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Barge Fairy Tale

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Belshazzar Babylon
Doomheim
#3281 - 2012-09-04 20:15:12 UTC
Buck Futz wrote:
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:



Now you're just being silly. They are still suicide gankable. They don't have an infinite amount of HP you just have to bring friends and spend more. You will still lose your ship to concord. You say bring friends, but friends can't do anything against alpha. Now the gankers have to bring friends.


No, we just bring a cruiser instead of a destroyer. What stops us from doing so is that you cannot make a profit.



Okay then move onto another way of making ISK then and stop whining about it. Gank freighters, gank blingy Tengus at Dodixie. No one really cares about how you make your iskies.


The point isn't whether or not it is profitable. I think plenty of gankers are willing to gank at a moderate loss. Breakeven point was killing 2 Mackinaws per Tornado. Anything over 3 was profit, 5-6 per Tornado was fantastic profit, but those days are long gone.

When CCP sets the game conditions to the point where gankers are spending 200M ISK to kill a a 280M ISK Exhumer that drops maybe 20M in loot/salvage, people just stop ganking.

If you force people to exclusively run in 5 man gangs just to kill Exhumers, people stop doing it.

And when ganking stops - only realistic threat to highsec miners in EVE disappears completely.

And I'm sure there are a lot of farmers out there who are good with that.
But these people - the Mack could have been given the best yield, the best cargo AND the best EHP, and they'd STILL defend it.

The Mackinaw clearly is unbalanced. Hell, even miners (the slowest of the slow learners) have picked on that surprisingly quickly and voted with their ISK.




Really at this point all I'm reading is crying.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3282 - 2012-09-04 20:18:05 UTC
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:


Really at this point all I'm reading is crying.


Then you are truly clueless.
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3283 - 2012-09-04 20:20:40 UTC
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:
Buck Futz wrote:


Hey, Mackinaws are OP and unbalanced and here's why!



I'm perfectly OK with an unbalanced Mackinaw because I'm an idiot who got ganked once and am still mad.


I think that about sums it up.
Belshazzar Babylon
Doomheim
#3284 - 2012-09-04 20:28:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:


Really at this point all I'm reading is crying.


Then you are truly clueless.


I'm not clueless I just recognize crying when I read it. Y'all think you're entitled to easy profitable targets and now you have to work harder and your profits are marginalised. Things change. Go buy the board game. The rules and stats will never change.

War dec mining corps, bump em if they are in NPC Corps like James does of you want to mess with bots. Or just change careers.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3285 - 2012-09-04 20:28:34 UTC
Could someone show me where they said suicide ganking mining ships should be profitable.
Belshazzar Babylon
Doomheim
#3286 - 2012-09-04 20:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Belshazzar Babylon
Buck Futz wrote:
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:
Buck Futz wrote:


Hey, Mackinaws are OP and unbalanced and here's why!



I'm perfectly OK with an unbalanced Mackinaw because I'm an idiot who got ganked once and am still mad.


I think that about sums it up.



That's me I'm mad you can just hear in my post.
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3287 - 2012-09-04 20:37:11 UTC
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:
Buck Futz wrote:
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:
Buck Futz wrote:


Hey, Mackinaws are OP and unbalanced and here's why!



I'm perfectly OK with an unbalanced Mackinaw because I'm an idiot who got ganked once and am still mad.


I think that about sums it up.



That's me I'm mad you can just hear in my post.


Its your avatar. I can't put my finger on it, but for some reason you look angry.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3288 - 2012-09-04 20:46:44 UTC
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:


I'm not clueless I just recognize crying when I read it. Y'all think you're entitled to easy profitable targets and now you have to work harder and your profits are marginalised. Things change. Go buy the board game. The rules and stats will never change.

War dec mining corps, bump em if they are in NPC Corps like James does of you want to mess with bots. Or just change careers.


No you don't recognize crying when you see it, as you just demonstrated when you responed to Buck's post without reading it.

We also dont have to work harder to kill miners and wardecs are still as broken as ever and useless for targeting miners.

The mack is still doing the skiffs job which is the main argument here. The whole point of the skiff is to stop gankers but whats the point of the skiff if the mack does that job too as well as having the best hold and a yeild not too far from a hulk?

If we just wanted easy kills why in the name of Odin would we want a ship like the skiff at all?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3289 - 2012-09-04 20:59:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The mack is still doing the skiffs job which is the main argument here. The whole point of the skiff is to stop gankers but whats the point of the skiff if the mack does that job too as well as having the best hold and a yeild not too far from a hulk?


Why it's only Mack? Max tanked Hulk has 38k EHP. That's only 6,4k EHP less than lol-triple-tanked Mack.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3290 - 2012-09-04 21:02:18 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The mack is still doing the skiffs job which is the main argument here. The whole point of the skiff is to stop gankers but whats the point of the skiff if the mack does that job too as well as having the best hold and a yeild not too far from a hulk?


Why it's only Mack? Max tanked Hulk has 38k EHP. That's only 6,4k EHP less than lol-triple-tanked Mack.


Its the base tank we are talking about.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3291 - 2012-09-04 21:09:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Its the base tank we are talking about.


Skiff: 32,6k
Mack: 14,5k
Hulk: 11,1k

Mack is still closer to Hulk than Skiff.

Hulk has ~24% less EHP than Mack.
Mack has ~56% less EHP than Skiff.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3292 - 2012-09-04 21:16:43 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its the base tank we are talking about.


Skiff: 32,6k
Mack: 14,5k
Hulk: 11,1k

Mack is still closer to Hulk than Skiff.

Hulk has ~24% less EHP than Mack.
Mack has ~56% less EHP than Skiff.


And that 24% makes all the difference.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3293 - 2012-09-04 21:20:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its the base tank we are talking about.


Skiff: 32,6k
Mack: 14,5k
Hulk: 11,1k

Mack is still closer to Hulk than Skiff.

Hulk has ~24% less EHP than Mack.
Mack has ~56% less EHP than Skiff.


And that 24% makes all the difference.


Ship with best yield has best tank...
"Risk vs. reward"?
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3294 - 2012-09-04 22:27:52 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its the base tank we are talking about.


Skiff: 32,6k
Mack: 14,5k
Hulk: 11,1k

Mack is still closer to Hulk than Skiff.

Hulk has ~24% less EHP than Mack.
Mack has ~56% less EHP than Skiff.


And that 24% makes all the difference.


Ship with best yield has best tank...
"Risk vs. reward"?


You left out cargo space.

Seeing as how the vast majority of Exhumers before August 8 were fit for cargo, its obviously the most valued statistic.

Hulk should have the best yield, worst cargo and in the middle on EHP.
Mack should have the best cargo, middle yield and worst EHP.
Skiff should have the best EHP, middle cargo and worst yield.

Since the Olympics just ended, lets use a Medal Chart!

The Hulk won a Gold medal and two Bronzes. (And even then, just barely edged out the competition.)
Skiff gets a Gold, Silver and Bronze. (Except the Gold medal was in archery. WTF cares about archery?)
The Mackinaw? A Gold and two Silvers. (And the Gold medal was in a kickass, money event like the Decathalon)

Its pretty easy to see why the Hulk and Skiff are falling by the wayside.
Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
#3295 - 2012-09-05 01:03:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
This ladies and gentlemen is what happens when a scrub takes an EVE meme and spams it all over the place without understanding it.


Pffft. So easy to troll. And too angry to see straight. Someone had better invent an IQ pill, soon.

Do not run. We are your friends.
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#3296 - 2012-09-05 01:10:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:


I'm not clueless I just recognize crying when I read it. Y'all think you're entitled to easy profitable targets and now you have to work harder and your profits are marginalised. Things change. Go buy the board game. The rules and stats will never change.

War dec mining corps, bump em if they are in NPC Corps like James does of you want to mess with bots. Or just change careers.


No you don't recognize crying when you see it, as you just demonstrated when you responed to Buck's post without reading it.

We also dont have to work harder to kill miners and wardecs are still as broken as ever and useless for targeting miners.

The mack is still doing the skiffs job which is the main argument here. The whole point of the skiff is to stop gankers but whats the point of the skiff if the mack does that job too as well as having the best hold and a yeild not too far from a hulk?

If we just wanted easy kills why in the name of Odin would we want a ship like the skiff at all?



If we were all flying Skiffs, you'd just complain about getting that one nerfed though. You wont be happy with anything us miners do.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#3297 - 2012-09-05 01:43:01 UTC
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:


I'm not clueless I just recognize crying when I read it. Y'all think you're entitled to easy profitable targets and now you have to work harder and your profits are marginalised. Things change. Go buy the board game. The rules and stats will never change.

War dec mining corps, bump em if they are in NPC Corps like James does of you want to mess with bots. Or just change careers.


No you don't recognize crying when you see it, as you just demonstrated when you responed to Buck's post without reading it.

We also dont have to work harder to kill miners and wardecs are still as broken as ever and useless for targeting miners.

The mack is still doing the skiffs job which is the main argument here. The whole point of the skiff is to stop gankers but whats the point of the skiff if the mack does that job too as well as having the best hold and a yeild not too far from a hulk?

If we just wanted easy kills why in the name of Odin would we want a ship like the skiff at all?



If we were all flying Skiffs, you'd just complain about getting that one nerfed though. You wont be happy with anything us miners do.

No, we would chuckle and probably mention something about risk averse carebears.


The Skiff is (IMO) fine as is with relation to the Hulk.

However, because the Mack can get a great yield and still tank enough to dissuade a price based gank, there is no reason (other than paranoia and PvP) to fly a Skiff.
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#3298 - 2012-09-05 02:52:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Yokai Mitsuhide
Corina Jarr wrote:
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:


I'm not clueless I just recognize crying when I read it. Y'all think you're entitled to easy profitable targets and now you have to work harder and your profits are marginalised. Things change. Go buy the board game. The rules and stats will never change.

War dec mining corps, bump em if they are in NPC Corps like James does of you want to mess with bots. Or just change careers.


No you don't recognize crying when you see it, as you just demonstrated when you responed to Buck's post without reading it.

We also dont have to work harder to kill miners and wardecs are still as broken as ever and useless for targeting miners.

The mack is still doing the skiffs job which is the main argument here. The whole point of the skiff is to stop gankers but whats the point of the skiff if the mack does that job too as well as having the best hold and a yeild not too far from a hulk?

If we just wanted easy kills why in the name of Odin would we want a ship like the skiff at all?



If we were all flying Skiffs, you'd just complain about getting that one nerfed though. You wont be happy with anything us miners do.

No, we would chuckle and probably mention something about risk averse carebears.


The Skiff is (IMO) fine as is with relation to the Hulk.

However, because the Mack can get a great yield and still tank enough to dissuade a price based gank, there is no reason (other than paranoia and PvP) to fly a Skiff.


So because cheap destroyers can't gank Mackinaws is still the only argument any of you griefer/gankers can offer. The issue isn't the Mackinaw...it's you who expect to be able to gank expensive mining ships for little to no cost. It's an exhumer, top of the line mining ship...it SHOULD require more then a couple of destroyers to gank one in high sec. Or should we expect to be able to gank an orca with 3 or 4 destroyers in high sec? Or maybe Battleships? Command ships? Why stop at just the Mackinaw, lets just nerf all high hit point ships so they are easier to suicide gank.

I dont understand why you guys can't wrap your heads around

Hulk - Best Yield, Lowest EHP, Lowest ORE hold
Mackinaw - Medium Yield, Medium EHP, Largest Ore hold
Skiff - Lowest Yield, Largest EHP, Medium ORE Hold
all I see here is a nice balance between ships.

They all have their own pros and cons. But because most miners are using the Mackinaw and it can't be ganked by 2 guys in destroyers... OMG GAME ISNT FAIR ANYMORE!
Nothing here needs to be adjusted aside from your attitudes towards the new ship stats.

The only ONLY thing that is an issue are bots are harder to kill, bots are always going to be a problem though and nerfing a ship line because bots happen to use it to is not fair to actual players.
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3299 - 2012-09-05 03:37:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Buck Futz
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:

I dont understand why you guys can't wrap your heads around

Hulk - Best Yield, Lowest EHP, Lowest ORE hold
Mackinaw - Medium Yield, Medium EHP, Largest Ore hold
Skiff - Lowest Yield, Largest EHP, Medium ORE Hold
all I see here is a nice balance between ships.


No, it shows a lack of balance. Why can't you wrap your head around that?
Hulk is 1-3-3. (#1 in Yield, the 2nd most preferred capability)
Mack is 1-2-2. (#1 in Cargo, most preferred capability)
Skiff is 1-2-3. (#1 In EHP, the least important capability)

Not only is the Mack BEST at what miners want MOST - it is a strong second in the other two categories. Hulk and Skiff are left in the dust. On top of that, the Mack has a cheaper base build cost - high demand is pushing prices ever higher, though.

It doesn't get any more straightforward on paper - and if you can't figure that out, you are simply being willfully ignorant.

But don't ask me - ask the hundreds of miners who are selling off their Hulks and replacing them with Mackinaws - even for fleet operations. The market doesn't lie.


EDIT: Besides, what do you have your panties in such a twist for? Even if the Mackinaw was properly rebalanced to have the worst EHP of the 3 Exhumers, you could still tank it and be perfectly OK. You might need to pack a DC II instead of three MLU IIs, but you'd be just fine. Why do you care if other miners who are too dim to tank, are getting popped? It doesn't really affect you at all...Question
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3300 - 2012-09-05 04:41:52 UTC
Buck Futz wrote:
EDIT: Besides, what do you have your panties in such a twist for? Even if the Mackinaw was properly rebalanced to have the worst EHP of the 3 Exhumers, you could still tank it and be perfectly OK. You might need to pack a DC II instead of three MLU IIs, but you'd be just fine. Why do you care if other miners who are too dim to tank, are getting popped? It doesn't really affect you at all...Question

Just ask for the mack to get some more EHP buffs. I mean, it worked the last time.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?