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FW - Switching Warzone Control Scaling to a Different System
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Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-07-25 05:29:32 UTC
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2012/07/faction-warfare-moving-warzone-scaling.html

LP should be earned at the warzone control you're currently at. You shouldn't be rewarded because you can burst warzone control to its highest level for 60-120 minutes.

This last Sunday, Minmatar pushed their warzone control to tier 5. It stayed there for approximately 120 minutes. All 523K loyalty points that I spent at T5 control, I actually earned while at T3 control. I spent 5 hours earning those LP at T3, yet spent 15 minutes spending them at T5.

That seems wrong to me. It apparently seems wrong to many people, on all sides of the faction war.

This is an idea that Hans Jagerblitzen is pushing for. I agree with it. It makes a tonne of sense. (I have no idea if it has traction with CCP though. I can't imagine it doesn't interest and intrigue them, but you never quite know with those mysterious CCP devs.)

The LP Store pricing should be static. It should not fluctuate with warzone control. The pricing should be fixed at current T3 control prices.

What should scale with warzone control is the amount of LP that is awarded due to plexing and destroying the ships of enemy faction players. (And perhaps missioning, but since faction warfare is supposed to be a PvP activity, including missioning maybe adds too much of an element of PvE into the equation.)

If you're awarded 20000 LP for completing a medium plex at T3, then you'd be awarded 10000 LP at T2, and 5000 LP at T1. Conversely, 40000 LP at T4 and 80000 LP at T5.

Basically you're rewarded (or not) for the warzone control that your faction can maintain. You earn for as long as you're at a certain tier of control. You aren't rewarded because you can make short bursts to higher levels.

Even though T1 rewards crappy amounts of LP at the lower tier of control, players who do eventually build up a cache of LP are still guaranteed to purchase items from the LP store at a reasonable and fixed amount. If they wish to turn those purchases into ISK, they're still guaranteed to get a half-decent return on many of the available items.

Likely a solution that's very doable by CCP. You're not removing any of the faction warfare mechanics, you're simply applying a mechanic onto a different system (in this case, moving the scaling from the LP Store to the plexing and killing rewards themselves.)
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#2 - 2012-07-25 06:14:30 UTC
Not saying you're wrong, but where's the financial incentive to plex at Tier 1 control? The system was set up this way so that one side could plex their brains out from Tier 1 all the way up to Tier 5 and then cash out after they have "won FW".

Next we'll hear about how unjust and unfair it is to plex at Tier 1 control earning only 2500 LP/plex while the other side is plexing at Tier 5 control earning 40k LP/plex. The guys at Tier 5 will have plenty of LP to dump into the system to keep it at L5 while the Tier 1 guys will continue to be royally screwed.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-07-25 06:46:22 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
The guys at Tier 5 will have plenty of LP to dump into the system to keep it at L5 while the Tier 1 guys will continue to be royally screwed.

As we learned after the Goon exploit was fixed, it is exceptionally difficult to stay at T5 warzone control for any extended length of time.

The point is that the LP Store prices are now at a fixed and reasonable level. Under the current system, at T1 control, buying anything out of the LP store is actually more expensive than simply buying it off the market. Both sides can still get resources under this system. And the incentive to gaining more control, is that LP payouts increase.

The only time anyone spent LP previously was at T5 control. Now that prices are fixed, people can buy at anytime, even if one side earns LP at a faster rate than the other side.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#4 - 2012-07-25 07:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Hidden Snake
X Gallentius wrote:
Not saying you're wrong, but where's the financial incentive to plex at Tier 1 control? The system was set up this way so that one side could plex their brains out from Tier 1 all the way up to Tier 5 and then cash out after they have "won FW".

Next we'll hear about how unjust and unfair it is to plex at Tier 1 control earning only 2500 LP/plex while the other side is plexing at Tier 5 control earning 40k LP/plex. The guys at Tier 5 will have plenty of LP to dump into the system to keep it at L5 while the Tier 1 guys will continue to be royally screwed.






sigh ... he is right ....

even staying on t4 will kinda ruin other side. ...
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-07-25 07:42:41 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
sigh ... he is right ....

No. He is wrong.

Under the current system, there is no incentive to earn any LP at all if you at T1 control, because you'll never be able to spend it. Buying anything from the LP store at T1 control is a fool's game. The ISK to LP ratio is negative at T1 control.

Under the proposal, even if at T1 control, spending that LP in the store still nets a reasonable ISK to LP ratio.

If the store prices are fixed, there's actually incentive to increase warzone control.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#6 - 2012-07-25 08:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
sigh ... he is right ....

No. He is wrong.

Under the current system, there is no incentive to earn any LP at all if you at T1 control, because you'll never be able to spend it. Buying anything from the LP store at T1 control is a fool's game. The ISK to LP ratio is negative at T1 control.

Under the proposal, even if at T1 control, spending that LP in the store still nets a reasonable ISK to LP ratio.

If the store prices are fixed, there's actually incentive to increase warzone control.


Under the new system there wouldn't be any incentive to plex at T1 control either, because you'd get **** gains. People aren't going to want to spend what little LP they earn on upgrading the tier either, since they'd only be losing precious LP with no hoping of reducing LP store prices - just making it slightly easier to grind back the LP they donated.

Personally, even if I get it back with a return on investment, I would hate to donate LP I just worked for and then have to "earn it back" in the higher tier - with nothing to actually show for it.

EDIT: Also I'd like to note - the current system is remarkably easy to coordinate. Under the new system, it would be much more difficult and unwieldy to coordinate "T5 plexing days".

Also, the new system would not help, and in fact would reinforce the current broken "positive feedback" mechanic of FW - the side that hit T4/T5 would be able to stay there perpetually because their increase LP gains could be donated to keep them at T5. You'd still have the Minmatar/Amarr situation - but in Gallente/Caldari space, too.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#7 - 2012-07-25 08:53:39 UTC
I think this idea would further imbalance the Minmatar/Amarr war zone.
It's effect on Cal/Gal would just be more Minmatar alts flying around in Black Rise.

Your militia can hold t4 and hits t5 regularly.
Seems a bit self serving to ask CCP to turn those 120min profit bursts into a full time profit stream.

80k LP for a medium - really? Minmatar could keep all the systems upgraded to T5 for days on end with that income.

No attacker could eat into your tiers in a reasonable time. I can see why you like this idea but it's not a fair solution.

One of the reasons I like being in the Cal/Gal area is that we all get to see things from both perspectives. Sometimes they are smashing us - other times we are ahead. It is a good balance most of the time.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Amymuffmuff
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#8 - 2012-07-25 09:29:37 UTC
I don't personally think that this would solve the issues we are having as many people have said. It would just allow the person who is winning to gain more LP to put back into the ihubs.

You say that it is exceptionally difficult to stay at t5 for a given length of time. We hit t5 at about 23.00 ET and by the next day when i logged in at 17.00 ET we were .8% off t5 still. Its not hard to manage it just means more LP needs throwing in and obviously people would rather spend what they have then constantly try and keep the tier up for everyone else.

I don't want this to come into effect at all and i imagine most of Iron Oxide. will agree with me (by force if needs be :P), because it would just further distance the militias. And if the Amarr do fulfil there current plan then we will just see the war swap over yet again like it has done many times before.

Every year we go through phases where one side has the active pilots and get all the fights with slowly lessening amounts of people to shoot until it reaches a point where they don't bother looking as there is none. So the other side decides to pick its self up and start to kick ass again. At some point this "should" switch around anyway, especially if Amarr do fulfil there plans. And i don't think this is the way to fix the issue though there has been a wide variety of ideas thrown around from all sides to what would make a difference, until they actually get implemented by CCP then we won't know the true effect of them anyway.

I just want to say, not just for the isk but also for the pew and everything, this has probably been my most enjoyable year in FW of the 3 years i have been in it total so far. I just hope it keeps on giving.

Editor for evenews24.com
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#9 - 2012-07-25 12:49:57 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
sigh ... he is right ....

No. He is wrong.

Under the current system, there is no incentive to earn any LP at all if you at T1 control, because you'll never be able to spend it. Buying anything from the LP store at T1 control is a fool's game. The ISK to LP ratio is negative at T1 control.

Under the proposal, even if at T1 control, spending that LP in the store still nets a reasonable ISK to LP ratio.

If the store prices are fixed, there's actually incentive to increase warzone control.



Maybe it is diferent point of view of the battlefields (on Cali/Gal front we have continuos switching of tiers), however the Minnie Amarr side is broken.
Rengerel en Distel
#10 - 2012-07-25 13:56:03 UTC
The only way i could see the OPs plan working is if you didn't get FW LP for missions, and you didn't get FW LP for sister militia plex. If you want 95% of the systems, that's fine, and you can hit T5 easily, but you can only offensively plex in the remaining 5% of the systems.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Capitol One
Blue Canary
Watch This
#11 - 2012-07-25 14:56:41 UTC
Amymuffmuff wrote:

I just want to say, not just for the isk but also for the pew and everything, this has probably been my most enjoyable year in FW of the 3 years i have been in it total so far. I just hope it keeps on giving.


Aaaaaaw, you're also my favourite :)
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#12 - 2012-07-25 15:00:49 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
The only way i could see the OPs plan working is if you didn't get FW LP for missions, and you didn't get FW LP for sister militia plex. If you want 95% of the systems, that's fine, and you can hit T5 easily, but you can only offensively plex in the remaining 5% of the systems.


With this modification, the new systems could possibly work - it would be a positive feedback loop until a "critical mass" of systems is captured, at which point it would briefly plateau and then begin to drop again.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#13 - 2012-07-25 15:05:08 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2012/07/faction-warfare-moving-warzone-scaling.html

LP should be earned at the warzone control you're currently at. You shouldn't be rewarded because you can burst warzone control to its highest level for 60-120 minutes.

This last Sunday, Minmatar pushed their warzone control to tier 5. It stayed there for approximately 120 minutes. All 523K loyalty points that I spent at T5 control, I actually earned while at T3 control. I spent 5 hours earning those LP at T3, yet spent 15 minutes spending them at T5.

That seems wrong to me. It apparently seems wrong to many people, on all sides of the faction war.

This is an idea that Hans Jagerblitzen is pushing for. I agree with it. It makes a tonne of sense. (I have no idea if it has traction with CCP though. I can't imagine it doesn't interest and intrigue them, but you never quite know with those mysterious CCP devs.)
....


I hope your wrong about hans. Just because something "seems" wrong to you is really not a reason to change a mechanic. I don't think there is anything wrong with the current tier system. And there are problems with what you are proposing.

But mainly I hope Hans keeps focus on the real issue because plexing is broken.

Tweaking award systems is stupid when the core mechanic is broken! You're trying to polish a turd.

The bulk of plexing is being done by alts in frigates with no intention to fight. I spent about 2.5 hours plexing in busy minmatar base systems with exactly 1 minmatar coming in to fight. They will just wait for me to leave and defensive plex the system when no one is there to fight. As long as this remains a alt pve farm the whole thing will remain a joke.

There are way more important proposals that the community is behind that will actually fix faction war. I know hans is going to push these proposals. I hope he doesn't lose focus on stuff that doesn't really matter like this proposal.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#14 - 2012-07-25 15:28:14 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
sigh ... he is right ....

No. He is wrong.

Under the current system, there is no incentive to earn any LP at all if you at T1 control, because you'll never be able to spend it. Buying anything from the LP store at T1 control is a fool's game. The ISK to LP ratio is negative at T1 control.

Under the proposal, even if at T1 control, spending that LP in the store still nets a reasonable ISK to LP ratio.

If the store prices are fixed, there's actually incentive to increase warzone control.



Maybe it is diferent point of view of the battlefields (on Cali/Gal front we have continuos switching of tiers), however the Minnie Amarr side is broken.



I don't think the tiers are broken. Amarr is changing strategies and the amarr/minmatar front is swinging back to amarr.

To realize this you need to look at important indicators such as the overall percent that all the systems are contested. IMO just looking at how many systems each currently owns is a bad way to look at it.

There is nothing majorly wrong with the current tier system. I think it is working well.

OP would ultimately lead to no one upgrading their space at all. The tiers go so fast that you would have to constantly be throwing lp at it and I don't think that would happen. We would still get lp for plexing but there would probably be even less interest in capturing systems. Its a step backwards.

I hope hans doesn't waste too much focus on this bad idea and sticks to the real problem. Plexing is most efficiently done by alts in frigates that have no intention to fight.

Once that changes then I think we can see faction war really work as intended.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-07-25 15:45:46 UTC
have we seen how FW works when both sides are doing a good job of fighting/plexing? Or are we still seeing the effects of goons helping Minmatar?
Rengerel en Distel
#16 - 2012-07-25 15:47:57 UTC
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
have we seen how FW works when both sides are doing a good job of fighting/plexing? Or are we still seeing the effects of goons helping Minmatar?


The Goon effect was done the day CCP fixed the exploit. All the T5 cashouts after that had nothing to do with them.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#17 - 2012-07-25 16:21:09 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
The guys at Tier 5 will have plenty of LP to dump into the system to keep it at L5 while the Tier 1 guys will continue to be royally screwed.

As we learned after the Goon exploit was fixed, it is exceptionally difficult to stay at T5 warzone control for any extended length of time.
It would be exceptionally easy to stay at T5 control if you were collecting 40k LP every 10-12 minutes.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#18 - 2012-07-25 16:47:37 UTC
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
have we seen how FW works when both sides are doing a good job of fighting/plexing? Or are we still seeing the effects of goons helping Minmatar?


The Goons had very little actually effect, other than pushing us to T5 so they could cash out on their LP. and preventing Amarr from plexing systems into vulnerability - however, the effect ended the day CCP caught it and put a stop to it.

However, as you can see, there was a deep, lasting psychological effect on the Amarr.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-07-25 16:48:52 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
have we seen how FW works when both sides are doing a good job of fighting/plexing? Or are we still seeing the effects of goons helping Minmatar?


The Goon effect was done the day CCP fixed the exploit. All the T5 cashouts after that had nothing to do with them.


What I meant was, one of the reasons the Minmatar are doing so well is because when the Goons started their fun, it benefited Minmatar. So, when everyone else started joining FW to either fight or make ISK, they joined Minmatar. I don't know 1 person that joined FW for any side other than Minmatar which furthers strengthen the Minmatar side.

IMO, trying to fix something when the balance is artificially skewed toward one side is not the answer. Hell, once the Amaar get going, we may never see T5 again
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-07-25 16:49:15 UTC
At first I really liked this idea, but the more I thought about it the more I realized that this is worse than the current system. Under the current system, the "problem" is that neither side is truly dominating but rather having a huge surge to get to Tier 5 and cash out. Under the proposed system, what we will see is that once one side starts to gain the advantage, they will have a huge LP advantage which will let them stay at higher tiers, while the otherside is LP starved. The LP starved side will not use their LP to upgrade systems because they need to spend that LP to stay flying. The other side will have so much LP that they won't be able to sell all the goods they could buy from the LP store so they can easily keep their systems upgraded.

I think I would rather see a system that had pre-inferno LP store prices at tier-2 instead of tier 3. Then scale the LP store prices between the existing tier-2 and tier-5 prices. There are other changes that can lead to more balance, such as:

-You cannot get LP for plexing a vulnerable system (no more farming)
-You cannot plex a system past 100% contested. Once its vulnerable, a single plex won by the other side will make the system no longer vulnerable.
-Systems that have been conquered by the other side that originally belonged to your faction automatically contest 0.5% per hour. This rate should increase with the total number of overall systems held (ie if you hold more systems than the other side, your conquered systems will contest faster). This automatic contesting will not happen once the system is above 40% contested (see below).
-Defensive plexing a contested system puts LP back into the IHUB just like offensive plexing can steal LP from the IHUB. This would only apply if the militia was at Tier-1 or Tier-2.
-Defensive plexing highly contested systems give LP to the player just like offensive plexing. 80-100% contested give 100% LP, 60-80% give 50% LP, 40-60% gives 25%LP, 0-40% gives no LP.

The actual mechanics for the plex itself need to be tweaked as well, but there are other threads for that. I kind of like the NPC transport ship/boarding party hacking/attacking the ihub idea.

.
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