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Barge Fairy Tale

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#981 - 2012-07-27 05:08:11 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
i sat down and looked at some other ships that are of prices comparable to hulks, let's start

a Vigilant costs about the same as a Hulk in Jita and it has more base HP, but inferior resists (being a faction ship) and at all level Vs, unfit, it has 11k EHP. fit for its most common role, dealing HAC-like damage with dual 90% webs, it will only have 20k EHP. a brick tanked heavy tackle fit would increase its EHP to 63k, but it gives up a substantial amount of DPS. also, with dual fed navy webs, its cost goes up to ~400m. add a faction point (which is not uncommon in these ships) and you're looking at close to 500M.

a Devoter isn't much cheaper than a Hulk (difference is like 20M in Jita) and it only has a few thousand more EHP unfit, although this is due to its resist bonus - which is necessary, considering that it tends to be the primary especially when supers are on the field. fit for its primary role, being a brick tanked bubbler, it can field a massive tank - 215k EHP with Damnation bonuses. it also tends to have an entire blob of ships shooting at it.

both of these ships are used in combat and the vigilant's tanking abilities aren't terribly impressive even compared to a hulk. oh and they're generally not AFK in a belt and they're not that great for making ISK.



i know you are trying to make a point...

what it is i have no clue Straight

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
pussnheels
Viziam
#982 - 2012-07-27 05:08:38 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ambassador Crane wrote:
Wow! Nearly 50 pages now of the same arguments being repeated over and over and over and over and over.........

I actually read through about 30 pages before I got bored reading the same basic moans and groans, just rephrased in a colorful rainbow of wording. The whining flows heavily in this thread from both industrialists and gankers alike, although (and I'm personally not suprised) more so from the ganker side.

But what really tickles me reading through this drudge is when I hear gankers arguing over the numbers game in terms of costs. I mean, lets be real here and admit. Most of those who gank mining ships are not doing it for the easy isk (which it definitely is). No, most of them are doing it purely for the "tears". I mean, lets look at the very name of the corp for the OP. Ahh the shear irony of someone part of a corp focused on collecting tears and yet coming to the forums shedding his own. Roll The changes haven't even been implemented yet and what? Business already so slow you gotta make and collect your own??

Then I 'lol'd at the people who claim that miners have been crying and CCP is "stooping down" to give them a buff. How many times have we heard nullsec pvpers (and yeah, I am one) complain that this or that needs to be buffed or nerfed. Or throw in faction warfare. Or throw in war decs. I say cheers to the miners for finally getting a bit of attention from CCP.

What I also think is comical about most people in this thread is that they claim you should fit a hulk for tanking in High Sec. That people shouldn't be capable of AFK mining. I say until CCP makes mining more interesting (and even the pvpers admit mining is incredibly boring though I doubt many of them have done it for more then perhaps 30mins), can you REALLY blame them for doing it at least semi-afk?? I've mined ore and i'm generally thinking. "omg....I'm so bored! Please ganker shoot me so I can have an excuse to end my miserable existance!" And then I tried mining ice....I think that's when i thankfully learned what ctrl-q (or I guess alt-shft-q now) really did!

So again, I tip my hat to you full time miners in finally getting some much needed love from CCP. In my opinion, it's not really that much but it's certainly well deserved attention. And gankers, before you kill that miner, which I'm sure you'll do even after the changes, be sure to thank that miner for supplying the materials to build that very same ship your about to kill him with.

The entire point is that miners haven't done anything to earn this buff. As I said earlier an appropriate buff would be purely to the fitting stats of the ships, not their EHP. Buffing the fitting stats would allow them to fit a respectable tank without too much sacrifice to yield, but no, we can't even help miners help themselves, we have to do everything for them!


Do you actually have to do something to earn a buff
following your logic nullsec doesn'(t deserve moongoo , only thing they seem to do out there was ratting bots mining with guns ( thank god thats almost over) , exploiting wardec mechanics and other mechanics , crashing the server and whine whine whine about highsec

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#983 - 2012-07-27 05:10:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
pussnheels wrote:


you not ganking retrievers and bantams because you know you NOT going to hurt the other player or that the victim is a new player and you might get accused of harrassing new players
Your opinion about ganking has nothing to do about profit , only hurting people and if you can hurt them in their RL pockets aswell even better ,
Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with ganking nor do i or most of the players do not want a risk highsec , but people like you are getting me pissed off IT IS NOT YOUR BLOODY GAME , game belongs to CCP and when CCP decides to change something you don't like well deal with it get over it , there has been several changes in the past i didn't like , but i am still here
deal with it and stop crying



Of course, its not worth ganking them because it doesn't inflict any damage on the target. Between cheap hulls and Platinum insurance, you just aren't accomplishing much. I value my time more than that.

Incidentally, its the same reason I don't bother with low sec.
Take a hypothetical EVE opponent, "Johnny Jackass".

If I go to lowsec and pop his insured T1-Rupture at Old Man Star, I set him back a few million and he doesn't mind at all. Even if I pod him (and take the large sec hit) his pod is likely a combat clone. Win or lose, its a waste of time. Its like playing poker for toothpicks or M&M's.

If I gank his Hulk in highsec, with a -10 suicide alt - it interferes with his main source income and sets him back hundreds of millions. As Johnny didn't expect to lose his pod in 'safe' space - he's likely loaded with expensive implants. A skilled attack could easily set him back 1 Billion ISK or more. Inflicting that kind of damage is NOT a waste of time my time.

Understand now? I measure my success in how much damage and pain I inflict on other players. Newsflash - so does everybody else. I just don't limit myself to small-fry.
Suqq Madiq
#984 - 2012-07-27 05:12:45 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The entire point is that miners haven't done anything to earn this buff. As I said earlier an appropriate buff would be purely to the fitting stats of the ships, not their EHP. Buffing the fitting stats would allow them to fit a respectable tank without too much sacrifice to yield, but no, we can't even help miners help themselves, we have to do everything for them!


Your regurgitated rhetoric is terribly played out. As players we don't have the opportunity or ability to "earn buffs". They're given or taken away based on perceived imbalances in the mechanics of the game. CCP decided, and the vast majority of the forum posting populace agrees, that Barges and Exhumers needed to be rebalanced as their current incarnation just plain sucks. Whatever argument you have against this re-balance is, frankly, irrelevant as it's going to happen anyway as you and others in opposition have failed to provide meaningful evidence or sound reasoning to convince CCP to scrap their plans.
Daemon Ceed
Ice Fire Warriors
#985 - 2012-07-27 05:14:55 UTC
As a ganker, I'll give my reasons:

1.) It's HILARIOUS!
2.) Profit

Does there need to be any other reason? Miners are like giant space pinatas.
Pipa Porto
#986 - 2012-07-27 05:15:07 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
it is effortless once you own the system only thing you need to do is set up a pos start the proces after that it is only a question of refueling and empty the storage bins so don't give me that crap that moongoo is hard work and involves hours upon hours of boring yourself to death watching the lights on your pos
well i am pretty pissed off at any of your nullsec wankers , death sick of your comments how people should play your game all the while you cry and whine about anything that has the remote chance of pulling down your own little carebear sandcastle


you should ask Pandemic Legion about owning systems that they run moon mining towers in


Last time I mentioned that PL didn't hold Sov, I was wrong because they had accidentally Sov.

This time I'm checking Dotlan first.

PL, which is one of the largest Tech holders in the game currently holds exactly 0 Sov.

The hard work of Moon Goo is fighting to keep it.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#987 - 2012-07-27 05:16:35 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Wow what an over statement.


let's see

crimewatch, which will prevent you from ganking a freighter or an officer-fit faction battleship because otherwise looting it means that anyone can shoot you and bring all the neutral RR they want and you can't shoot at their RR

this unnecessary change catering to afk miners who feel entitled to profit while only alt-tabbing from their movie to move ore to their orcas

yeah, welcome to a risk-free hisec. a new game enhancement - err, experience!


i am going to ask again because i didn't got a answer yet
WHY AREN'T PEOPLE ALLOWED TO AFK MINE IF THEY WANT? You goons and other nullsec idiots have your AFK moongoo , so that shouldn't be allowed if you continue with your logic

You don't understand moon mining at all if you think it's effortless income.

it is effortless once you own the system only thing you need to do is set up a pos start the proces after that it is only a question of refueling and empty the storage bins so don't give me that crap that moongoo is hard work and involves hours upon hours of boring yourself to death watching the lights on your pos
well i am pretty pissed off at any of your nullsec wankers , death sick of your comments how people should play your game all the while you cry and whine about anything that has the remote chance of pulling down your own little carebear sandcastle

You're absolutely right. These towers are invulnerable and never come under attack, and so never need defending with fleets of sometimes more than a hundred players.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#988 - 2012-07-27 05:19:29 UTC
well, you were able to make towers invulnerable in the past

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#989 - 2012-07-27 05:20:36 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
The hard work of Moon Goo is fighting to keep it.


Not really. Few thousand supercaps / moon should do the trick.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#990 - 2012-07-27 05:21:34 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Not really. Few thousand supercaps / moon should do the trick.


yeah the NC had a ton of supercaps and controlled nearly all of the tech and nobody has been able to challenge them so far

that's why Morsus Mihi, Majesta Empire, Stella Polaris and them still own all of the north

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#991 - 2012-07-27 05:23:04 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
the problem is that in the past, hulkageddons generally involved "more expensive" ships like brutixes, discophoons, torp ravens, armageddons and domis, which were insured so the ganker would only really bear a 10-20m loss

then the nth nerf to all risk in hisec took away insurance for concord kills (since publords need to be safe while botting or being AFK) and people started using the newly buffed destroyers and tier 3 battlecruisers

and now, the n+1st nerf to all risk in hisec is vastly increasing the hitpoints on all barges

and soon, the n+2nd nerf to all risk in hisec will ensure that no freighter is worth ganking because looting it will allow everyone in the game, most of whom had no stake in either the defense or attack on that freighter, to shoot you

and the n+3rd nerf will probably equalize concord response times throughout all of hisec, so a 1.0 rookie system is no safer than a 0.5


Insurance fraud was taken away not because of hi sec kills but because, like boomerang, it started being used in an heavily mass, industrialized way. You can find on MD the guy (Cosmoray) who made 100B+ by manufacturing thousands of battleships and exploding them.

He started a trend, with a NPC endless ISK faucet, he posted about it and how to do it and then nobody would stop what was basically legal ISK duping. CCP intervened and removed it.

Same for boomerang, for years it was used with a brain and not spammed on the forums and CCP let it go. Then a very intelligent guy started talking about it on GD and made tutorials so droves of emulators started doing it. CCP intervened and removed it.

Same for orca ships "saving". Once again, tolerated for a long time till somebody "smart" decided to make it very public and spammable by every ganker. CCP intervened and removed it.


Don't blame hi seccer targets for the grave hi seccer gankers dug by themselves.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#992 - 2012-07-27 05:23:06 UTC
Didn't think I'd ever agree on this matter with the OP, but this change ist bad. Reasons have been mentioned in this thread.

All it would have taken was a powergrid buff to the hulk, fix the training time issues for covetor and exhumers, remove the procurer from the game and have the mining frigate take it's place.

These changes are stupid indeed.

Remove standings and insurance.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#993 - 2012-07-27 05:24:33 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Wow what an over statement.


let's see

crimewatch, which will prevent you from ganking a freighter or an officer-fit faction battleship because otherwise looting it means that anyone can shoot you and bring all the neutral RR they want and you can't shoot at their RR

this unnecessary change catering to afk miners who feel entitled to profit while only alt-tabbing from their movie to move ore to their orcas

yeah, welcome to a risk-free hisec. a new game enhancement - err, experience!


Yes EvE actions will have consequences. How bad, eh?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#994 - 2012-07-27 05:26:24 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Insurance fraud was taken away not because of hi sec kills but because, like boomerang, it started being used in an heavily mass, industrialized way. You can find on MD the guy (Cosmoray) who made 100B+ by manufacturing thousands of battleships and exploding them.

He started a trend, with a NPC endless ISK faucet, he posted about it and how to do it and then nobody would stop what was basically legal ISK duping. CCP intervened and removed it.

Same for boomerang, for years it was used with a brain and not spammed on the forums and CCP let it go. Then a very intelligent guy started talking about it on GD and made tutorials so droves of emulators started doing it. CCP intervened and removed it.

Same for orca ships "saving". Once again, tolerated for a long time till somebody "smart" decided to make it very public and spammable by every ganker. CCP intervened and removed it.


Don't blame hi seccer targets for the grave hi seccer gankers dug by themselves.


i'm not talking about insurance fraud, which allowed empty ships to be self-destructed at a profit

boomeranging was broken and anybody who disagrees is kinda silly considering that it literally allowed you to suicide gank a freighter with one tornado

orca ship saving is also stupid

i'm not talking about things that are literally borderline exploits, i'm talking about the consistent goalpost moving which is gradually removing all risk from hisec

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#995 - 2012-07-27 05:26:59 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Poor choice of words. The ganker is not supposed to be able to profit from killing miners when fitted for their role.
They are not war ships never intended to be war ships. But after this change I can see them getting used for some war ship type roles. Again unintended for EVE but then that never stopped most of the posters in this thread.


for one, there's no way of enforcing a "minimum" cost to gank something because if it requires the DPS of, say, a vindicator, you can do it with 6 catalysts which come at a fraction of the cost

however, I do agree that you shouldn't be able to profitably gank, say, a t2 fit exhumer considering that you can't really profitably gank a t2 fit mission boat, but if you're looking at a mackinaw with, say, aoede MLUs and ore strip miners, then there is no way that you shouldn't be able to gank it for a profit because it's blatantly a loot pinata

exhumer ganking wasn't profitable before this, however, because we had to pay out rewards to get dudes to gank exhumers

just like a faction/deadspace fit tengu, just like an officer-fit nightmare coming through a gate


Ore items are hundreds of millions, don't tell me that bringing 1 more catalyst to kill the Hulk pinata will break your neck.
Or don't tell me that killing a Mack will be impossible. You'll have to use say some Tornados whose cost will still not be "hundreds of millions".

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#996 - 2012-07-27 05:27:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Richard Desturned wrote:
yeah the NC had a ton of supercaps and controlled nearly all of the tech and nobody has been able to challenge them so far

that's why Morsus Mihi, Majesta Empire, Stella Polaris and them still own all of the north


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZDME4zZdMQ

Ship with 10 mid slots? Shocked
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#997 - 2012-07-27 05:29:08 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Wow what an over statement.


let's see

crimewatch, which will prevent you from ganking a freighter or an officer-fit faction battleship because otherwise looting it means that anyone can shoot you and bring all the neutral RR they want and you can't shoot at their RR

this unnecessary change catering to afk miners who feel entitled to profit while only alt-tabbing from their movie to move ore to their orcas

yeah, welcome to a risk-free hisec. a new game enhancement - err, experience!


Yes EvE actions will have consequences. How bad, eh?


so you believe that you should be able to take part in a fight directly and not actually be vulnerable to intervention?

oh and the other aspect of it was that you couldn't shoot back at somebody who is shooting you, lest you be concorded

at least everyone sensible on these forums (and at fanfest) told CCP why that is a goddamn stupid idea

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Travis117
Valkyrie Consortium
No Visual.
#998 - 2012-07-27 05:29:09 UTC
Waaa waaaaa were going to have a harder time ganking like the l33t pvpers waaaaaaa. Wanna kill people? Go to lowsec or nullsec
Gun Gal
Dark Club
#999 - 2012-07-27 05:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Gun Gal
I love your tears, keep em coming.


Ohh ya Huck the f%&k up
Lern 2 play
adapt or leave

Lol everything you gankers threw at industrialists is coming full circle.

Guess you now know where the power lies, and its not with you.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1000 - 2012-07-27 05:30:09 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The entire point is that miners haven't done anything to earn this buff. As I said earlier an appropriate buff would be purely to the fitting stats of the ships, not their EHP. Buffing the fitting stats would allow them to fit a respectable tank without too much sacrifice to yield, but no, we can't even help miners help themselves, we have to do everything for them!


Your regurgitated rhetoric is terribly played out. As players we don't have the opportunity or ability to "earn buffs". They're given or taken away based on perceived imbalances in the mechanics of the game. CCP decided, and the vast majority of the forum posting populace agrees, that Barges and Exhumers needed to be rebalanced as their current incarnation just plain sucks. Whatever argument you have against this re-balance is, frankly, irrelevant as it's going to happen anyway as you and others in opposition have failed to provide meaningful evidence or sound reasoning to convince CCP to scrap their plans.

The "earn buff" part was worded poorly, I admit, but the main point is the same. CCP could have easily addressed this imbalance without coddling miners the ways this current change does.

It doesn't matter what CCP thinks or what the majority (which I doubt) of the forum population believe. This is a bad change and it stands on the objective fact that it essentially nerfs intelligent gameplay (read: tanking your miner) and rewards lazy, stupid gameplay (going AFK with a max-yield mining barge fitting absolutely no tank).

Enjoying the rain today? ;)