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Time to remove missions from FW
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#21 - 2012-07-26 16:38:50 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
At the very least have an off button for them. If I go into an enemy's mission and am uncontested for three minute, he fails it.

BTW, something like this is the real solution to the "FW mission problem".

Or they could just do what they said would, and make it so you get more lp from plexing than you do from missions.

I think this is due to the nature of the LP payouts which scale exponentially while plexing payouts scale linearly. L1 though L3 missions...... Run plexes instead. L4 missions have better payouts than L4 plexes. The "more fun" option is to give people the ability to grief mission runners.




I think you are right about how they scale.

As far as griefing pveers thats not really my thing.

I think if level 4 missions paid 15-20k lp and level 3 paid about 4-6k the system would work better. (I don't even know what level 1 or 2 missions earn)

We need to recognize that many of the modifications we want to plexing (such as requiring all npcs to be killed and the timer to count back to zero if you are chased off) are effectively nerfs to plexing as a form of isk making. Accordingly if these changes go through - and I hope they do - they will have the undesirable effect of making the missions even more overpowered as an isk generator.

To address this I am just in favor of the quick and easy solution of just reducing lp per mission.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#22 - 2012-07-26 17:03:23 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:
As far as griefing pveers thats not really my thing.

It may not be your thing, but it is the "thing" for many players - both FW and non-FW. Ability to grief will either lead to potentially more pvp encounters as players "ship up" to complete the missions (a good thing) or will be a great "nerf" to the PVE-fit FW mission runners (good thing as well).
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#23 - 2012-07-26 18:41:33 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
As far as griefing pveers thats not really my thing.

It may not be your thing, but it is the "thing" for many players - both FW and non-FW. Ability to grief will either lead to potentially more pvp encounters as players "ship up" to complete the missions (a good thing) or will be a great "nerf" to the PVE-fit FW mission runners (good thing as well).



I agree many like to grief mission runners. Its a good way to pad a killboard with impressive looking kills.

I don't think people will "ship up" to run the missions anymore than people ship up to run regular level 4s in low sec. Pirates attacking mission runners always have the huge advantage of being able to run a dscan and seeing exactly what the mission runner is flying, know what rats they are fighting so they can choose ammo accordingly, plus they dont have the aggro from the rats.

I don't really see the point in completely killing the only successful means to run missions in low sec ever created. But I do agree they pay too much.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Lexmana
#24 - 2012-07-26 18:43:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Cearain wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:
[The see saw works only works when the activity that the winning side does to get lp does not also solidify thier sov advantage.

Good in theory. But in practice sov is solidified by all the farming alts that have more incentive to run missions for the enemy at T4-T5 than oplexing their own militias warzone control.


I do admit I have an alt running missions for tribal liberation.


You are just proving my point. Why are you not fighting for the Amarr instead?

Everybody and their mother has an alt farming for Minmatar. And I am not that surprised you defend the current system. After all, loyalty is always with the ISK.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#25 - 2012-07-26 19:01:03 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:
[The see saw works only works when the activity that the winning side does to get lp does not also solidify thier sov advantage.

Good in theory. But in practice sov is solidified by all the farming alts that have more incentive to run missions for the enemy at T4-T5 than oplexing their own militias warzone control.


I do admit I have an alt running missions for tribal liberation.


You are just proving my point. Why are you not fighting for the Amarr instead?

Everybody and their mother has an alt farming for Minmatar. And I am not that surprised you defend the current system. After all, loyalty is always with the ISK.


I have to make isk. That is why I have an alt running missions for tribal liberation. Fw missions has been the standard way to make isk in faction war for years. When I have enough isk to buy ships I look for pvp in plexes in faction war.

Plus I am not farming "for" minmatar. I am running missions for minmatar npc corp. Unless you are a very serious roleplayer (and believe killing the amarr "sector commander" is really a big deal) there is a big difference. I do not help the minmatar by doing this at all. If anything I devalue their lp.

The fact that people have to spend some time (or real life money) to make isk is just a fact of eve. Do you trade? I could argue that the time you spend adjusting your trades could be time spent running plexes. Do have an alt running level 4s in high sec? Well again you could be running plexes instead. The thing is I have to spend less time making isk by running fw missions than I do if I ran level 4s in high sec. That means more of my eve time can be spent fighting for amarr.

And I am not exactly defending the current system. I am in favor of nerfing the amount you make doing missions. Especially if they make the necessary changes to plexing.

I gave my reasons why I am against totally removing missions in my first response.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Lexmana
#26 - 2012-07-26 19:46:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Cearain wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:
[The see saw works only works when the activity that the winning side does to get lp does not also solidify thier sov advantage.

Good in theory. But in practice sov is solidified by all the farming alts that have more incentive to run missions for the enemy at T4-T5 than oplexing their own militias warzone control.


I do admit I have an alt running missions for tribal liberation.


You are just proving my point. Why are you not fighting for the Amarr instead?

Everybody and their mother has an alt farming for Minmatar. And I am not that surprised you defend the current system. After all, loyalty is always with the ISK.


I have to make isk. That is why I have an alt running missions for tribal liberation. Fw missions has been the standard way to make isk in faction war for years. When I have enough isk to buy ships I look for pvp in plexes in faction war.

You don't see it do you. You are Amarr right. Why are you plexing and missioning for the enemy militia and not for Amarr? And how do you think your (and others like you) actions affect FW as a whole?

Don't tell me it isn't broken.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#27 - 2012-07-26 19:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:
I don't really see the point in completely killing the only successful means to run missions in low sec ever created. But I do agree they pay too much.
You're kidding right? There are hundreds of players who run missions in low sec successfully. Take a trip to Southern Placid sometime and hang out with the 5-6 farmers in dead end L5 mission systems that have even less risk associated with their missioning efforts than the two factions who can solo their FW L4 missions in stealth bombers. There are also a large number of nearly uninhabited systems with L4 agents as well. These guys have it easy. Zero or maybe one jump to a mission. Shoot stuff, get immediate isk. Turn in mission, get immediate isk. etc.... Get in on the constellation-wide intel with their carebear buddies feeding them all the juicy intel...
Solomon Eagle
Oxide Nation
#28 - 2012-07-26 19:55:17 UTC
As someone who turned over 10 billion or so in the last month. I can with clear conscience say I would like to see FW missions removed from the game.

My one wish for FW is that all the filthy exploiting pigs **** off and find a new trough. I personally think they should have some sort of moderating council on each militia responsible for kicking out every char that has a questionable kill record.

The present plexing system is also self-evidently stupid, but thats another story.

Also, before any of the opposition start whining about me wanting missions nerfed/gone after I've extracted my iskies, I am very happy for you all to get your pay day. All the proper militia core want is a return to good pew. Let's face it, it's been lame recently.
Thomas Kreshant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-07-26 19:59:11 UTC
Lexmana wrote:

Don't tell me it isn't broken.


Of course it's broken basically in 0.0 I'm either on team 'I hold all the moons' getting generous reimbursment and other benefits or you're the broke guy always losing space, getting on that winning team takes effort and depending on your choices you can burn bridges and here PVP does have consequences.

In FW you can have your cake and eat it, PVP on the underdog side where you get plenty of targets while still making money on the space rich side because you simply had to sign up.

The way FW is setup it will always be taken advantage of as long as they want the winning side to be able to get higher rewards and while we can make alts at the drop of a hat.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#30 - 2012-07-26 21:26:39 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:


I do admit I have an alt running missions for tribal liberation.


You are just proving my point. Why are you not fighting for the Amarr instead?

Everybody and their mother has an alt farming for Minmatar. And I am not that surprised you defend the current system. After all, loyalty is always with the ISK.


I have to make isk. That is why I have an alt running missions for tribal liberation. Fw missions has been the standard way to make isk in faction war for years. When I have enough isk to buy ships I look for pvp in plexes in faction war.

You don't see it do you. You are Amarr right. Why are you plexing and missioning for the enemy militia and not for Amarr? And how do you think your (and others like you) actions affect FW as a whole?

Don't tell me it isn't broken.


I am not plexing for the enemy militia. Why do you lump running missions and plexing for the enemy as the same? Do you not understand the difference? Running plexes as a minmatar militia hurts amarr running missions as a minmatar militia does not. It actually just devalues the minmatar lp. Your failure to understand this important difference is a big reason why your proposal is not great.

When the minmatar run missions for lp they do not help their sov situation at all. That is why we are climbing back into the war. If we eliminate missions then there will be a strong cry for lp for defensive plexing. The argument will be that they are winning and have no way to actually reap the benefits of the win. If they make lp for defensive plexing this whole system is crap.

Not many in faction war are so hard core rp that running missions for an enemy race npc corp will upset them.

let me ask: Would it bother you if I made money by running missiosn for boundless creation? Running missions for tribal is the same. Those amarrians who have done that and made bank will be much better able to assist in the war effort. Adapt. Look at the rules and figure out how to win within them. Don't just play the way you want and ask ccp to change the rules to fit how you want to play.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#31 - 2012-07-26 21:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Solomon Eagle wrote:
As someone who turned over 10 billion or so in the last month. I can with clear conscience say I would like to see FW missions removed from the game.

My one wish for FW is that all the filthy exploiting pigs **** off and find a new trough. I personally think they should have some sort of moderating council on each militia responsible for kicking out every char that has a questionable kill record.

The present plexing system is also self-evidently stupid, but thats another story.

Also, before any of the opposition start whining about me wanting missions nerfed/gone after I've extracted my iskies, I am very happy for you all to get your pay day. All the proper militia core want is a return to good pew. Let's face it, it's been lame recently.



If ccp really gets a good fix for faction war (like tells you where and when people are attacking plexes) you will have 10 billion explode fairly quickly.

Its getting to be like it was before inferno I agree. But ccp really didn't do anything to make plexing more of pvp mechanic. They just gave rewards for pve. If they do make it a pvp mehcanic you will be very happy you have the 10 billion isk. It will go faster thqan you think.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Lexmana
#32 - 2012-07-26 21:32:22 UTC
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
The way FW is setup it will always be taken advantage of as long as they want the winning side to be able to get higher rewards and while we can make alts at the drop of a hat.

True. Unless there is some mechanic that balance thing in the end like scarcity of LP. But I think CCP counted on the market to devaule LP as a balancing factor. It might just need a slight push.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#33 - 2012-07-26 21:37:51 UTC
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
Lexmana wrote:

Don't tell me it isn't broken.


Of course it's broken basically in 0.0 I'm either on team 'I hold all the moons' getting generous reimbursment and other benefits or you're the broke guy always losing space, getting on that winning team takes effort and depending on your choices you can burn bridges and here PVP does have consequences.

In FW you can have your cake and eat it, PVP on the underdog side where you get plenty of targets while still making money on the space rich side because you simply had to sign up.

The way FW is setup it will always be taken advantage of as long as they want the winning side to be able to get higher rewards and while we can make alts at the drop of a hat.



Its ok that the losing side has some ability to make some isk. Or no one would join that side. Yes missions should be nerfed and plexing should be fixed so that it is a mainly pvp activity.

But really most people in faction war - at least before inferno brought carebears from all over eve - were in it for the pvp. By giving missions a nerf and tweaking the plexing so its pvp ccp can make this work well.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#34 - 2012-07-26 21:40:29 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I don't really see the point in completely killing the only successful means to run missions in low sec ever created. But I do agree they pay too much.
You're kidding right? There are hundreds of players who run missions in low sec successfully. Take a trip to Southern Placid sometime and hang out with the 5-6 farmers in dead end L5 mission systems that have even less risk associated with their missioning efforts than the two factions who can solo their FW L4 missions in stealth bombers. There are also a large number of nearly uninhabited systems with L4 agents as well. These guys have it easy. Zero or maybe one jump to a mission. Shoot stuff, get immediate isk. Turn in mission, get immediate isk. etc.... Get in on the constellation-wide intel with their carebear buddies feeding them all the juicy intel...


Do you have any statistics on how much isk worth of items comes from fw missions as opposed to vanilla level 4 or 5 mission in low sec? I would bet more comes from faction war missions but I really don't know.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#35 - 2012-07-26 21:55:29 UTC
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
getting on that winning team takes effort .
Is that what they call sucking up and kissing the feet of the Tech moon overlords these days, "effort"?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#36 - 2012-07-26 22:10:49 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:
Do you have any statistics on how much isk worth of items comes from fw missions as opposed to vanilla level 4 or 5 mission in low sec? I would bet more comes from faction war missions but I really don't know.

Depends on who you run the mission for, doesn't it? Amarr L4 FW missions pay out much less (about 20 times less) than Minmatar FW L4s.

Put a little risk of failure from griefers in the FW missions and they would probably be fine in terms of payouts - especially since the missions are broadcast for all to see. There is no need to get rid of them entirely. 30k LP at baseline LP store prices was generous but not game breaking. Equivalent 120k LP at Level 5 payout... yes, game breaking - almost as game breaking as equivalent 50k LP payout for speed tanking a minor plex with an afk alt (at L5 payout).

So, guess what I think the "game breaking feature" in all of this is? And CCP had to know this was coming, BTW. They set up LP multipliers to be "game breaking" not only for each faction in FW, but for regular mission runners too. I think they are expecting LP store prices to drop like a brick and that the farmers will move on to the next "faction of the month" sooner rather than later. They are also hoping 0.0 alliances like Nulli Secundi will use FW to restock their war chest so they can have another shot at 0.0.

Edit: In the meantime, just enjoy the massive payouts and the pew-on-steroids.
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