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Initial mining barge changes are on the test server
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Haffsol
#81 - 2012-07-24 12:22:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Haffsol
Quote:
The Mack gets a base 50% bonus to mining now. (making 2 strips the equivalent of 3) Just like the retriever

will it always have the 2x bonus on ice blocks mined in a cycle and the trick that if you stop your cycle at 51% you still get the 2 blocks? I don't get who's king of ice mining and which are the new rigs you're talking about.
Sandrestal
Pakistani Taxi Drivers
#82 - 2012-07-24 12:36:22 UTC
One problem I see is can flippers will have a field day with solo miners in high sec. Using expanders you could get 17k m3 of cargo in a hulk. Now you have to be dumping ore into a jet can every cycle. Way to go ccp.
Dave stark
#83 - 2012-07-24 12:43:17 UTC
Haffsol wrote:
I'm still a bit confused about all these numbers and I'd like to try the new flying pies soon, particularly the skiff *_* but....

Quote:
the hulk will mine ~25% more


uhm.... sorry 25% more than what? It can mine 25% more than something else only if the hulk is fit for max yeld and the "something else" is fit for tank or just unfit at all. If I'm correct the hulk will have always almost 1 MLU more yeld towards the others fitted for max yeld, but the problem is that while the others will have a pretty huge tank using only their mids, the hulk will need a dcu to be "decent", so basically it sucks at mining in real space life nao :p

I'll go the skiff way, even if it need a bit more managing, eventually the mack for some epic-boredome-ops in the ice fields somewhere. Ah, about the mack (sorry never used one) what does it mean that

Quote:
  • miningAmountMultiplier: 2.0 => 1.5

    • is it referring to ice mining or what?


    25% more than other exhumers, before mlus and rigs. as soon as you fit a single mlu on the hulk it will out mine every other ship (assuming the mack doesn't have the cpu for a third mlu then it means doing more maths)

    i used to ***** about the mackinaw's weak speciality but with the size of the ore bay being greater than what i assumed it's becoming more appealing. it even has more tank than the hulk and i think the skiff level tank on a barge will be a bit overkill. so unless you're really really intent on isk/hour the mackinaw with mlus will be somewhat "flavour of the month" for many people. more so with players who don't want to devote all their attention to the tedium that is mining, or those without 6 accounts and orca support. i'm currently skilling up an orca from the power of 2 offer, however after seeing the ore bay i think 2x mackinaws will be more efficient than 1hulk + 1orca.
    Dave stark
    #84 - 2012-07-24 12:43:37 UTC
    Sandrestal wrote:
    One problem I see is can flippers will have a field day with solo miners in high sec. Using expanders you could get 17k m3 of cargo in a hulk. Now you have to be dumping ore into a jet can every cycle. Way to go ccp.


    may i direct you to the mackinaw?
    Dave stark
    #85 - 2012-07-24 12:45:31 UTC
    Haffsol wrote:
    Quote:
    The Mack gets a base 50% bonus to mining now. (making 2 strips the equivalent of 3) Just like the retriever

    will it always have the 2x bonus on ice blocks mined in a cycle and the trick that if you stop your cycle at 51% you still get the 2 blocks? I don't get who's king of ice mining and which are the new rigs you're talking about.


    mackinaw is losing the 2x bonus on ice blocks, it's now a cycle time reduction in order to make the mackinaw's 2 strips equal the hulk's 3 strips. however, the hulk gets better yield bonuses per level of exhumer than the other barges do. hence why the hulk is the new king of ice mining in terms of blocks/hour.

    at exhumer 1 there's almost no reason to fly a hulk. at exhumer 5 there's lots of reasons.
    Droxlyn
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #86 - 2012-07-24 13:02:21 UTC
    Dave stark wrote:
    mining in a hulk without fitting 2 mlus... doing it oh so wrong. worst justification ever for ******** cargo size.


    I didn't say I liked it. And if you check the other thread, you'll see I'm arguing for 11k ore hold. I was just pointing out why it wasn't a 5500 m3 ore hold.

    Drox
    Dave stark
    #87 - 2012-07-24 13:03:49 UTC
    Droxlyn wrote:
    Dave stark wrote:
    mining in a hulk without fitting 2 mlus... doing it oh so wrong. worst justification ever for ******** cargo size.


    I didn't say I liked it. And if you check the other thread, you'll see I'm arguing for 11k ore hold. I was just pointing out why it wasn't a 5500 m3 ore hold.

    Drox


    i appreciate they want to keep the cargo space to 8k, which is fine. however i'd like to see them move more space away from the ore bay back to regular cargo. keep the ore bay big enough for 1 fully maxed out cycle then the rest of the space for regular cargo because as another person pointed out; there isn't enough room for a full compliment of crystals, especially with 3 strips.
    Droxlyn
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #88 - 2012-07-24 13:16:28 UTC
    Dave stark wrote:
    i appreciate they want to keep the cargo space to 8k, which is fine. however i'd like to see them move more space away from the ore bay back to regular cargo. keep the ore bay big enough for 1 fully maxed out cycle then the rest of the space for regular cargo because as another person pointed out; there isn't enough room for a full compliment of crystals, especially with 3 strips.

    Ditto

    As it is, you can have 10+3 crystals. So, you can have crystals for 3 ores with a spare each and one more extra or crystals for 4 ores and one spare (or singleton ore).

    I wonder if they will remove my rigs for me, or if I'll have some extra room?

    I've used cargo rigs to get my cargo space over two cycles worth of yield, but the lows are used for MLU2s.

    BTW, does the Ore hold mean I can stash my mining barge in the SMB without emptying the ore out? I've managed to sneak extra PI stuff around by putting it in the PI bay of the Primae and carrying it around before.

    Drox
    Sandrestal
    Pakistani Taxi Drivers
    #89 - 2012-07-24 13:19:47 UTC
    Dave stark wrote:
    Sandrestal wrote:
    One problem I see is can flippers will have a field day with solo miners in high sec. Using expanders you could get 17k m3 of cargo in a hulk. Now you have to be dumping ore into a jet can every cycle. Way to go ccp.


    may i direct you to the mackinaw?


    Yes I know. Just that the Hulk, being way more expensive, should be doing more and doing it better than any other mining vessel.
    Dave stark
    #90 - 2012-07-24 13:21:19 UTC
    Sandrestal wrote:
    Dave stark wrote:
    Sandrestal wrote:
    One problem I see is can flippers will have a field day with solo miners in high sec. Using expanders you could get 17k m3 of cargo in a hulk. Now you have to be dumping ore into a jet can every cycle. Way to go ccp.


    may i direct you to the mackinaw?


    Yes I know. Just that the Hulk, being way more expensive, should be doing more and doing it better than any other mining vessel.


    it's a mining ship, and it is mining more and better than any other ship.
    Dave stark
    #91 - 2012-07-24 13:21:30 UTC
    Droxlyn wrote:
    Dave stark wrote:
    i appreciate they want to keep the cargo space to 8k, which is fine. however i'd like to see them move more space away from the ore bay back to regular cargo. keep the ore bay big enough for 1 fully maxed out cycle then the rest of the space for regular cargo because as another person pointed out; there isn't enough room for a full compliment of crystals, especially with 3 strips.

    Ditto

    As it is, you can have 10+3 crystals. So, you can have crystals for 3 ores with a spare each and one more extra or crystals for 4 ores and one spare (or singleton ore).

    I wonder if they will remove my rigs for me, or if I'll have some extra room?

    I've used cargo rigs to get my cargo space over two cycles worth of yield, but the lows are used for MLU2s.

    BTW, does the Ore hold mean I can stash my mining barge in the SMB without emptying the ore out? I've managed to sneak extra PI stuff around by putting it in the PI bay of the Primae and carrying it around before.

    Drox


    hmm that's a good question.
    Skorpynekomimi
    #92 - 2012-07-24 13:37:12 UTC
    Whoa. I'm buying a goddamn Mackinaw, then. My Hulk will have to be retired for fleet use, or jetcan mining in mission pockets.

    Economic PVP
    Droxlyn
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #93 - 2012-07-24 13:53:24 UTC
    Sandrestal wrote:
    Yes I know. Just that the Hulk, being way more expensive, should be doing more and doing it better than any other mining vessel.


    The Hulk will pull more ore/hour than any other mining ship. But you will have to jetcan mine or mine with hauling support.
    The Mackinaw has a built in hauler at the expense of some yield, but it is still a respectable yield on par with a cargo space fitted Hulk of today.

    The "Best" simply has choices now based on what you value most.

    Drox
    Steve Ronuken
    Fuzzwork Enterprises
    Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
    #94 - 2012-07-24 14:02:44 UTC
    Sandrestal wrote:
    Yes I know. Just that the Hulk, being way more expensive, should be doing more and doing it better than any other mining vessel.



    My (insert Tier 3 battlecruiser) is way more expensive than (insert T1 frigate), so it should be better at doing Level 1 missions.


    Woo! CSM XI!

    Fuzzwork Enterprises

    Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
    Charlie Jacobson
    #95 - 2012-07-24 14:08:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Charlie Jacobson
    Sandrestal wrote:
    Dave stark wrote:
    Sandrestal wrote:
    One problem I see is can flippers will have a field day with solo miners in high sec. Using expanders you could get 17k m3 of cargo in a hulk. Now you have to be dumping ore into a jet can every cycle. Way to go ccp.


    may i direct you to the mackinaw?


    Yes I know. Just that the Hulk, being way more expensive, should be doing more and doing it better than any other mining vessel.


    The whole point of the tiericide is to make more ships useful for different roles, rather than "the highest tier is always better". The hulk remains the king of organized mining ops with support, but other hulls get a chance to shine in different situations.

    I support James 315 and the New Order of Highsec
    Reticle
    Sight Picture
    #96 - 2012-07-24 14:42:14 UTC
    this is all fascinating and whatnot, but the real question to answer is build requirements. that will tell us what the future really holds.
    Jorma Morkkis
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #97 - 2012-07-24 15:04:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
    Sandrestal wrote:
    One problem I see is can flippers will have a field day with solo miners in high sec. Using expanders you could get 17k m3 of cargo in a hulk. Now you have to be dumping ore into a jet can every cycle. Way to go ccp.


    Then you want to use Mackinaw. If you have Exhumers trained to level 4 you get 37500 m3 ore bay. Train it to level 5 and it's even bigger.

    And yes, ore/ice goes straight into ore bay.

    Lol, 40k+ EHP without any shield rigs and implants... Shocked
    Malcanis
    Vanishing Point.
    The Initiative.
    #98 - 2012-07-24 15:11:23 UTC
    Denidil wrote:
    hulk bonuses are unchanged so (so it's mining yield is unchanged) so we can figure out all the mining rates relative to a hulk

    these calculations are based on Exhumers V/Barge V char, for mining rock not ice - this is without MLUs


    Ship - Strips * modifiers = effective # of strip mining modules

    Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
    Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15
    Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15

    Covetor - 3 strips * 1.2 (barge V) = 3.6
    Retriever - 2 strips * 1.5 (role bonus) = 3 strips
    Procurer - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) = 3 strips


    or % relative to a hulk

    Mackinaw: 79.4%
    Skiff: 79.4%

    Covetor: 90.7%
    Retriever: 75.6%
    Procurer: 75.6%



    note: there is now an ice mining and a mercoxit rig

    see thread in the test server forum


    note: more posts to come, i'm going to try to find ships with comparable stats (CPU/PG/HP) to post side-by-side

    [edit]
    note if you fit two MLU's to the exhumers you get the following effective strip miner factors

    hulk: 5
    mack/skiff: 3.99

    and ice and mercoxit "role bonuses" have been moved to rigs [see second page of thread]


    Good info.

    These changes seem superficially reasonable. The Hulk is better, but not so much better that it's a no-brainer. In fact I reckon that Macks will probably be at least as popular as Hulks after the change.

    "Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

    Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
    stoicfaux
    #99 - 2012-07-24 15:59:01 UTC
    Two words: Insurance fraud will be back for a limited time!

    Mining ship buffs -> more mining -> mineral prices fall. Ship insurance prices are updated periodically. In theory, if mineral prices drop significantly before the insurance prices update, we'll see a boom in insurance fraud.


    Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
    Dave stark
    #100 - 2012-07-24 16:00:22 UTC
    stoicfaux wrote:
    Two words: Insurance fraud will be back for a limited time!

    Mining ship buffs -> more mining -> mineral prices fall. Ship insurance prices are updated periodically. In theory, if mineral prices drop significantly before the insurance prices update, we'll see a boom in insurance fraud.




    ship mining buffs -> people mining in ships with lower yield -> oh wait....