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AFK Mining with the new mining barge changes
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Dave stark
#21 - 2012-07-27 09:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
By the Way the the Hulk and the Mack are even for ICE so the Mack will win that fight and the retriever is only 2 pieces of ice behind per hour so once again the retriever is great for high-sec ice mining.


the hulk and mack are not equal for ice.

in fact, they are not equal for anything.



Go fit them up on the test server you will find they are the same.
OR let me save you the hassle,

Hulk cycle 236.01s or 14 cycles an hour and 3 blocks per cycle = 42 Blocks
Mack cycle 170.01 or 21 cycles an hour and 2 blocks per cycle = 42 Blocks
Ret cycle 178.96 or 20 cycles an hour and 2 blocks per cycle = 40 Blocks
Those are without fleet bonuses.




go and see any of the other threads, me and others have done the maths; and all agree on our maths, that the hulk mines more than the mackinaw, which mines more than the skiff.
fleet bonuses do not favour one ship over another. the simple fact is the exhumer bonus for hulks outweighs the third ihu of the mackinaw. the hulk out mines every ship on every ore every time.

the hulk will pull in 75 ice per hour, the mack pulls in 69 ice an hour, and the skiff pulls in 63 ice per hour. the current mackinaw pulls in 75 ice per hour as well. ice yield is unchanged if you bother swapping ship, if you don't then you'll mine less ice.



Well guess what your math is wrong or what you are using for numbers is different then what test server is using.
Cause those numbers listed above come right off of fitted ships on the test server.
If you don't believe me then go check for yourself.
I don't know why your numbers aren't coming up the same but right now on SISI the Mack and the Hulk are putting out the same Yield of ice per hour.



my math is not wrong; nor are the other peoples, and it has been verified on sisi by other people.
considering you're the only one not getting the same numbers as the rest of us, i think you should go and check.

again, due to the fact that the hulk gets an ice bonus per exhumer level and the mackinaw doesn't get a bonus of the same magnitude it means that they can't pull in the same ice/hour. again, go and check.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#22 - 2012-07-27 09:59:42 UTC
Dave stark wrote:




my math is not wrong; nor are the other peoples, and it has been verified on sisi by other people.
considering you're the only one not getting the same numbers as the rest of us, i think you should go and check.

again, due to the fact that the hulk gets an ice bonus per exhumer level and the mackinaw doesn't get a bonus of the same magnitude it means that they can't pull in the same ice/hour. again, go and check.


I am looking at it right now just double checked it.
The times are correct. don't know what to tell you.
Where you putting upgrades in all the low slots for both ships ?
Hulk has 2 where the Mack has 3 ?

Maybe they changed something sense your number were verified on SISI.
Dave stark
#23 - 2012-07-27 10:02:57 UTC
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:




my math is not wrong; nor are the other peoples, and it has been verified on sisi by other people.
considering you're the only one not getting the same numbers as the rest of us, i think you should go and check.

again, due to the fact that the hulk gets an ice bonus per exhumer level and the mackinaw doesn't get a bonus of the same magnitude it means that they can't pull in the same ice/hour. again, go and check.


I am looking at it right now just double checked it.
The times are correct. don't know what to tell you.
Where you putting upgrades in all the low slots for both ships ?
Hulk has 2 where the Mack has 3 ?

Maybe they changed something sense your number were verified on SISI.




ship bonuses are unchanged, i have sisi open right now. all ships fitted for max yield. (yes 3ihu for the mack, and 2 for the hulk, both have an ice rig, max skills and 3% yeti implant and orca bonuses)
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-07-27 10:08:31 UTC
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:




my math is not wrong; nor are the other peoples, and it has been verified on sisi by other people.
considering you're the only one not getting the same numbers as the rest of us, i think you should go and check.

again, due to the fact that the hulk gets an ice bonus per exhumer level and the mackinaw doesn't get a bonus of the same magnitude it means that they can't pull in the same ice/hour. again, go and check.


I am looking at it right now just double checked it.
The times are correct. don't know what to tell you.
Where you putting upgrades in all the low slots for both ships ?
Hulk has 2 where the Mack has 3 ?

Maybe they changed something sense your number were verified on SISI.



Dont try and argue with Dave Stark,

He has proven on multiple occasions that he is as smart as a bag of spanners

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Dave stark
#25 - 2012-07-27 10:10:24 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:




my math is not wrong; nor are the other peoples, and it has been verified on sisi by other people.
considering you're the only one not getting the same numbers as the rest of us, i think you should go and check.

again, due to the fact that the hulk gets an ice bonus per exhumer level and the mackinaw doesn't get a bonus of the same magnitude it means that they can't pull in the same ice/hour. again, go and check.


I am looking at it right now just double checked it.
The times are correct. don't know what to tell you.
Where you putting upgrades in all the low slots for both ships ?
Hulk has 2 where the Mack has 3 ?

Maybe they changed something sense your number were verified on SISI.



Dont try and argue with Dave Stark,

He has proven on multiple occasions that he is as smart as a bag of spanners


he's not trying to argue, he's just presented an incorrect fact. feel free to disprove the maths that i've done. this isn't a matter of opinion or principle, it's mathematical calculation. it is, or it is not.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#26 - 2012-07-27 10:13:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconyx
And it all comes down to what are your cycle times ?

I am showing

Hulk = 236.01
Mack = 170.01
Dave stark
#27 - 2012-07-27 10:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Draconyx wrote:
And it all comes down to what are your cycle times ?

I am showing

Hulk = 236.01
Mack = 170.01

these are the cycle times i, and others, are getting.
varified here.
and here.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#28 - 2012-07-27 10:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconyx
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
And it all comes down to what are your cycle times ?

I am showing

Hulk = 236.01
Mack = 170.01

these are the cycle times i, and others, are getting.
varified here.
and here.


Well those where your old numbers I was curious if they are the same now.
Cause

Ship was refitting and I even put in Yeti 3% to see if the 5% were bugged but.

So I am now getting with a 3% implant under "Activation Time / duration"
Hulk - 240.98 T2 Ice Harvester + (2) Ice Harvester Upgrades
Mack - 173.59 T2 Ice Harvester + (3) Ice Harvester Upgrades
And Yes I have Exhumers 5.

Have no idea why you are getting different numbers, other then maybe there is a bug.
So CCP what should we be getting ?????
Dave stark
#29 - 2012-07-27 10:34:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
And it all comes down to what are your cycle times ?

I am showing

Hulk = 236.01
Mack = 170.01

these are the cycle times i, and others, are getting.
varified here.
and here.


Well those where your old numbers I was curious if they are the same now.
Cause

Ship was refitting and I even put in Yeti 3% to see if the 5% were bugged but.

So I am now getting under "Activation Time / duration"
Hulk - 240.98 T2 Ice Harvester + (2) Ice Harvester Upgrades
Mack - 173.59 T2 Ice Harvester + (3) Ice Harvester Upgrades
And Yes I have Exhumers 5.

Have no idea why you are getting different numbers, other then maybe there is a bug.
So CCP what should we be getting ?????



you haven't rigged the ship, and you're not in a fleet with an orca bonus.

even with those fits, you're getting 3 more ice per hour with a hulk. 44.8 vs 41.4
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#30 - 2012-07-27 10:47:42 UTC
Dave stark wrote:


you haven't rigged the ship, and you're not in a fleet with an orca bonus.

even with those fits, you're getting 3 more ice per hour with a hulk. 44.8 vs 41.4


Well I said I wasn't in fleet from the start and as far as the rig well it might be listed on the market but you can't purchase it yet.
Which tells me you were getting the same numbers as me when you went to the test server.

3 more ice an hour, really you are going to go there, why am I not surprised.
that is one more cycle, It managed to squeeze before the 3600 sec mark.
Over time will it make a difference, yes.
Enough to merit switching from a Mack to a Hulk.
Nope. Not when you look at the cost and the cargo holds it doesn't.
So in short they are very close when it comes down to it.
Dave stark
#31 - 2012-07-27 11:00:33 UTC
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


you haven't rigged the ship, and you're not in a fleet with an orca bonus.

even with those fits, you're getting 3 more ice per hour with a hulk. 44.8 vs 41.4


Well I said I wasn't in fleet from the start and as far as the rig well it might be listed on the market but you can't purchase it yet.
Which tells me you were getting the same numbers as me when you went to the test server.

3 more ice an hour, really you are going to go there, why am I not surprised.
that is one more cycle, It managed to squeeze before the 3600 sec mark.
Over time will it make a difference, yes.
Enough to merit switching from a Mack to a Hulk.
Nope. Not when you look at the cost and the cargo holds it doesn't.
So in short they are very close when it comes down to it.


and the fleet and rigs are % bonuses, which mean they don't change the order of which ship mines more than which ship.

you stated that they were equal, i just proved they were not. it's not "are you really going there" it's you saying some thing untrue and some one correcting you. if you don't want to be corrected; don't say things that aren't true.

if we're going with the cost argument, **** all the exhumers and mine in a retriever.
sorry i missed your conversation request in game, i was tabbed out. i do apologise.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#32 - 2012-07-27 11:22:22 UTC
That is alright I should have left it alone based on your other threads.
You are not a big picture person.
In this case you got hung up in ~13.49 seconds instead of looking at my entire post.
Well that And you figured in fleet bonuses and a rig that can't be tested yet.
So it was no wonder your number and mine were not even close.

I think we derailed this thread whoops, sorry all OopsOops
Dave stark
#33 - 2012-07-27 11:29:11 UTC
Draconyx wrote:
That is alright I should have left it alone based on your other threads.
You are not a big picture person.
In this case you got hung up in ~13.49 seconds instead of looking at my entire post.
Well that And you figured in fleet bonuses and a rig that can't be tested yet.
So it was no wonder your number and mine were not even close.

I think we derailed this thread whoops, sorry all OopsOops


again, the numbers not being close doesn't change the fact that what you said was incorrect.
if we remove all the fittings and the fleet bonuses and just go with skills/ship bonuses then you're still seeing the hulk go 36 ice an hour vs the mack's 30.
that's a huge 20% difference before fittings.

if we then fill all the lows with ihus we get 43 vs 40, which is what, 7.5% difference? still no where near equal.

and yes, we did derail the thread a bit but at least we've got rid of some misinformation.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#34 - 2012-07-27 11:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconyx
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
That is alright I should have left it alone based on your other threads.
You are not a big picture person.
In this case you got hung up in ~13.49 seconds instead of looking at my entire post.
Well that And you figured in fleet bonuses and a rig that can't be tested yet.
So it was no wonder your number and mine were not even close.

I think we derailed this thread whoops, sorry all OopsOops


again, the numbers not being close doesn't change the fact that what you said was incorrect.
if we remove all the fittings and the fleet bonuses and just go with skills/ship bonuses then you're still seeing the hulk go 36 ice an hour vs the mack's 30.
that's a huge 20% difference before fittings.

if we then fill all the lows with ihus we get 43 vs 40, which is what, 7.5% difference? still no where near equal.

and yes, we did derail the thread a bit but at least we've got rid of some misinformation.


Not misinformation you are stuck on a 1 cycle deficit over a one hour period but have failed to bring up the fact of dropping off the ICE and how many cycles will be lost.
Which was the original point I brought up.
Big picture you are presuming fleet ops with haulers when this is a discussion about AFK mining or one or two miners.
Just reread the thread.

Or better yet how big would your fleet have to be to warrant changing into hulks and losing one pilot to a hauler (for Ice) ?
Giving that you lose one cycle to dump off your Ore hold.
Dave stark
#35 - 2012-07-27 12:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
That is alright I should have left it alone based on your other threads.
You are not a big picture person.
In this case you got hung up in ~13.49 seconds instead of looking at my entire post.
Well that And you figured in fleet bonuses and a rig that can't be tested yet.
So it was no wonder your number and mine were not even close.

I think we derailed this thread whoops, sorry all OopsOops


again, the numbers not being close doesn't change the fact that what you said was incorrect.
if we remove all the fittings and the fleet bonuses and just go with skills/ship bonuses then you're still seeing the hulk go 36 ice an hour vs the mack's 30.
that's a huge 20% difference before fittings.

if we then fill all the lows with ihus we get 43 vs 40, which is what, 7.5% difference? still no where near equal.

and yes, we did derail the thread a bit but at least we've got rid of some misinformation.


Not misinformation you are stuck on a 1 cycle deficit over a one hour period but have failed to bring up the fact of dropping off the ICE and how many cycles will be lost.
Which was the original point I brought up.
Big picture you are presuming fleet ops with haulers when this is a discussion about AFK mining or one or two miners.
Just reread the thread.


even solo hauling you'll still mine more in a hulk. you can scoop 2hrs worth of solo mined ice in 1 trip where a mackinaw will have had to make 3 trips, wasting cycles. the mackinaw loses more mining time by not jetcanning than the hulk does by jetcanning.
in fact, if you mine the maximum haulable in one sitting by cycling jetcans then you'll be solo mining for just over 3.5 hours. the mackinaw will have to make 5 trips. the hulk has to make 2 trips. one to change ship, one to haul.

the mackinaw is NOT an efficient mining ship; it is a lazy one.
in short; the mackinaw mines less per hour, and spends more time warping too and fro unless you're only logged in for very short periods of time.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#36 - 2012-07-27 12:11:48 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
That is alright I should have left it alone based on your other threads.
You are not a big picture person.
In this case you got hung up in ~13.49 seconds instead of looking at my entire post.
Well that And you figured in fleet bonuses and a rig that can't be tested yet.
So it was no wonder your number and mine were not even close.

I think we derailed this thread whoops, sorry all OopsOops


again, the numbers not being close doesn't change the fact that what you said was incorrect.
if we remove all the fittings and the fleet bonuses and just go with skills/ship bonuses then you're still seeing the hulk go 36 ice an hour vs the mack's 30.
that's a huge 20% difference before fittings.

if we then fill all the lows with ihus we get 43 vs 40, which is what, 7.5% difference? still no where near equal.

and yes, we did derail the thread a bit but at least we've got rid of some misinformation.


Not misinformation you are stuck on a 1 cycle deficit over a one hour period but have failed to bring up the fact of dropping off the ICE and how many cycles will be lost.
Which was the original point I brought up.
Big picture you are presuming fleet ops with haulers when this is a discussion about AFK mining or one or two miners.
Just reread the thread.


even solo hauling you'll still mine more in a hulk. you can scoop 2hrs worth of solo mined ice in 1 trip where a mackinaw will have had to make 3 trips, wasting cycles. the mackinaw loses more mining time by not jetcanning than the hulk does by jetcanning.
in fact, if you mine the maximum haulable in one sitting by cycling jetcans then you'll be solo mining for just over 3.5 hours. the mackinaw will have to make 5 trips. the hulk has to make 2 trips. one to change ship, one to haul.

the mackinaw is NOT an efficient mining ship; it is a lazy one.
in short; the mackinaw mines less per hour, and spends more time warping too and fro unless you're only logged in for very short periods of time.


Providing you are willing to leave 3 hours of Ice sitting in a belt so anyone can take it ?
Possible but NOT practical.
In 3 hours you will have 9 more pieces of Ice then with a Mack.
OKay good luck with that one.
Dave stark
#37 - 2012-07-27 12:17:14 UTC
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
That is alright I should have left it alone based on your other threads.
You are not a big picture person.
In this case you got hung up in ~13.49 seconds instead of looking at my entire post.
Well that And you figured in fleet bonuses and a rig that can't be tested yet.
So it was no wonder your number and mine were not even close.

I think we derailed this thread whoops, sorry all OopsOops


again, the numbers not being close doesn't change the fact that what you said was incorrect.
if we remove all the fittings and the fleet bonuses and just go with skills/ship bonuses then you're still seeing the hulk go 36 ice an hour vs the mack's 30.
that's a huge 20% difference before fittings.

if we then fill all the lows with ihus we get 43 vs 40, which is what, 7.5% difference? still no where near equal.

and yes, we did derail the thread a bit but at least we've got rid of some misinformation.


Not misinformation you are stuck on a 1 cycle deficit over a one hour period but have failed to bring up the fact of dropping off the ICE and how many cycles will be lost.
Which was the original point I brought up.
Big picture you are presuming fleet ops with haulers when this is a discussion about AFK mining or one or two miners.
Just reread the thread.


even solo hauling you'll still mine more in a hulk. you can scoop 2hrs worth of solo mined ice in 1 trip where a mackinaw will have had to make 3 trips, wasting cycles. the mackinaw loses more mining time by not jetcanning than the hulk does by jetcanning.
in fact, if you mine the maximum haulable in one sitting by cycling jetcans then you'll be solo mining for just over 3.5 hours. the mackinaw will have to make 5 trips. the hulk has to make 2 trips. one to change ship, one to haul.

the mackinaw is NOT an efficient mining ship; it is a lazy one.
in short; the mackinaw mines less per hour, and spends more time warping too and fro unless you're only logged in for very short periods of time.


Providing you are willing to leave 3 hours of Ice sitting in a belt so anyone can take it ?
Possible but NOT practical.
In 3 hours you will have 9 more pieces of Ice then with a Mack.
OKay good luck with that one.




implying the mack is also jetcan mining; as such why would you use a lower yield ship to begin with?
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#38 - 2012-07-27 12:31:26 UTC
Retriever: Solo miner. Ore bay is larger than a jet can (27k m3) and thus designed with jet can mining in mind.
Covetor: Fleet miner. Much better yield but doesn't have the ore bay to handle its increased yield efficiently. Works best when someone else in the fleet is scooping the ore. Works even better when that ore scooper is an orca providing boosts.

It is a much better choice than

Retriever: What you used until you could fly a covetor
Covetor: What you used very briefly until you could fly a hulk

In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#39 - 2012-07-27 12:33:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconyx
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:


Providing you are willing to leave 3 hours of Ice sitting in a belt so anyone can take it ?
Possible but NOT practical.
In 3 hours you will have 9 more pieces of Ice then with a Mack.
OKay good luck with that one.




implying the mack is also jetcan mining; as such why would you use a lower yield ship to begin with?


Umm No, I have watched people do what you are proposing, that fine different strokes for different folks.

I will take the small hit use a Mack and unload every 15 cycles and take a break and come back and do it again.
And that way if a red / ganker shows up I can warp away with zero loss.

By all means leave your jet cans in the belt for an hour or six your call.
Dave stark
#40 - 2012-07-27 12:41:46 UTC
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:


Providing you are willing to leave 3 hours of Ice sitting in a belt so anyone can take it ?
Possible but NOT practical.
In 3 hours you will have 9 more pieces of Ice then with a Mack.
OKay good luck with that one.




implying the mack is also jetcan mining; as such why would you use a lower yield ship to begin with?


Umm No, I have watched people do what you are proposing, that fine different strokes for different folks.

I will take the small hit use a Mack and unload every 15 cycles which is once an hour and take a break and come back and do it again.
And that way if a red / ganker shows up I can warp away with zero loss.

By all means leave your jet cans in the belt for an hour or six your call.


umm yes, otherwise it's a lot bigger difference than 9 because while you're warping to and fro dumping ore, i'm still mining.

do what you want; i was just illustrating the point that the ore bay doesn't make up for the extra yield of the hulk [unless you're mining for very short periods of time], nothing more.
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