename the "command center" as the Central Synthesis Unit to explain its job to synthesize all the other buildings. Two is to apply 'build times' to all PI changes to at least simulate the building of the structions, links. Perhaps a 24 hour buildtime on all structions before its active. The handwavium would be the Central Synthesis Unit processes the raw materials of the planet into structures. Heavy Movers hoist the structures into place. Fusion Torch ships bore through landscape brutally to build roads, tunnels, and flight paths for raw materials to move.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

yk
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#5 - 2012-07-31 02:51:34 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:

Those are my thoughts anyway.

yk


Good stuff. PI does need some love and iteration.

Katrina Oniseki
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#6 - 2012-07-31 04:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
A bit of time dilation and this quote from Ante, "All the Sisters of EVE ever asked for in return for their humanitarian assistance was permission to construct cathedrals dedicated to their faith, and over the years they had perfected the science and art of completing such structures in a matter of mere hours."

Not only that, New Eden is developing nanite technology that could explain alot of the process..

The hand wavium is present.. Blink

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-07-31 20:13:53 UTC
Also, I wouldn't mind an explanation of why every planet in wormhole space has an orbiting PI command thing....
CCP Headfirst
C C P
C C P Alliance
#8 - 2012-08-01 17:44:47 UTC
Most of the PI structures come partially pre-assembled right out of the factory. After being transported down to the surface of the planet, drones, nanites, and/or MTACs are used to assemble the various pieces and complete all of the necessary electronic, communication, and environmental components. This arrangement allows for each structure to go from storage to activation in as little time as possible. After all, time is money, especially in New Eden.

It can be safely assumed that most PI structures are powered by either fusion reactors or ambient sources, such as geothermal ducts on lava worlds or wind turbines on storm worlds. One would think that how each structure works would be as diverse as the individual manufacturers that built them, but in the end, as long as the lights are on and the machinery functions, few people would really mind where the juice comes from.

As for work forces, this would be largely decided by the influence of each empire, either during construction, sovereignty of the system, or allegiance of the capsuleer. Amarr facilities would be run by slaves, Gallente by drones, Caldari by advanced automation, and Minmatar by resourceful technicians. This is the same rationale we used when determining crew contingents for each empire's starships. In all cases, however, it is safe to assume that there is at least some human presence, even if only there in a management, maintenance, scientific, or political role.

I hope this answers your questions.
YuuKnow
The Scope
#9 - 2012-08-04 22:18:02 UTC
CCP Headfirst wrote:
Most of the PI structures come partially pre-assembled right out of the factory. After being transported down to the surface of the planet, drones, nanites, and/or MTACs are used to assemble the various pieces and complete all of the necessary electronic, communication, and environmental components. This arrangement allows for each structure to go from storage to activation in as little time as possible. After all, time is money, especially in New Eden.

It can be safely assumed that most PI structures are powered by either fusion reactors or ambient sources, such as geothermal ducts on lava worlds or wind turbines on storm worlds. One would think that how each structure works would be as diverse as the individual manufacturers that built them, but in the end, as long as the lights are on and the machinery functions, few people would really mind where the juice comes from.

As for work forces, this would be largely decided by the influence of each empire, either during construction, sovereignty of the system, or allegiance of the capsuleer. Amarr facilities would be run by slaves, Gallente by drones, Caldari by advanced automation, and Minmatar by resourceful technicians. This is the same rationale we used when determining crew contingents for each empire's starships. In all cases, however, it is safe to assume that there is at least some human presence, even if only there in a management, maintenance, scientific, or political role.

I hope this answers your questions.


Thanks for the input Headfirst.

However, still, your descriptions actually re-inforces the problem that exist with PI. Unlike almost every aspect of Eve where the game mechanics and the lore reinforce each other and are congruent, the description of PI manufacturing above isn't represented in the actually player experience and gameplay mechanics. More specifically, no amount of 'super building tech' justifies 1 second... yes, 1 second... build times. It makes PI a red thumb in the gameplay universe and pretty much snaps a player out of immersion from cheap mechanics.

This is what I propose... every aspect of player, corp, or resource development in Eve is built around time investment. From blueprints, to research slots, to manufacturing, to skills, to POS anchoring, they all have time investments that' lend 'fidelity' to the tech porn and lore. For example, if a player were able to instantaneously build a carrier in 5 secs it woud fell pretty lame. I propose something similar to PI where a player plans the layout and then engages a build time. After 24-72 hours he/she comes back to find their structions built and operational.

Now that PI has pretty much populated all systems, their's really no need to make it uber-instanteous anymore (not sure what the reason to do this in the first place as most players would have still invested the time). The above changes would be more consistent with the other game mechanics and cannon IMHO. I hope its something that CCP will consider.
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#10 - 2012-08-05 01:42:49 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:
CCP Headfirst wrote:
Most of the PI structures come partially pre-assembled right out of the factory. After being transported down to the surface of the planet, drones, nanites, and/or MTACs are used to assemble the various pieces and complete all of the necessary electronic, communication, and environmental components. This arrangement allows for each structure to go from storage to activation in as little time as possible. After all, time is money, especially in New Eden.

It can be safely assumed that most PI structures are powered by either fusion reactors or ambient sources, such as geothermal ducts on lava worlds or wind turbines on storm worlds. One would think that how each structure works would be as diverse as the individual manufacturers that built them, but in the end, as long as the lights are on and the machinery functions, few people would really mind where the juice comes from.

As for work forces, this would be largely decided by the influence of each empire, either during construction, sovereignty of the system, or allegiance of the capsuleer. Amarr facilities would be run by slaves, Gallente by drones, Caldari by advanced automation, and Minmatar by resourceful technicians. This is the same rationale we used when determining crew contingents for each empire's starships. In all cases, however, it is safe to assume that there is at least some human presence, even if only there in a management, maintenance, scientific, or political role.

I hope this answers your questions.


Thanks for the input Headfirst.

However, still, your descriptions actually re-inforces the problem that exist with PI. Unlike almost every aspect of Eve where the game mechanics and the lore reinforce each other and are congruent, the description of PI manufacturing above isn't represented in the actually player experience and gameplay mechanics. More specifically, no amount of 'super building tech' justifies 1 second... yes, 1 second... build times. It makes PI a red thumb in the gameplay universe and pretty much snaps a player out of immersion from cheap mechanics.

This is what I propose... every aspect of player, corp, or resource development in Eve is built around time investment. From blueprints, to research slots, to manufacturing, to skills, to POS anchoring, they all have time investments that' lend 'fidelity' to the tech **** and lore. For example, if a player were able to instantaneously build a carrier in 5 secs it woud fell pretty lame. I propose something similar to PI where a player plans the layout and then engages a build time. After 24-72 hours he/she comes back to find their structions built and operational.

Now that PI has pretty much populated all systems, their's really no need to make it uber-instanteous anymore (not sure what the reason to do this in the first place as most players would have still invested the time). The above changes would be more consistent with the other game mechanics and cannon IMHO. I hope its something that CCP will consider.


You know when people complain that saying none in game stuff is immersion braking? While your talking that to a bit of an extreme almost like yelling out at a vptm larp. "Hey you cant step out of character and go take a ****! Your rping a vampire you should have gone before you showed up."

At the end of the day does it really matter?

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
YuuKnow
The Scope
#11 - 2012-08-05 02:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: YuuKnow
The great thing about Eve is that its multifaceted and is a lot of different things to different players. One of Eve's greatest characteristics is that its an ongoing and elaborate creative fiction with impressive depth. I hate to see that cheapened by cheesy mechanics and could easily be fixed.

yk
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#12 - 2012-08-05 10:45:19 UTC
Hey, I got a wild idea.. Maybe, just maybe... The PI interface doesn't happen in realtime lorewise! Crazy, right?
Sara Seraph
Sara Inc
#13 - 2012-08-06 18:46:22 UTC
Always wonder why instead of asking, why not supply some thoughts of our own about "why things are the way they are."
This is suppose to be "the players" game, too.

In my vision - Gallentian - I deploy automated factories with the majority of the work being done by drones. Be interesting to have to purchase industrial drones for a Gallentian station. Amarr would have the logistical problems of slaves, etc,etc.

The concept of the delayed beginning of operation(s), I think there is some merit in that line of thought.

If Dust is to integrate with EVE, that means that the Colony and customs offices are the areas of overlap between the two. Therefore, that to me is the exciting place in the future of EVE/DUST.

Looking forward to the day of... Walking in Stations, customs office, colony office, and the planets!
CCP Headfirst
C C P
C C P Alliance
#14 - 2012-08-06 20:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Headfirst
YuuKnow wrote:
This is what I propose... every aspect of player, corp, or resource development in Eve is built around time investment. From blueprints, to research slots, to manufacturing, to skills, to POS anchoring, they all have time investments that' lend 'fidelity' to the tech **** and lore. For example, if a player were able to instantaneously build a carrier in 5 secs it woud fell pretty lame. I propose something similar to PI where a player plans the layout and then engages a build time. After 24-72 hours he/she comes back to find their structions built and operational.


Unfortunately, this idea is somewhat beyond my capabilities as a writer for EVE, especially now that I'm a level designer for World of Darkness. :)

I think one of the best things about EVE is that great effort has been taken to make the lore match the mechanics as much as possible. A quick glance around the rest of the game industry will return disappointing results in regard to that. However, there will always be a line somewhere, a point at which something needs to happen to make the game work (or work well) that fiction simply cannot address. Also, you will never achieve a consensus among the player base (or the developers, for that matter) as to where that line should be.

That being said, I think one of the best things about the EVE community is the initiative to ask these kinds of questions, debate them at length, and dream up answers when none can otherwise be provided by the developers. EVE players don't just find problems; they often fix a lot of them on their own. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The smartest assholes in the world play EVE. :)

So, to once and for all answer the disconnect between gameplay and storyline, I humbly offer this all-encompassing explanation:

"Nanites."
mkint
#15 - 2012-08-06 21:02:35 UTC
I propose the more advanced explanation ... quantum nanites .

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Murashu
Dead and Delirious
Brotherhood of Spacers
#16 - 2012-08-06 21:05:35 UTC
CCP Headfirst wrote:

Unfortunately, this idea is somewhat beyond my capabilities as a writer for EVE, especially now that I'm a level designer for World of Darkness. :)


Ok spill the beans Mr Headfirst. What's new with WoD?

Since the people working on WiS were recently given the gag order my hopes of having interesting avatar gameplay inside of EVE have been dashed. I've pretty much given up hope for WiS and will just play EVE for the pvp until WoD comes out.

Oh yeah, congrats!
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#17 - 2012-08-06 21:16:42 UTC
I seriously would want to go and lore-ify all of the patch notes but alas time is albit short on my end.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#18 - 2012-08-07 11:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24560275.jpg


Oh, and just noticed:
Telegram Sam wrote:
Also, I wouldn't mind an explanation of why every planet in wormhole space has an orbiting PI command thing....

Are you sure every planet has? Have you been in every wormhole and checked?
Because I have been told by vets:
At the beginning there were no Custom Offices around planets in unknown space! Only after the first capsuleer installed a command center on the planet, Concord (and now Interbus I suppose, these fools) would be notified and install a Custom Office right away.
YuuKnow
The Scope
#19 - 2012-08-07 23:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: YuuKnow
CCP Headfirst wrote:
So, to once and for all answer the disconnect between gameplay and storyline, I humbly offer this all-encompassing explanation:

"Nanites."


Lol. This literally made me laugh out loud. I'll take it... though I also sincerely hope that CCP will consider the changes that I propose above. Especially if there is ultimately going to be some link between PI and Dust 514. If that is so, then some sort of time-investment, rather than instabuids, seems more lending to Dust vs PI combat. Imagine a Dust team working hard to destroy a PI facility, only to have one instantly erected 5 seconds later.

For now it looks like we are going to have to accept PI for what it is... A symbolic representation with a metaphysical time-scale, not indicative of any real planetside happenings.

yk
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#20 - 2012-08-12 18:26:54 UTC
Not long after PI was first released, I compiled all the different descriptions for each of the different buildings, and posted them here...

http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=570.msg5820#msg5820

When PI was streamlined (one type of factory etc.), a lot of these descriptions were lost.
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