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Barge Fairy Tale

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DrSmegma
Smegma United
#301 - 2012-07-26 12:23:43 UTC
The funniest part is that even after this change, we will still see QQ-postings on the forum of miners who got ganked and demand better protection from CCP.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#302 - 2012-07-26 12:28:54 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
[quote=Tyrton]You spend time repeating the same boring 3 points

So here we are with an exhumer that can field a 100k EHP tank yet still get 5/6th the yield of a Hulk. For the tank & capacity roles, I'd have expected 1/2 the yield of a Hulk (through a cycle bonus on strip miners and ice harvesters), and I'd have expected the Hulk to receive a slight decrease in EHP to compensate for its extremely high yield.


Nobody would use a ship yielding 1/2 of a peer tier other. Heck, nobody wanted to use a covetor which is way cheaper, 1 tier below yet it mines within 15% off an Hulk.

The scope of the "tiericide" instead is to make all the ship equally flown.

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Dave stark
#303 - 2012-07-26 12:30:53 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
[quote=Tyrton]You spend time repeating the same boring 3 points

So here we are with an exhumer that can field a 100k EHP tank yet still get 5/6th the yield of a Hulk. For the tank & capacity roles, I'd have expected 1/2 the yield of a Hulk (through a cycle bonus on strip miners and ice harvesters), and I'd have expected the Hulk to receive a slight decrease in EHP to compensate for its extremely high yield.


Nobody would use a ship yielding 1/2 of a peer tier other. Heck, nobody wanted to use a covetor which is way cheaper, 1 tier below yet it mines within 15% off an Hulk.

The scope of the "tiericide" instead is to make all the ship equally flown.


actually it's more than that, iirc you can only fit 2x mlu IIs on a covetor with an implant.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#304 - 2012-07-26 12:33:08 UTC
(disclaimer - i HOPE i got these figures wrong)

from my basic grasp on maths, here are the expected shield resists for an Exhumer 5 Hulk pilot, bearing in mind this is a NON COMBAT SHIP

EM - 51.56%
EXPL - 89.38%
THERM - 68.75%
KIN - 85.94%

Changes that make them nigh on invulnerable and all they can do it moan that theres not enough room in the cargohold for more mining crystals

CCP, please stop pandering to these people

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#305 - 2012-07-26 12:33:24 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Did you seriously mine for the challenge? Shocked


I mined for profit. There was very little challenge in mining, even your hypothetical sleeping turtle could do it. But all the people with less intellect than a sleeping turtle complained so long and loud that they got what they wished for, so now mining will have a barrier of entry so low that even a dead turtle could do it.

When I speak of challenge, you might want to substitute barrier to entry.


Considering it's the first profession suggested to take, both in tutorials, on rookie chat and online websites, it can't be DA ELITE Everest entry barrier.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#306 - 2012-07-26 12:35:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Dave stark wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
[quote=Tyrton]You spend time repeating the same boring 3 points

So here we are with an exhumer that can field a 100k EHP tank yet still get 5/6th the yield of a Hulk. For the tank & capacity roles, I'd have expected 1/2 the yield of a Hulk (through a cycle bonus on strip miners and ice harvesters), and I'd have expected the Hulk to receive a slight decrease in EHP to compensate for its extremely high yield.


Nobody would use a ship yielding 1/2 of a peer tier other. Heck, nobody wanted to use a covetor which is way cheaper, 1 tier below yet it mines within 15% off an Hulk.

The scope of the "tiericide" instead is to make all the ship equally flown.


actually it's more than that, iirc you can only fit 2x mlu IIs on a covetor with an implant.


You can only fit those fabled "everybody should get" 32K EHP tanks with CPU implant, EFT "All skills to V" pilot and possibly an Orca boost.
Clearly the starter fitting for the starter profession.

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Dave stark
#307 - 2012-07-26 12:39:00 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
[quote=Tyrton]You spend time repeating the same boring 3 points

So here we are with an exhumer that can field a 100k EHP tank yet still get 5/6th the yield of a Hulk. For the tank & capacity roles, I'd have expected 1/2 the yield of a Hulk (through a cycle bonus on strip miners and ice harvesters), and I'd have expected the Hulk to receive a slight decrease in EHP to compensate for its extremely high yield.


Nobody would use a ship yielding 1/2 of a peer tier other. Heck, nobody wanted to use a covetor which is way cheaper, 1 tier below yet it mines within 15% off an Hulk.

The scope of the "tiericide" instead is to make all the ship equally flown.


actually it's more than that, iirc you can only fit 2x mlu IIs on a covetor with an implant.


You can only fit those fabled "everybody should get" 32K EHP tanks with CPU implant, EFT "All skills to V" pilot and possibly an Orca boost.
Clearly the starter fitting for the starter profession.


yeah but the fact you can't fit the 2nd mlu means the difference between the two ships is greater than 15%.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#308 - 2012-07-26 12:45:24 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


You can only fit those fabled "everybody should get" 32K EHP tanks with CPU implant, EFT "All skills to V" pilot and possibly an Orca boost.
Clearly the starter fitting for the starter profession.


Because hulks are a starter ship...
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#309 - 2012-07-26 12:49:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Dave stark wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Nobody would use a ship yielding 1/2 of a peer tier other. Heck, nobody wanted to use a covetor which is way cheaper, 1 tier below yet it mines within 15% off an Hulk.

The scope of the "tiericide" instead is to make all the ship equally flown.



You can only fit those fabled "everybody should get" 32K EHP tanks with CPU implant, EFT "All skills to V" pilot and possibly an Orca boost.
Clearly the starter fitting for the starter profession.


yeah but the fact you can't fit the 2nd mlu means the difference between the two ships is greater than 15%.


It's 20.3% off a T1 ship vs a T2 ship, which is a far, far call from Mara Rinn's "1/2" of peer tier ship.
But most "sane" Hulk setups don't have 2 MLUs so the difference is far less.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#310 - 2012-07-26 12:50:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


You can only fit those fabled "everybody should get" 32K EHP tanks with CPU implant, EFT "All skills to V" pilot and possibly an Orca boost.
Clearly the starter fitting for the starter profession.


Because hulks are a starter ship...


A 57 days pre-requisites training ship at the end of the starter profession is nothing compared to tons of other ships in EvE.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#311 - 2012-07-26 12:53:40 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
A 57 days pre-requisites training ship at the end of the starter profession is nothing compared to tons of other ships in EvE.


Such as Assault Ships, Covert Ops, or Electronic Attack Ships, for example?

Are you suggesting that Ishkurs and Kitsunes are starter ships?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#312 - 2012-07-26 12:56:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Mara Rinn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
A 57 days pre-requisites training ship at the end of the starter profession is nothing compared to tons of other ships in EvE.


Such as Assault Ships, Covert Ops, or Electronic Attack Ships, for example?

Are you suggesting that Ishkurs and Kitsunes are starter ships?


Are you suggesting you can't read starter *profession* and you want to read starter *ship*?

Quite sure in the rookie chat you don't get told to train Electronic Attack Ship ASAP and go use it around.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#313 - 2012-07-26 12:58:25 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
… now mining will have a barrier of entry so low that even a dead turtle could do it.

When I speak of challenge, you might want to substitute barrier to entry.


Considering it's the first profession suggested to take, both in tutorials, on rookie chat and online websites, it can't be DA ELITE Everest entry barrier.


Yes, and your point is … ?

The barrier for entry into mining was very low, and it is becoming lower with this barge buff. No longer do people even have to use their brain to come up with ways of not getting blown up when mining. Just fly that brand new hull with nothing more than an ice harvester ii fitted, and no-one in their right mind will interfere with you. Then you make some ISK to cover the cost of the ship and you end up fitting an ice harvester upgrade.

No thinking required. No barrier to entry. Mining is the window-licking profession.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#314 - 2012-07-26 13:01:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Mara Rinn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Did you seriously mine for the challenge? Shocked


I mined for profit. There was very little challenge in mining, even your hypothetical sleeping turtle could do it. But all the people with less intellect than a sleeping turtle complained so long and loud that they got what they wished for, so now mining will have a barrier of entry so low that even a dead turtle could do it.

When I speak of challenge, you might want to substitute barrier to entry.

Exactly this is the problem.

No matter what a miner does, they have to accept they're playing a gamestyle where a 5 year old taught what 2 buttons to push or an autohotkey script captured in 5minutes would be as safe and efficient as they are.

The skill cap on mining if these changes go through is quite literally nothing; the best players will be no more skilled than those who are fresh out of the tutorials.

There needs to be a mechanic by which players like Mara will have an advantage over players who think going AFK for most of their gameplay time is an equally valid mechanic.

The profession needs a complete overhaul, from the bottom right up, ASAP. It needs:

- Very low yields/rewards for a solo or AFK player.
- Highest yields/rewards for an active GROUP of players.

5 players working together to mine should be earning nearly 2x the ore per minute each of 1 player working alone, and that process needs to be highly interactive.

n.b. the process needs to be "active" enough that it can't just be 5 clients running it.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#315 - 2012-07-26 13:02:52 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Are you suggesting you can't read starter *profession* and you want to read starter *ship*?


Are you suggesting that recommending mining as a starter profession involves getting people into Hulks ASAP?

As a starter profession, my usual recommendation is to get into a Scythe or Osprey. Training Minmatar or Caldari Cruiser 5 opens up a wonderful world of combat ships that are fun to fly and actually useful in battle. Even for people planning to do only mining, my recommendation is to get into an Osprey rather than a retriever (though this advice will be changing drastically come August 8).

The Hulk is the ultimate mining ship: it is the end-game ship, not the starter ship. Flying it properly requires many skills trained to 5. Just because someone can get into one in 55 days of focussed training doesn't mean they can use it properly.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Cryten Jones
Advantage Inc
#316 - 2012-07-26 13:04:16 UTC
It's not fun when some random people get to force you into playing a particular way is it.... oh wait that's normally you guys...

Karma.
Dave stark
#317 - 2012-07-26 13:04:54 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Nobody would use a ship yielding 1/2 of a peer tier other. Heck, nobody wanted to use a covetor which is way cheaper, 1 tier below yet it mines within 15% off an Hulk.

The scope of the "tiericide" instead is to make all the ship equally flown.



You can only fit those fabled "everybody should get" 32K EHP tanks with CPU implant, EFT "All skills to V" pilot and possibly an Orca boost.
Clearly the starter fitting for the starter profession.


yeah but the fact you can't fit the 2nd mlu means the difference between the two ships is greater than 15%.


It's 20.3% off a T1 ship vs a T2 ship, which is a far, far call from Mara Rinn's "1/2" of peer tier ship.
But most "sane" Hulk setups don't have 2 MLUs so the difference is far less.


depends how we're defining sane. for solo mining, sure. however if you're solo mining you can't tank a covetor so you're a guarenteed free kill.

in a fleet though, why wouldn't you fit 2x mlus?
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#318 - 2012-07-26 13:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: dexington
Mara Rinn wrote:
No longer do people even have to use their brain to come up with ways of not getting blown up when mining.


As it should be in hi-sec, it's only fair that the aggressor has to be the one using brains. Destroyers taking on +200M T2 ships in high sec, pretty much risk free, is not how it should be.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#319 - 2012-07-26 13:06:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Skippermonkey
The real tragedy here is that instead of CCP reimagining Mining as a Profession, they have instead given the tools to miners to make it much easier to mine for longer periods without any needed input or concentration.

Further relegating mining as the profession of botters and alt accounts

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#320 - 2012-07-26 13:06:33 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
… now mining will have a barrier of entry so low that even a dead turtle could do it.

When I speak of challenge, you might want to substitute barrier to entry.


Considering it's the first profession suggested to take, both in tutorials, on rookie chat and online websites, it can't be DA ELITE Everest entry barrier.


Yes, and your point is … ?

The barrier for entry into mining was very low, and it is becoming lower with this barge buff. No longer do people even have to use their brain to come up with ways of not getting blown up when mining. Just fly that brand new hull with nothing more than an ice harvester ii fitted, and no-one in their right mind will interfere with you. Then you make some ISK to cover the cost of the ship and you end up fitting an ice harvester upgrade.

No thinking required. No barrier to entry. Mining is the window-licking profession.


That was engineered to be such a profession and it will stay so until they implement skill requiring game play.
No, staying aligned or spamming the 1 directional button or copying Ruby Porto's premade fittings is not "skill requiring game play".

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