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Barge Fairy Tale

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#241 - 2012-07-26 10:03:25 UTC
Jypsie wrote:
Quote:
I don't see what the problem is, then.


Quote:
Its fittings/stats that are the subject of disagreement.


*sigh*

If we've demonstrated that tank is unnecessary, why are you still arguing about it?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Jypsie
Wandering Star Enterprises
#242 - 2012-07-26 10:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jypsie
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Jypsie wrote:
Quote:
I don't see what the problem is, then.


Quote:
Its fittings/stats that are the subject of disagreement.


*sigh*

If we've demonstrated that tank is unnecessary, why are you still arguing about it?


We haven't. You're straw manning towards actions while the discusson is about statistics.

If it helps you along:

Quote:
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#243 - 2012-07-26 10:10:50 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
But the risk-free parking your exhumer in a belt and sucking up all the rocks or ice you can will be there.


This is false. You could increase the base EHP on a Hulk to 200,000, and it still would not be "risk free".

The only risk-free thing you can do in Eve is stay docked.

I think you understand the flaw in your argument has more to do with the feasibility of suicide ganking rather than the possibility.

Of course it's possible to suicide gank a Hulk, whether it has 20,000 EHP, 200,000 EHP, or 20,000,000 EHP. Nobody's going to bother suicide ganking Hulks with EHP much higher than they are now because it will simply cost too much.

Again, this promotes lazy gameplay, and makes mining ultra easy-mode in highsec.


Not arguing that, just regurgitating an oft used position taken by gankers when carebears make the mistake of assuming high-sec is 100% safe.



Well if you're not arguing that, then I think you can agree that this is a terrible change. It's like mining in a Rokh with a larger cargohold and a bonus to mining laser yield.


No, I don't agree, but I am of a mindset right now to patiently wait and see what else CCP is looking to do. Yeah, I'll mine a lot more and take advantage of it, but I don't expect it to be permanent.
I think if more people looked at EvE and saw it as a fluid, ever evolving environment, there would be a lot less butt-hurt when changes like this are made.
So people can't gank and miners get what is perceived to be a free ride. It won't last permanently. I was sure last fall that Tier 3 Battlecruisers were going to wreck industry, and was quite wrong. People were sure that the hybrid buff was going to make ganking "too easy", and in their eyes, it did, but CCP keeps changing things.
I think most people knew that sooner or later the industrial portion of EvE was going to get some changes, and that appears to be what is going on. No matter what change is made, someone is always going to QQ about it.
What I haven't seen a lot of on the forum is people trusting CCP to guide the game in a direction that will keep the pendulum swinging back and forth. There's a lot of sky-is-falling panic over changes. Assumptions that CCP has jumped the shark with the latest adjustment.
Maybe CCP has earned that lack of trust, but the game is still here. The servers still run better and have a more consistent up-time than many MMO's, and there's still things to do in game every day.
:)

Profit favors the prepared
pussnheels
Viziam
#244 - 2012-07-26 10:15:43 UTC
It is evolution miners had to adapt or faced extintion now it is the gankers turn to adapt or die out so simple , get over it

what is wrong with afk mining
somebody just give me one solid reason why i shouldn't be allowed to afk mine
people play this game how they want to play it not how you would like them to play the game and if you can not or will not understand this i advice you to start playing solo games so you can do whatever you want to do

Like someone mentioned a few days ago in another thread if i am not allowed to afk mine , why then are those nullsec idiots and other morons allow to AFK their moongoo

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#245 - 2012-07-26 10:16:22 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:


Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender).


And our point is that isk should not be the main factor in your "balancing" Using your logic, a frigate should never have a chance against a cruiser or bigger. Getting to a high level or spending a lot of money on items to be impossible to kill by lower levels is a horrible WoW mechanic that has no place in EVE. Training Exhumers and spending a lot of isk should not give you immunity unless your opponent spends an equal amount of isk.

You are violating two main design principles in EVE. Giving a ship too many capabilities and balancing it based on isk values of the ship.

You see the tier 3 Battlecruisers? They can use large guns and are very fast but are paper thin and very vulnerable to smaller, faster ships. That is a balanced ship. You want to create a tornado that can destroy any frigate easily with the EHP of a battleship. That is not balanced. I suggest you learn how to play EVE before you try to talk like you know anything about it.

Here's a better balancing idea:
Strip Miner new ability: Can only be activated in .3 and lower security.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#246 - 2012-07-26 10:16:39 UTC
Jypsie wrote:
We haven't. You're straw manning towards actions while the discusson is about statistics.

If it helps you along:

Quote:
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

You know, I really wish we could go back to this magical time where I don't have to go back and remind people what they said.

You said that you take issue with the fact that properly tanking an exhumer to survive a suicide ganking attempt requires using all of the ship's fitting slots, sacrificing cargohold and yield. I replied by stating this is irrelevant, because you can fit for max yield and avoid suicide ganking altogether. You continued by repeating your original position that the fitting stats were insufficient, which completely ignores my point that they're only insufficient to a completely inflexible and lazy play style.

There's no straw man here.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Johnson Johnson
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#247 - 2012-07-26 10:18:08 UTC
people used to play games for giggles rather than for imaginary space money
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#248 - 2012-07-26 10:20:39 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
It is evolution miners had to adapt or faced extintion now it is the gankers turn to adapt or die out so simple , get over it

what is wrong with afk mining
somebody just give me one solid reason why i shouldn't be allowed to afk mine
people play this game how they want to play it not how you would like them to play the game and if you can not or will not understand this i advice you to start playing solo games so you can do whatever you want to do

Like someone mentioned a few days ago in another thread if i am not allowed to afk mine , why then are those nullsec idiots and other morons allow to AFK their moongoo


Miners didn't adapt though. Gankers however will, it just means we cannot make a profit from your stupidity.
Jypsie
Wandering Star Enterprises
#249 - 2012-07-26 10:27:53 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Jypsie wrote:
We haven't. You're straw manning towards actions while the discusson is about statistics.

If it helps you along:

Quote:
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

You know, I really wish we could go back to this magical time where I don't have to go back and remind people what they said.

You said that you take issue with the fact that properly tanking an exhumer to survive a suicide ganking attempt requires using all of the ship's fitting slots, sacrificing cargohold and yield. I replied by stating this is irrelevant, because you can fit for max yield and avoid suicide ganking altogether. You continued by repeating your original position that the fitting stats were insufficient, which completely ignores my point that they're only insufficient to a completely inflexible and lazy play style.

There's no straw man here.


Both you and I have stated that it is possible to avoid ganking via actions. I have stated that by current stauts quo of fittings and statistcs for exhumers, it is not reasonable to avoid suicide ganking. I have reflected that other members of this forum stated that the statistics were reasonable.

You and I and Ruby are right that people can avoid being ganked by actions. This is a straw man when the thread is about statistic changes and fittings. Its similar yet unequivalent position.

Look at the monkey
Talon Kitsune
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#250 - 2012-07-26 10:41:16 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
But is he wrong?

Nope.

Fitted properly, a Hulk cannot be profitably ganked.


Is he wrong? Not really, he's not really right either tho. Profitability? Come on, 90% of mining ganks aren't profitable to begin with, for the majority it's not a profit game.

To gank the first two you don't need a Nado or Talos, create an alt, spend about two weeks, maybe a month if you want to do it right, spend about 20-30 million if you really want to tweak it out, and you can kill them easily enough in anything below a .7 system. For the third? Bring a friend or two (or have them do the same), still don't need to bring a nado or talos or spend anywhere near as much time or money as the miner did. You have to bring ten gankers in some pretty nicely geared catalysts to be about at even cost. And that only applies to hi-sec. That's where the balance issue is.

It's not that you can kill a miner, everyone is suppose to be killable, I get it and I accept it. No the issue is when the amount of time, effort, and cost involved is so absurdly much lower than your target that there isn't balance or anything close to it. You're spoon feeding gankers who have no need to bother with "skill" or even basic knowledge of the game. All they have to do is spend less than a minute reading one of the many gank guides out there or spend a few minutes watching the youtube videos. Toss in Goonswarm throwing money at them, and you've got yourself a great environment for e-peen measuring "hardcore" pvpers to pick on the weakest possible targets they can find, and claim it took some measure of skill or effort.

Are these changes a little overboard? Probably, but if it means the ganker has to spend anywhere near as much time and money as the miner did, then it's a step in the right direction. If it turns out that for a while the miners are on the plus side of the equation, well after so many years of being on the far negative side, maybe it's just karma. Who knows, next patch al DPS values could be tripled and this will be a moot point.

Me personally? I could care less about the changes, I spend a decent amount of time mining, but I've never been ganked mining or even forced to dock, and I run a 10k EHP hulk with x2 MLU's one loadout of mining drones and one of ECM. I *might* switch to a Mackinaw so I can miss a cycle once in a while if the yield difference is as small as it is in some threads, but it's very likely I'll just keep doing what I've been doing.

So feel free to complain about how miners are being visited by the barge fairy and that we're stupid little people who don't get that the game is about pew pew, whatever. Who really cares? I mean really, it's a fricken video game. Yes we spend time and some money on it (atleast before we get enough to just buy plex with ISK), but still it's just a game. It's meant to be fun, if this somehow ruins your fun, then find the new lowest target on the food chain and move on to that. If killing miners is your primary fun, then just move out of hi-sec or start war-dec'ing.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#251 - 2012-07-26 10:42:15 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You should not get a profit because you slap 2 hardeners to survive a gank, but because you had to solve something more complex than what a turtle could do while asleep in order to get those minerals. Other MMOs do that and they certainly don't have brighter designers than CCP.


In which games is mining any more difficult than beating someone else to the rock and then activating your mining skill?

I make a profit because I can survive a gank, but also because I practice that activity that all prey animals throughout the evolution of life on Earth have practised in order to survive and propagate the species: be alert. If you're in a group, make sure at least one of you is watching the region around you for danger.

This is more complex than "what a turtle could do while asleep".

The barge buff now means that mining is less complex than the simplest thing a turtle could do while dead. What challenge was left in mining is being taken away.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Josef Djugashvilis
#252 - 2012-07-26 10:42:19 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Well played, CCP.
Your DEVs/balancing team apparently have the reasoning ability of small children so I'll put this in terms they will understand.

**********
"Once upon a time there were three little miners. They ventured into the big wide world to earn their fortunes.

The First Little Miner went to Jita and fit his Hulk with Cargo Expanders.
This way, he could AFK mine with a minimum of effort and fuss. It left the miner plenty of freetime to daydream, jerk off, and watch Japanese Anime while earning ISK.

....Then along came the Big Bad Ganker in a Catalyst, saying "Little miner, little miner, I'm going to ******* do you in."
The first miner, predictably, was tabbed out and said nothing.
So the Ganker loaded and overheated and blew the Hulk in, and splattered the pod, too.

The Second Little Miner went to Jita, bought MLU's and a hauler.
This way, he could mine faster than anyone else - and become quite wealthy in no time. It was a bit more work, of course, but he kept himself entertained chatting in local with his neighbors.

...Then along came the Big Bad Ganker, in a Tornado, saying "Little miner, little miner, I'm going to ******* do you in."
The second miner, said "Not by the hair of my chinny, chin chin," aligns, and turned on his Small Booster II.
So the Ganker loaded and overheated and blew the Hulk in. The frightened miner flees in his pod, broke, but alive.

The Third Little Miner went to Jita and fit his Hulk with a DCII, MSE, Invulnerability Fields, and Shield Extender Rigs. Wisely, he sets his Hulk to orbit a nearby asteroid, and always kept an wary eye on his surroundings.

...Then along came the Big Bad Ganker, in a T2 Talos, saying "Little miner, little miner, I'm going to ******* do you in."
The Third miner chuckles to himself, overheats his Invulnerability Fields and aligns to the nearest station.
So the Ganker loaded, and overheated, and simply CANNOT blow the Hulk in.

Defeated, the ganker slinks off in his pod, and the smart little Miner scoops the Talos wreckage and sells it for a tidy profit."

THE END
**********

Cargo Hulk, Yield Hulk, Tank Hulk, those were the choices - all with drawbacks.

Cargo - for a Hybrid Exhumer/Hauler, with a risky AFK 'cruise control' option.
Yield - to maximize returns with friends providing transport.
Tank - 30-40K EHP to discourage/thwart gankers.
(and really, one could still put up a reasonable tank on either Cargo or Yield fit Hulks, if they used the mid-slots....Roll)

But choices are dangerous things. Given the choice, miners will take cargo/yield every time - and then throw a tantrum when they are ganked. The rare, clever miner who tanked his Hulk; well, he weathered the storm - and reaped the benefits as mineral prices rose.

But throw that out the window, just give the whining miners all three. Notice how CCP put quite a bit of care into saving miners from their own bad choices.

This is more than a buff - this is CCP acknowledging that miners, as a group, are too stupid to make the correct fitting choices.

Step 1: Idiot miners don't even use the slots they have - so slap stupid amounts of EHP directly to the hull, rather than give them additional slots/PG or CPU. Frigate-size Skiff, Orca EHP. Really?

Step 2: Idiot miners keep sacking their EHP with Cargo Expanders - so make Cargo Expanders pointless with the Ore Bay.
(And I doubt the DEVs will get around to fixing the 'special cargo bays don't drop loot' bug, either - simply because fixing THAT bug would benefit the wrong kinds of players, I suppose.....)

So, good game, CCP.
Good to know we are still steaming, full speed ahead! - towards Hello-Kitty highsec, a paradise for bots and stupidass gameplay. Hard to hear myself say it, but I'm now officially nostalgic for the days of Incarna and WiS development. At least back then, the DEVs were merely wasting their own time. Roll



Good job gankers can only bring one Talos at a time to the party.

This is not a signature.
pussnheels
Viziam
#253 - 2012-07-26 10:48:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
It is evolution miners had to adapt or faced extintion now it is the gankers turn to adapt or die out so simple , get over it

what is wrong with afk mining
somebody just give me one solid reason why i shouldn't be allowed to afk mine
people play this game how they want to play it not how you would like them to play the game and if you can not or will not understand this i advice you to start playing solo games so you can do whatever you want to do

Like someone mentioned a few days ago in another thread if i am not allowed to afk mine , why then are those nullsec idiots and other morons allow to AFK their moongoo


Miners didn't adapt though. Gankers however will, it just means we cannot make a profit from your stupidity.

not really true over the last 2 months i ve seen a change in miner attitude , away from the max yield hulks , sure there are still plenty out there who still mine stupid
and i disagree with the second part of your answer , adapt you need to learn to adapt , somebody will come up with a method to gank them, it will only take more effort , effort keyword , here
and no i am not happy how mining actually works , it is long and boring work and very open to abuse by bots
but i can understand that some people after a long stressfull day at the office , watching their stripminers chew rocks relieves stress
what i find harder to understand why some people only want to ruin other gaming experience by acting like a bunch of white trash teenagers who s like nothing more than to set fire to the neigbours pet rabbit

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#254 - 2012-07-26 10:48:55 UTC
Talon Kitsune wrote:
It's not that you can kill a miner, everyone is suppose to be killable, I get it and I accept it. No the issue is when the amount of time, effort, and cost involved is so absurdly much lower than your target that there isn't balance or anything close to it. You're spoon feeding gankers who have no need to bother with "skill" or even basic knowledge of the game. All they have to do is spend less than a minute reading one of the many gank guides out there or spend a few minutes watching the youtube videos.


And all the hisec miner has to do is read a few anti-ganking guides and fit a handful of modules worth less than 10M ISK.

The miner who wants to get more yield, takes more risk. Alternately, the miners in low sec and null sec get to fit for more yield because they have the luxury of being able to warp to safe/station the moment strangers enter their system.

Thus there is an incentive for mining fleets to move to more dangerous space. There would be more of an incentive if Nocxium was removed from Pyroxeres.

CCP could have done so much with mining, but instead they decided to give us invulnerable bots harvesting ore and ice 24/7.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#255 - 2012-07-26 10:51:30 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
pussnheels wrote:

not really true over the last 2 months i ve seen a change in miner attitude , away from the max yield hulks , sure there are still plenty out there who still mine stupid
and i disagree with the second part of your answer , adapt you need to learn to adapt , somebody will come up with a method to gank them, it will only take more effort , effort keyword , here
and no i am not happy how mining actually works , it is long and boring work and very open to abuse by bots
but i can understand that some people after a long stressfull day at the office , watching their stripminers chew rocks relieves stress
what i find harder to understand why some people only want to ruin other gaming experience by acting like a bunch of white trash teenagers who s like nothing more than to set fire to the neigbours pet rabbit


No offense but, multistory libraries could be filled with the things that miners don't understand about Eve.

For example that nobody gives a f*** if you just want a stress relief. Or that this buff is another tiny nail in the coffin of Eve. And also, that it will only cause more ganking, not less. And this time with a passion to drive scum like you out of the game. And I'll be participating.

ITT: CCP taking measures to protect the biggest homogeneous group of their subscribers - bots.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#256 - 2012-07-26 10:52:50 UTC
Though to be fair, with this barge buff we might see a drastic increase in the value of T2 salvage.

So watch out, marauder pilots! You have less EHP than exhumers :)

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Michus Danether
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#257 - 2012-07-26 10:54:57 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Lots of complaining


HTFU.

Things change, adapt. Fly gank-fit dominix from now on if you still want miner tears.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#258 - 2012-07-26 10:59:55 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
CCP could have done so much with mining, but instead they decided to give us invulnerable bots harvesting ore and ice 24/7.


It's not like they don't exist now, all battleships with 8 high out mine anything that can't fit 3 strip miners.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#259 - 2012-07-26 11:02:25 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
what i find harder to understand why some people only want to ruin other gaming experience by acting like a bunch of white trash teenagers who s like nothing more than to set fire to the neigbours pet rabbit


Because burning down the factories of people who haven't got fire fighting equipment means that your fire-resistant factory is more profitable.

Welcome to extreme capitalism and piracy, in the cold harsh Objectivist world of EVE Online.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#260 - 2012-07-26 11:04:23 UTC
dexington wrote:
It's not like they don't exist now, all battleships with 8 high out mine anything that can't fit 3 strip miners.


You can't harvest ice in a battleship.

Mining asteroids in a battleship would require the bot to target new asteroids constantly and move to new belts when the current belt is exhausted. Then mining in a fleet would require more coordination between the bots to ensure they aren't mining each others' rocks.

I'm sure there's a bot out there that can handle all of the above, but the simplest bots will harvest ice because ice never pops.

Day 0 Advice for New Players