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Barge Fairy Tale

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Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#3321 - 2012-09-05 19:09:50 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Right now the Mack can be tanked with 2MLUs to be nearly impossible to break even with a suicide (I think a few thousand newb ships can do it cheap enough).

So, unless the ganker is just doing it for the sake of ganking, a Mack is as safe as a Skiff, but gets better yield and cargo.

If the ganker is doing it for fun, the Skiff is no safer than any other ship. The only thing that might make the Skiff any safer is that it cost less and so may not generate the tears the ganker is looking for. Other than that, it is just as likely to be ganked for fun as a Mack.

Now, the Skiff may survive that for fun gank better, but that only tends to lead to more of them showing up.


- Risk vs. reward
- 1-2-3

Mack gets worst tank. Ok, that means it should have best yield. Now we get to important part. What it needs so that 1-2-3 would happen? Yes, ore bay from Skiff. Do you know where that would lead to? It's bloody obvious: one ship to rule them all.

I personally think it should have the same tank and tankability (approximately) as a Hulk.

Hulk purely for yield with a cargo forcing it to be fleet based (like it is now).
Mack for cargo with decent yield for more solo players (like it is now minus a little tank).
Skiff for those who didn't bother tanking their ships before and want to be "safe".
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3322 - 2012-09-05 19:11:06 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:

I personally think it should have the same tank and tankability (approximately) as a Hulk.



I agree.
Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3323 - 2012-09-05 19:15:46 UTC
If this has been brought up and discussed, then I apologize.

Since CCP granted the Covetor and Hulk with the best yield but poor space due to being fleet ships, why not grant a bonus to the Orca's and Rorqual's ore hold based upon the Industrial Command Ships and Capital Industrial Ships skills respectively?

Of course, I will mention that I do fly an Orca so I am a tad biased. Smile
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#3324 - 2012-09-05 19:20:26 UTC
Mukuro Gravedigger wrote:
If this has been brought up and discussed, then I apologize.

Since CCP granted the Covetor and Hulk with the best yield but poor space due to being fleet ships, why not grant a bonus to the Orca's and Rorqual's ore hold based upon the Industrial Command Ships and Capital Industrial Ships skills respectively?

Of course, I will mention that I do fly an Orca so I am a tad biased. Smile

No one has touched that, since we have been going in circles about the mining ships themselves.

I don't actually have an opinion either way on that, since my corp uses new folks for dedicated hauling when we do large mining ops.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3325 - 2012-09-05 19:21:38 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
I personally think it should have the same tank and tankability (approximately) as a Hulk.


1-2-3?
You want everyone to fly one ship and one ship only.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#3326 - 2012-09-05 19:29:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Corina Jarr
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
I personally think it should have the same tank and tankability (approximately) as a Hulk.


1-2-3?
You want everyone to fly one ship and one ship only.

Can you read?

Hulk: flown by large ops (as it is now in small numbers; the Mack is still favored due to its larger tank).
Mack: flown for solo or small groups (unlike now, where it is used for both small and large groups because of its better tank over tthe hulk).
Skiff: flown to avoid profit based ganks (close to now, except no reason to not use a Mack as it can avoid those same ganks).


All three woudl be flown, depending on what you are doing/how worried you are.

Right now, the only reason people fly Skiffs is because they think they are safer (but they aren't) than in a tanked Mack.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3327 - 2012-09-05 19:51:56 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Hulk: flown by large ops (as it is now in small numbers; the Mack is still favored due to its larger tank).
Mack: flown for solo or small groups (unlike now, where it is used for both small and large groups because of its better tank over tthe hulk).
Skiff: flown to avoid profit based ganks (close to now, except no reason to not use a Mack as it can avoid those same ganks).


All three woudl be flown, depending on what you are doing/how worried you are.

Right now, the only reason people fly Skiffs is because they think they are safer (but they aren't) than in a tanked Mack.


Mack with worst tank would need support. Not for solo mining anymore.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3328 - 2012-09-05 19:54:10 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Mack with worst tank would need support. Not for solo mining anymore.


No it would simply require you to fit something other than only MLU.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3329 - 2012-09-05 19:55:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Mack with worst tank would need support. Not for solo mining anymore.


No it would simply require you to fit something other than only MLU.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1882439#post1882439
Valari Nala Zena
Perkone
Caldari State
#3330 - 2012-09-05 19:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Valari Nala Zena
TL;DR
I really can't fathom why people would chose tank over yield.
In all my years of mining, i would missed out on several billions of profit choosing tank over yield.
That is even calculating the amount of times i got suicide ganked successfully.
/TL;DR

I mine because it's profitable, and currently can afk a lot/do something else on my computer.
3 macks and an orca.

Because of the big hold, i can tolerate the mining (laptop + synergy).
Every 25 minutes i have to drag and drop cubes to the orca, every 50 minutes i have to offload a full orca.

The ore hold of the hulk is to small, and the yield of the mack is very close to the yield of a hulk, so my choice is made.
Ore hold > yield > tank = mackinaw.

In 5 years of mining, i've been suicide ganked 3 times, lost 1 mackinaw each time.
There has been a couple more attempts but only failed ones.

In the end, even with 3 lost macks, it was worth it because i'm mining at a faster rate for years.
These 3 lost macks mean nothing, compared to the billions i would have lost choosing tank instead of more yield.
Pipa Porto
#3331 - 2012-09-05 22:05:06 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Pure mathematics? Yield...

Skiff +200% strip miner yield on one module
Mack +50% strip miner yield on two modules


You don't quite know how math works, do you?

Skiff has 1 Module yielding (100%+200%=) 300% of the yield of 1 unbonused module.
Mackinaw has 2 Modules yielding (100%+50%+100%+50%=) 300% of the yield of 1 unbonused module.

(The Mackinaw also has a third low slot allowing it a DC2 or an extra MLUII)

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#3332 - 2012-09-05 22:09:26 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Hulk: flown by large ops (as it is now in small numbers; the Mack is still favored due to its larger tank).
Mack: flown for solo or small groups (unlike now, where it is used for both small and large groups because of its better tank over tthe hulk).
Skiff: flown to avoid profit based ganks (close to now, except no reason to not use a Mack as it can avoid those same ganks).


All three woudl be flown, depending on what you are doing/how worried you are.

Right now, the only reason people fly Skiffs is because they think they are safer (but they aren't) than in a tanked Mack.


Mack with worst tank would need support. Not for solo mining anymore.


You forgot a word there. AFK. The Mack would no longer work well for Solo, AFK mining.

If you're actually playing the game, you can easily keep yourself from getting ganked without any need for a tank.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3333 - 2012-09-05 22:41:03 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Right now the Mack can be tanked with 2MLUs to be nearly impossible to break even with a suicide (I think a few thousand newb ships can do it cheap enough).

So, unless the ganker is just doing it for the sake of ganking, a Mack is as safe as a Skiff, but gets better yield and cargo.

If the ganker is doing it for fun, the Skiff is no safer than any other ship. The only thing that might make the Skiff any safer is that it cost less and so may not generate the tears the ganker is looking for. Other than that, it is just as likely to be ganked for fun as a Mack.

Now, the Skiff may survive that for fun gank better, but that only tends to lead to more of them showing up.


- Risk vs. reward
- 1-2-3

Mack gets worst tank. Ok, that means it should have best yield. Now we get to important part. What it needs so that 1-2-3 would happen? Yes, ore bay from Skiff. Do you know where that would lead to? It's bloody obvious: one ship to rule them all.


No, if the Mack has the worst tank, it doesn't need the 'best yield' because it already has, by far, the biggest cargo bay.
Cargo, not yield is the most desired characteristic for Exhumers, based on how miners used to fit them.
See? Easy.
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#3334 - 2012-09-06 01:03:11 UTC
Buck Futz wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Right now the Mack can be tanked with 2MLUs to be nearly impossible to break even with a suicide (I think a few thousand newb ships can do it cheap enough).

So, unless the ganker is just doing it for the sake of ganking, a Mack is as safe as a Skiff, but gets better yield and cargo.

If the ganker is doing it for fun, the Skiff is no safer than any other ship. The only thing that might make the Skiff any safer is that it cost less and so may not generate the tears the ganker is looking for. Other than that, it is just as likely to be ganked for fun as a Mack.

Now, the Skiff may survive that for fun gank better, but that only tends to lead to more of them showing up.


- Risk vs. reward
- 1-2-3

Mack gets worst tank. Ok, that means it should have best yield. Now we get to important part. What it needs so that 1-2-3 would happen? Yes, ore bay from Skiff. Do you know where that would lead to? It's bloody obvious: one ship to rule them all.


No, if the Mack has the worst tank, it doesn't need the 'best yield' because it already has, by far, the biggest cargo bay.
Cargo, not yield is the most desired characteristic for Exhumers, based on how miners used to fit them.
See? Easy.




So nerf our yield but leave the hit points alone.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3335 - 2012-09-06 03:10:19 UTC
Valari Nala Zena wrote:
In 5 years of mining, i've been suicide ganked 3 times, lost 1 mackinaw each time.
There has been a couple more attempts but only failed ones.

In the end, even with 3 lost macks, it was worth it because i'm mining at a faster rate for years.
These 3 lost macks mean nothing, compared to the billions i would have lost choosing tank instead of more yield.

And the secret comes out. A bunch of miners just don't give a damn when they get ganked. If they get ganked.

Not bad though, less than one a year on average...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3336 - 2012-09-06 04:19:48 UTC
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:


So nerf our yield but leave the hit points alone.



Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Obviously. Turn on your brain for a second.

Why? With your half baked solution (AKA; take anything but AFK mode+EHP!!!)
.....lower the Mack's yield and you end up with this:

Yield: Hulk>Skiff>Mack
Cargo: Mack>Skiff>Hulk
EHP: Skiff>Mack>Hulk

Hulk at 1-3-3.
Mack is 1-2-3
and Skiff is 1-2-2.

Hulk remains the worst in 2 of the 3 categories.

The simplest way to do it is swap the EHP of the Hulk with the Mackinaw.
Then each Exhumer is.... best in one category, 2nd in another, and worst in the last.

Besides, its elegant: the 'easymode' temptation to AFK mine is balanced with higher vulnerability to ganking.

Still, I'll give you credit, Yokai: Its clear you've accepted our premise that the Exhumers are badly balanced and need a revision.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3337 - 2012-09-06 04:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Posting in 1... 2... 3...

Anyway yes, as it is now:

Yield: Hulk>Mack>Skiff
Cargo: Mack>Skiff>Hulk
EHP: Skiff>Mack>Hulk

Mack is 1-2-2 (broken), Skiff is 1-2-3 (as it should) and Hulk is 1-3-3 (broken). Switching ehp of Hulk and Mack is the obvious solution. Then you get Mack 1-2-3, Hulk 1-2-3, and Skiff 1-2-3

Yield: Hulk>Mack>Skiff
Cargo: Mack>Skiff>Hulk
EHP: Skiff>Hulk>Mack

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Herr Hammer Draken
#3338 - 2012-09-06 04:31:35 UTC
Buck Futz wrote:
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:


So nerf our yield but leave the hit points alone.



Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Obviously. Turn on your brain for a second.

Why? With your half baked solution (AKA; take anything but AFK mode+EHP!!!)
.....lower the Mack's yield and you end up with this:

Yield: Hulk>Skiff>Mack
Cargo: Mack>Skiff>Hulk
EHP: Skiff>Mack>Hulk

Hulk at 1-3-3.
Mack is 1-2-3
and Skiff is 1-2-2.

Hulk remains the worst in 2 of the 3 categories.

The simplest way to do it is swap the EHP of the Hulk with the Mackinaw.
Then each Exhumer is.... best in one category, 2nd in another, and worst in the last.

Besides, its elegant: the 'easymode' temptation to AFK mine is balanced with higher vulnerability to ganking.

Still, I'll give you credit, Yokai: Its clear you've accepted our premise that the Exhumers are badly balanced and need a revision.







My recent experience was not at all favorable toward this plan.

In the systems I normally mine in there have been lots of retrievers mining but they mostly just take what they need and leave.
The belts always have the ore in them I need or I can find a belt in system that has what I need when I need it.
But recent events a big mining corp moved in with mutiple Orca's and lots of Hulks. They strip mine every belt in system then move on to the next system and then the next. In 5 hours or so they clean out 4 + systems around me of every thing.

These are not retrievers or Macks doing this. They are fleets of Hulks and Orca's. So if ever I wanted to gank a miner those Hulks have my vote as they are like a locust. By all means leave the Hulk as the easiest miner to gank.

I admit I am looking at this from my perspective. But then so is everybody that posts. If they say different they are lying.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3339 - 2012-09-06 04:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
I think we should be at least encouraging people to play with others, so the solo miner (Mack) should be the easiest one to gank, unless of course that person deliberately sacrifices quite a bit of yield in exchange for a good tank (Skiff).

Of course that doesn't preclude the multiboxers with their Hulk/Orca fleets, but at the point where you can afford to field such fleets yourself an occasional Hulk loss doesn't hurt all that much.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3340 - 2012-09-06 04:37:56 UTC
And let nullbears print ISK while logged off...