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Barge Fairy Tale

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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#201 - 2012-07-26 08:36:23 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
If these changes go through I'd like to see CCP put bot hunting into overdrive. These changes will make botting all the more easier because you don't need to worry about that mining ship getting ganked.


Totally wrong. Botters have 20 replacement ships, their money comes from huge quantity over time not from survivability.

A small mining op can make 300M a day, a botter makes 900M+. Imagine how much they care to lose a ship every now and them.


Actually, the botters DO care. The random odd gank, no - but dedicated persecution bothers them.

Persecution required good tactics and effort. Using the Tornado Boomerang, I torched over 50 Botting Mackinaws over an 8 hour period - all belonging to a single Ukrainian botter. Made hundreds of millions in Salvage profits, killing 3-4 Exhumers at a time, every 15 minutes.

Goons are well known to drive botters from one region to another, through sheer force of numbers.

The problem? Well, naturally, they cheat. It comes easily for Russians in my experience. They simply redflag your gank char, and the script auto-docks the entire fleet - the instant you enter local. (as ratters do in nullsec). Then its up to CCP rule enforcement - which in my experience takes months - if they are dealt with at all.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#202 - 2012-07-26 08:38:27 UTC
Jypsie wrote:
Or maybe the gankers will have to go back to shooting each other to make their money. Get their asses back out there blowing each other up and creating upward pressure on the price of minerals.

The risk free money of blowing up a exhumer, looting the t2 strips, salvaging intact plates, and getting a isk GG pat on the ass from goons all for the cost of a well fit dessie isn't going to be there anymore.


But the risk-free parking your exhumer in a belt and sucking up all the rocks or ice you can will be there. This is a situation that I do not like, and I dislike it more than I dislike the ability for a 12M ISK blaster catalyst to blow up at 300M ISK hulk before CONCORD can intervene. At least the miner has the option of fitting a tank. When it comes to mining in perfect safety, the options are "mine heaps" or "mine even more heaps" there is no control of this system except the individual's perceived value of time.

Someone running a Bot will continue to do so while the value of running that Bot is greater than zero. Thus humans competing with Bots will end up in the situation of mining for marginally more than 0ISK/hr. The humans will be better off running stealth bomber alts in Minmatar militia.

So while you are celebrating cheaper ships, just be aware that you are supporting bots.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Dave Stark
#203 - 2012-07-26 08:41:15 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:


Good stuff. Soundwave should try and absorb what I have to say.



Couldn't have said it better myself - and I've been saying it for 3-4 years now.

Remove the predators from the equation and you end up with large numbers of very stupid prey - and they starve when they exhaust the food supply (ie, overrun the demand for minerals/ice.)

All miners end up the same, with no challenges to distinguish (and reward) the intelligent ones over the slow and stupid.

And yes, make no mistake - this IS removing predators from the equation, because gankers are not going to waste 500M ISK to gank your AFKing, 200M ISK Mackinaw, let alone over a billion to kill your 120M ISK Skiff.

Somehow I don't think 'belt rats' are going to pose a credible threat to these new Exhumers.






the problem is, you can't have belt rats that will 1shot new players. in terms of belt rats even the regular mining barges with no tank at all are overtanked for high sec belt rats. a flight of light drones will take out the high sec belt rats in a single volley, maybe two depending on your drone skills. however with rats not spawning in 1.0 systems i guess we could justify throwing battleship rats in to high sec.



Not true, try flying a Retriever with newbie skills below 0.7 sec and it gets popped so fast it's unreal. Even spamming shield repeair. The game has to work for them too.


really? i guess it has been a while since i've been mining in a retriever in high sec; still my drone skills aren't any thing special and 0.7 space rats pop within 2 volleys. it's about what, 9 days training for 5x t2 light drones? and up to 14 days if you add drone interfacing IV to that. i'm sure new players can tolerate mining in 1.0 systems for 2 weeks. it's skills they want anyway.

not to mention the lucrative ores (atm, scordite) can be found in 0.7 systems which have laughable rats.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#204 - 2012-07-26 08:44:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Herr Wilkus wrote:
The problem? Well, naturally, they cheat. It comes easily for Russians in my experience. They simply redflag your gank char, and the script auto-docks the entire fleet - the instant you enter local. (as ratters do in nullsec).

Do Russians cheat more than other nationalities/ethnicities because of their familiarity with red flags or is there some other reason?

.
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#205 - 2012-07-26 08:44:33 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender).

That's a nice sentiment I suppose, but it seems you've failed to back it up with anything resembling a justification.

Do you have any idea what you're about to do to the game with this change?
Do you seriously believe this is a good idea?
MINERS THEMSELVES should be against this change, because it promotes lazy gameplay. Intelligent miners will be making far less, the price of minerals as a whole will drop, and supercapital production will be significantly cheaper. The only miners that will make any kind of money now are the same miners who find it difficult to pull a profit under these conditions because they're lazy and mine for hours simply because they don't even sit at their computers while they do it.

How you could possibly think this is a good idea is beyond me.


i nearly took you seriously until you said miners could be afk for hours demonstrating you've never mined for more than 5 mins in your entire life.

Yeah, I admit I forgot the part where you press F1, F2, and F3, and then go about whatever you were doing before.

The point is you don't even have to pay attention anymore, because it won't matter whatsoever.


and you still can't go afk for hours because asteroids will pop after about 6 mins. less if you're not using a hulk.


Ice does not pop after six minutes.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#206 - 2012-07-26 08:46:07 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
adapt or leave


ahahahaha that's the same advice we gave to the miners, "fit a tank" "try drones that don't mine" "try not going AFK" but they felt entitled to have their max-yield fits AND a damnation-sized tank so they cried to CCP


It's not like you are not crying to CCP yourself right now.

From 0.0 hardened barons none the less. "We are out to ruin your game" and all that jazz.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#207 - 2012-07-26 08:46:40 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Not true, try flying a Retriever with newbie skills below 0.7 sec and it gets popped so fast it's unreal. Even spamming shield repeair. The game has to work for them too.


A newbie mi er found this out the hard way yesterday: lost a retriever in Brapelille to a single Serpentis frigate. What I don't understand was that he sat there in a capsule for half an hour while some NPC corp type salvaged the wreck and stole his loot.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Dave Stark
#208 - 2012-07-26 08:49:16 UTC
Ginseng Jita wrote:


Ice does not pop after six minutes.


true, but he implied that minerals would fall because of afk miners. simply not true. ice prices falling because of afk miners sure, but not minerals. hence why it's obvious he hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#209 - 2012-07-26 08:55:27 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
But the risk-free parking your exhumer in a belt and sucking up all the rocks or ice you can will be there.


This is false. You could increase the base EHP on a Hulk to 200,000, and it still would not be "risk free".

The only risk-free thing you can do in Eve is stay docked.

Profit favors the prepared
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#210 - 2012-07-26 08:56:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
-clip- Racist - ISD Tyrozan
/Sacha Baron Cohen
Jypsie
Wandering Star Enterprises
#211 - 2012-07-26 08:59:23 UTC
Quote:
So while you are celebrating cheaper ships, just be aware that you are supporting bots.


I'll leave it to CCP to declare whose a bot and whose a single mom hoovering scordite between loads of laundry.

In the end, the price of minerals will be determined by NullSec Wars (upward pressure) and CCP's lack/strength of bot banning (downward pressure.) Sure, there are lots of little things in between that affect it, but IMNSHO those are the big things. As the price fluxes, you will see real miners join and leave the profession. They are more reactionary, not a market maker, not a influence. Its big wars draining the supplies, and CCP either doing something or not to cut off the cheap minerals.
Zowie Powers
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#212 - 2012-07-26 09:07:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
-clip- attack on CCP personnel - ISD Tyrozan

ATX: The best of the rest.
Jypsie
Wandering Star Enterprises
#213 - 2012-07-26 09:07:37 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
But the risk-free parking your exhumer in a belt and sucking up all the rocks or ice you can will be there.


This is false. You could increase the base EHP on a Hulk to 200,000, and it still would not be "risk free".

The only risk-free thing you can do in Eve is stay docked.


I was docked and this guy wanted to sell me a Navy Raven real cheap since he was moving out to NullSec. But when I finished the trade he had given me a normal Raven. For some reason he won't talk to me anymore.

Cry
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#214 - 2012-07-26 09:07:58 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
If these changes go through I'd like to see CCP put bot hunting into overdrive. These changes will make botting all the more easier because you don't need to worry about that mining ship getting ganked.


Totally wrong. Botters have 20 replacement ships, their money comes from huge quantity over time not from survivability.

A small mining op can make 300M a day, a botter makes 900M+. Imagine how much they care to lose a ship every now and them.


Actually, the botters DO care. The random odd gank, no - but dedicated persecution bothers them.

Persecution required good tactics and effort. Using the Tornado Boomerang, I torched over 50 Botting Mackinaws over an 8 hour period - all belonging to a single Ukrainian botter. Made hundreds of millions in Salvage profits, killing 3-4 Exhumers at a time, every 15 minutes.

Goons are well known to drive botters from one region to another, through sheer force of numbers.

The problem? Well, naturally, they cheat. It comes easily for Russians in my experience. They simply redflag your gank char, and the script auto-docks the entire fleet - the instant you enter local. (as ratters do in nullsec). Then its up to CCP rule enforcement - which in my experience takes months - if they are dealt with at all.


You are talking about the 1% of professional botters who probably also RMT.
The 99% are just blokes with 1-2 ships running some crappy autokey or something.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#215 - 2012-07-26 09:08:25 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
[After the changes, mining profitability will drop off a cliff because the only people doing it will be those asleep at the keyboard or whose cats are playing for them. People like me will switch to whatever else is better at raising ISK.

We have a dog that FCs, do you think it could multibox a small ice mining fleet?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#216 - 2012-07-26 09:10:58 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
But the risk-free parking your exhumer in a belt and sucking up all the rocks or ice you can will be there.


This is false. You could increase the base EHP on a Hulk to 200,000, and it still would not be "risk free".

The only risk-free thing you can do in Eve is stay docked.


See this is the disingenuous thing again. Normally I'd ignore stuff like this, but we just watched CCP Soundwave post similar ideas. "Its not like we are making Exhumers invulnerable." Roll

Sure, lets use a theoretical 200K EHP Hulk as an example.
Suicide ganking one is still, technically, possible. It would *only* take 20 Tornados to kill.
Soundwave hasn't 'turned off' high sec aggression, so whats the beef?

Its this: 20 Tornados cost 2 Billion, and a replacement Hulk is only 300M - therefore it simply won't happen in any imaginable situation where ISK has value. And thats just ISK - we are also talking about 20 players spending time, vs one! Hulk.

Conclusion, while one should be careful speaking in absolutes... it also pays to dwell within the realm of realistic possibility.

Sure, someone could suicide gank the Veldnaught. But would it really happen? No.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#217 - 2012-07-26 09:11:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender).

You can still make it so it's not profitable, yet also within the realms of what one might do if they were so inclined.

If you want to balance cost, then an *untanked* hulk should be killable to 1 or 2 Nado's, with a good reward for tanking them, making it say, 45-50k EHP fully fit.

What you want to do is offer a low base EHP but give it more fitting room to fit a stiff tank if the user wants to.

The current situation is such that even the mining barge designed to be weak and flimsy is immune to anything less than the focused aggression of 5 people, which is a buff the likes of which we have never seen.

By the way, the "making it unprofitable" part is just silly. If I want to make money doing it I can alpha a Tengu and collect all the Gist goodies that spill out. If people move here are you just going to put a 4x EHP buff to an active Tengu, as well?

This really looks like a change which does nothing else than protect players who are unable/refuse to protect themselves, and trying to balance the game to make it safer for the lowest common denominator just smacks of the wrong direction, totally.

The changes to the lower tier barges is mostly OK, but the massive Hulk buff does nothing but promote AFK mining with little to no risk. If they really want to do that, then they should accept they get EHP from lower yields.

This is really a best of both scenario.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#218 - 2012-07-26 09:12:10 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

Someone running a Bot will continue to do so while the value of running that Bot is greater than zero. Thus humans competing with Bots will end up in the situation of mining for marginally more than 0ISK/hr. The humans will be better off running stealth bomber alts in Minmatar militia.

So while you are celebrating cheaper ships, just be aware that you are supporting bots.


No, the very mining mining "profession" is so bland and bot friendly.

You should not get a profit because you slap 2 hardeners to survive a gank, but because you had to solve something more complex than what a turtle could do while asleep in order to get those minerals. Other MMOs do that and they certainly don't have brighter designers than CCP.

CCP should have revamped the whole thing to be more "active player friendly" but alas they didn't.

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Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#219 - 2012-07-26 09:14:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Evei Shard
Jypsie wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
But the risk-free parking your exhumer in a belt and sucking up all the rocks or ice you can will be there.


This is false. You could increase the base EHP on a Hulk to 200,000, and it still would not be "risk free".

The only risk-free thing you can do in Eve is stay docked.


I was docked and this guy wanted to sell me a Navy Raven real cheap since he was moving out to NullSec. But when I finished the trade he had given me a normal Raven. For some reason he won't talk to me anymore.

Cry


:P
So the only risk free thing you can do then is bio-mass.

But I suppose some people would manage to mess that one up too.

Ah well, there go the dreams of something risk-free in Eve.

Profit favors the prepared
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#220 - 2012-07-26 09:18:20 UTC
Dave stark wrote:


really? i guess it has been a while since i've been mining in a retriever in high sec; still my drone skills aren't any thing special and 0.7 space rats pop within 2 volleys. it's about what, 9 days training for 5x t2 light drones? and up to 14 days if you add drone interfacing IV to that. i'm sure new players can tolerate mining in 1.0 systems for 2 weeks. it's skills they want anyway.

not to mention the lucrative ores (atm, scordite) can be found in 0.7 systems which have laughable rats.


Right 2 days ago I needed 999 trit to complete a R&D mission on an alt who sits at 40 jumps away off Jita.
I checked the market of this 0.6 sec system and the closest trit for sale was 22 jumps away.

So I thought: "well she's in a frig and by chance I got 1 mining laser I fitted, let's just take from a roid in this system".

Now that alt is one of the 2008 "900k SP" ones, that is well better suited than modern new characters yet I could not do a single cycle before I was taken to hull by the 3 rats in there.

Sucks to be new in EvE. Game should entice new players go discover around (other MMOs grant XP or unlocks for that) not to stick to 1.0 sec for 2 months or else...

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