These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Barge Fairy Tale

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2461 - 2012-07-31 20:00:50 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

But VV was complaining that fitting a Brick Tank gimps the TQ Hulk's yield too much, and that reduces the yield less than switching to a SISI Mackinaw will.


No.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Dave stark
#2462 - 2012-07-31 20:02:18 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Does everyone in your fleet need a full set of crystals? Can you not dedicate certain people do different types of ore and actually make effective use of your numbers?


even if you don't need a full set, you can't get a half set in with the current cargo capacity. that's the thing, if we revert back to the old 500m3 cargo bay iirc we still can't fit a full set of crystals however; we can fit enough sets of crystals that there's a wide enough range of crystals for it not to be an issue.


You can fit 3 Ores worth of Crystals. Do you really have situations where you have to switch ores more than 3 times while the Hauler's making a run to station?


clearly i do; or it wouldn't be an issue.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2463 - 2012-07-31 20:05:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Certainly being able to bring 4 sets of cystals instead of 3 is absolutely as game breaking as T20 or subcap killer fitted Titans.

I mean, look at the opposition, you'll find less opposition at making drugs legal.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Pipa Porto
#2464 - 2012-07-31 20:06:34 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Does everyone in your fleet need a full set of crystals? Can you not dedicate certain people do different types of ore and actually make effective use of your numbers?


even if you don't need a full set, you can't get a half set in with the current cargo capacity. that's the thing, if we revert back to the old 500m3 cargo bay iirc we still can't fit a full set of crystals however; we can fit enough sets of crystals that there's a wide enough range of crystals for it not to be an issue.


You can fit 3 Ores worth of Crystals. Do you really have situations where you have to switch ores more than 3 times while the Hauler's making a run to station?


clearly i do; or it wouldn't be an issue.


The Station run shouldn't take more than 9m (your Orca's not boosting during the run), and should make much less than 9m. You're seriously short stroking your Strips (by a lot) to change ore types?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#2465 - 2012-07-31 20:07:41 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Certainly being able to bring 4 sets of cystals instead of 3 is absolutely as game breaking as T20 or subcap killer fitted Titans.

I mean, look at the opposition, you'll find less opposition at making drugs legal.


Clearly only being able to bring 3 sets of crystals instead of 4 makes the Hulk useless despite the 20% increase in yield.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#2466 - 2012-07-31 20:10:15 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Certainly being able to bring 4 sets of cystals instead of 3 is absolutely as game breaking as T20 or subcap killer fitted Titans.

I mean, look at the opposition, you'll find less opposition at making drugs legal.


Clearly only being able to bring 3 sets of crystals instead of 4 makes the Hulk useless despite the 20% increase in yield.


it's not a 20% increase, at the moment.
Pipa Porto
#2467 - 2012-07-31 20:16:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Certainly being able to bring 4 sets of cystals instead of 3 is absolutely as game breaking as T20 or subcap killer fitted Titans.

I mean, look at the opposition, you'll find less opposition at making drugs legal.


Clearly only being able to bring 3 sets of crystals instead of 4 makes the Hulk useless despite the 20% increase in yield.


it's not a 20% increase, at the moment.


You're forgetting the 15% from Barge 5. Skiff/Mack doesn't have that.

It's actually 25%. 100/79~=1.25.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1686159#post1686159
Denidil wrote:
hulk bonuses are unchanged so (so it's mining yield is unchanged) so we can figure out all the mining rates relative to a hulk

these calculations are based on Exhumers V/Barge V char, for mining rock not ice - this is without MLUs


Ship - Strips * modifiers = effective # of strip mining modules

Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15
Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15

Covetor - 3 strips * 1.2 (barge V) = 3.6
Retriever - 2 strips * 1.5 (role bonus) = 3 strips
Procurer - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) = 3 strips


or % relative to a hulk

Mackinaw: 79.4%
Skiff: 79.4%

Covetor: 90.7%
Retriever: 75.6%
Procurer: 75.6%

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2468 - 2012-07-31 20:23:13 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Certainly being able to bring 4 sets of cystals instead of 3 is absolutely as game breaking as T20 or subcap killer fitted Titans.

I mean, look at the opposition, you'll find less opposition at making drugs legal.


Clearly only being able to bring 3 sets of crystals instead of 4 makes the Hulk useless despite the 20% increase in yield.


Clearly gimping the workflow of the ship meant to have the best yield is what's needed to make Hulks competitive over other ships that don't need any fleet, any defense, any micromanagement.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Pipa Porto
#2469 - 2012-07-31 20:27:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Certainly being able to bring 4 sets of cystals instead of 3 is absolutely as game breaking as T20 or subcap killer fitted Titans.

I mean, look at the opposition, you'll find less opposition at making drugs legal.


Clearly only being able to bring 3 sets of crystals instead of 4 makes the Hulk useless despite the 20% increase in yield.


Clearly gimping the workflow of the ship meant to have the best yield is what's needed to make Hulks competitive over other ships that don't need any fleet, any defense, any micromanagement.


Clearly a 25+% yield(income) boost isn't enough to make Hulks competitive over other ships. Why have people been using MLU Hulks instead of Brick tanked Hulks if 25% isn't a giant income boost?

And the not needing any defense thing is a problem with the current SISI Mackinaw. Steals all the thunder from the Skiff.
Not needing any micro is a problem with the current SISI Skiff's ore bay. Steals all the thunder from the Mack if the above is fixed.

And again, how is it gimping the workflow? If you're not in corp together, you don't get the convenience of corp hangars, and you just have to jetcan.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2470 - 2012-07-31 20:31:50 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


Clearly a 25+% yield(income) boost isn't enough to make Hulks competitive over other ships. Why have people been using MLU Hulks instead of Brick tanked Hulks if 25% isn't a giant income boost?


They used MLUs because before the last months there was never a permanent Hulkageddon so tanking the Hulks was not needed. So why gimp the ship if gankers were only to be dealt with 1 for month a year?


Pipa Porto wrote:

And again, how is it gimping the workflow? If you're not in corp together, you don't get the convenience of corp hangars, and you just have to jetcan.


Try stop hammering F5 on the forums and get out mine for 1 week, most of your questions will be sorted.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Dave stark
#2471 - 2012-07-31 20:32:52 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Certainly being able to bring 4 sets of cystals instead of 3 is absolutely as game breaking as T20 or subcap killer fitted Titans.

I mean, look at the opposition, you'll find less opposition at making drugs legal.


Clearly only being able to bring 3 sets of crystals instead of 4 makes the Hulk useless despite the 20% increase in yield.


it's not a 20% increase, at the moment.


You're forgetting the 15% from Barge 5. Skiff/Mack doesn't have that.

It's actually 25%. 100/79~=1.25.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1686159#post1686159
Denidil wrote:
hulk bonuses are unchanged so (so it's mining yield is unchanged) so we can figure out all the mining rates relative to a hulk

these calculations are based on Exhumers V/Barge V char, for mining rock not ice - this is without MLUs


Ship - Strips * modifiers = effective # of strip mining modules

Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15
Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15

Covetor - 3 strips * 1.2 (barge V) = 3.6
Retriever - 2 strips * 1.5 (role bonus) = 3 strips
Procurer - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) = 3 strips


or % relative to a hulk

Mackinaw: 79.4%
Skiff: 79.4%

Covetor: 90.7%
Retriever: 75.6%
Procurer: 75.6%


however that's without fittings. max yield for both ships brings the difference to 15.5526....% due to the mack's third mlu.
Blastil
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#2472 - 2012-07-31 20:42:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Blastil
Richard Desturned wrote:


you're entirely wrong here because nullsec mining is never done solo, it's done in fleets.

in their current SiSi state barges (besides the covetor/hulk) have such inflated HP numbers that they'll have far more EHP, unfit, than unfit fleet command ships (you know, the ones that fit links and are fit to tank a massive fleet, but can't do any DPS worth a damn) and even some tanked HACs.

the 'proper' change would have been to give them actual T2 resists and perhaps the ability to fit LSEs (via, say, a bonus that reduces the fitting requirements for LSEs) so that the decision between fitting for yield and a tank doesn't leave you with a useless tank (in the case of the Mackinaw) with gimped yield.

allowing them to have good 50-60k EHP tanks at the expense of yield would have been the right approach - it'd leave miners with more meaningful fitting choices, it'd give an advantage to miners who don't simply turn their mining lasers on and get off their computer to do their laundry and it wouldn't simply leave you with an idiot-proof ship - "here's a ship that has everything you need and you don't have to bother trying to fit it right, just fit strip miners and go"


while nullsec mining IS done in groups, its super annoying when your new mining toon can't mine with the best of them because every 10 minutes you have to warp out when rats spawn in the belt, and you don't have half a billion to buy a well fitted hulk. This is unlike every other profession in EVE (except technium moon technician) where within weeks you can contribute meaningfully to other players. the risk vs reward is very screwed up too, requiring billions and billions of ISK in risk for a relatively tiny profit compared to say complexing, which turns a much higher return for a billion isk investment in a t3 cloaked ship.

I'm certainly not saying that EHP should NOT be balanced, however, these ships should HAVE MORE HITPOINTS. Honestly, it makes no sense why there are ships which are larger than battle cruisers with less hit points in line with a frigate. from both a gameplay perspective AND a realism one.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#2473 - 2012-07-31 20:58:57 UTC
I can't believe there are 126 pages on this... Shocked

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Dave stark
#2474 - 2012-07-31 21:00:29 UTC
Gogela wrote:
I can't believe there are 126 pages on this... Shocked


mining, it's as important as goons exploiting faction warfare.
Pipa Porto
#2475 - 2012-07-31 21:01:42 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Clearly a 25+% yield(income) boost isn't enough to make Hulks competitive over other ships. Why have people been using MLU Hulks instead of Brick tanked Hulks if 25% isn't a giant income boost?


They used MLUs because before the last months there was never a permanent Hulkageddon so tanking the Hulks was not needed. So why gimp the ship if gankers were only to be dealt with 1 for month a year?


You were moaning that my brick tank fit was unrealistic during the throws of the permanent HAG (when clearly tanking is needed).

Quote:

Pipa Porto wrote:

And again, how is it gimping the workflow? If you're not in corp together, you don't get the convenience of corp hangars, and you just have to jetcan.


Try stop hammering F5 on the forums and get out mine for 1 week, most of your questions will be sorted.


I used to mine. I quit because it didn't pay well.

You're saying that you mine in an NPC Corp Orca and Hulk. That means you can't use the Corp Hangars with the Hulk, so you have to Jetcan the ore to transfer it. What's the problem with transferring the Crystals back?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#2476 - 2012-07-31 21:02:35 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Gogela wrote:
I can't believe there are 126 pages on this... Shocked


mining, it's as important as goons exploiting faction warfare.

People still mine?! Big smile

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Dave stark
#2477 - 2012-07-31 21:04:45 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Gogela wrote:
I can't believe there are 126 pages on this... Shocked


mining, it's as important as goons exploiting faction warfare.

People still mine?! Big smile


where do you think minerals come from?
Pipa Porto
#2478 - 2012-07-31 21:05:13 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
however that's without fittings. max yield for both ships brings the difference to 15.5526....% due to the mack's third mlu.


Ok, 15%. That's still a great big yield bonus.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2479 - 2012-07-31 21:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Pipa Porto wrote:


You were moaning that my brick tank fit was unrealistic during the throws of the permanent HAG (when clearly tanking is needed).


No, I was moaning that after I spent weeks to train an alt for your fitting required V skills and then fitted a Mack with your tank fit, it was horribly performing (35% less, not just some theorycrafted -15% or 20%) AND 1 ganker volley still hit it hard.

The fact I was rabidly watching around me like an hawk and warped in 3 seconds saved me NOT your fitting, at the same time I suffered for a large missed ISK income because of the massive yield drop.



Pipa Porto wrote:

You're saying that you mine in an NPC Corp Orca and Hulk. That means you can't use the Corp Hangars with the Hulk, so you have to Jetcan the ore to transfer it. What's the problem with transferring the Crystals back?


I only have 1 rarely used character in NPC corp (PI alt), all the others are in multiple corps.
Your point was?


Edit:

I will NEVER EVER keep the Orca(s) close to the ships, I am not so dumb to let Bat Country and similar pull a smart bomb and them make a nice taunting video about it.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#2480 - 2012-07-31 21:09:48 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
where do you think minerals come from?


Like a kid asking where burgers are coming from...^^

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)