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Initial mining barge changes are on the test server
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Pipa Porto
#341 - 2012-07-29 08:19:15 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Who would?


You.

GCC lasts for 15 mins. So you can gank 4 exhumer/hour.

4 * 20M (possibly 25M) = 80M.

And that's for just one character.


Ok, that assumes:
1. You exit GCC right next to your next target.
2. You are ganking Solo in a Meta fit Catalyst (which will not kill an untanked Hulk* in .5 space)
3. Magical loot fairies looting and salvaging for you. "Just one character"
4. You never run into a tanked Hulk that fails your gank (which means.



*530 DPS * 20s = 10,600 Damage. Untanked Hulk has 11,149 EHP vs AM. Even Cargo rigged, a Hulk survives that by 200 EHP. Only if you add expanded cargoholds do you become the prey of the solo meta fit catalyst.

Also, in a discussion of AFK income, how did this come up?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#342 - 2012-07-29 08:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Pipa Porto wrote:
Also, in a discussion of AFK income, how did this come up?


You're obviously afraid that these AFK miners make more isk/hr than you.

And btw, I meant 1 ganking character. You can have as many looting characters as you want.

After all you are using at least three accounts.
Pipa Porto
#343 - 2012-07-29 08:26:51 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Also, in a discussion of AFK income, how did this come up?


You're obviously afraid that these AFK miners make more isk/hr than you.


Where in the world did I say that? Quote and Link.

Oh, and stop lying.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#344 - 2012-07-29 08:38:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Pipa Porto wrote:
Where in the world did I say that? Quote and Link.


No link needed.

That's better than those mythical Incursion runners and AFK Dominix pilots make.

Why would you want to lose best risk free income in the hisec?
Sola Mercury
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#345 - 2012-07-29 08:58:48 UTC
Meh.. this has been funny, but now its time to ignore him.
Pipa Porto
#346 - 2012-07-29 18:28:05 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Where in the world did I say that? Quote and Link.


No link needed.

That's better than those mythical Incursion runners and AFK Dominix pilots make.

Why would you want to lose best risk free income in the hisec?


Again, your ISK estimate is laughably wrong.

It takes some time to set up a gank, so there is no way to do it 4 times an hour on one character.
You need an alt to scoop loot, so you can't profit at all with one character.
You need an alt in an orca once you go -5, so you can't gank at all with one character.
You need at least 2 meta fit Catalysts to kill an untanked Hulk, so you can't gank at all with one character in a meta fit catalyst.

Stop lying.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#347 - 2012-07-29 18:30:00 UTC
for those that don't know, the hulk is getting another 2%/level yield bonus which means even with t1 strips it's going to outmine any other ship and will fill an orca give or take 60 mins in optimal conditions.
Pipa Porto
#348 - 2012-07-29 18:41:34 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
for those that don't know, the hulk is getting another 2%/level yield bonus which means even with t1 strips it's going to outmine any other ship and will fill an orca give or take 60 mins in optimal conditions.


YAY! Cheap Minerals!

Miners realize that a higher average yield means they just have to do more hauling for the same income, right?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#349 - 2012-07-29 18:44:13 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
for those that don't know, the hulk is getting another 2%/level yield bonus which means even with t1 strips it's going to outmine any other ship and will fill an orca give or take 60 mins in optimal conditions.


YAY! Cheap Minerals!

Miners realize that a higher average yield means they just have to do more hauling for the same income, right?


you do realise what ever happens with prices; miners don't give a **** because as mineral prices goes down so does the prices of things we want to buy. you're mining and hauling for the same amount of time no matter what our minerals are worth.

isk value and isk/hour is largely irrelevant.
Pipa Porto
#350 - 2012-07-29 18:50:06 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
for those that don't know, the hulk is getting another 2%/level yield bonus which means even with t1 strips it's going to outmine any other ship and will fill an orca give or take 60 mins in optimal conditions.


YAY! Cheap Minerals!

Miners realize that a higher average yield means they just have to do more hauling for the same income, right?


you do realise what ever happens with prices; miners don't give a **** because as mineral prices goes down so does the prices of things we want to buy. you're mining and hauling for the same amount of time no matter what our minerals are worth.

isk value and isk/hour is largely irrelevant.


Except for T2, Faction, Meta, and Rigs. And plain T1 stuff doesn't drop as fast as minerals because the overhead (amortized BPO cost, factory slot cost, etc) takes a larger percentage of the purchase price at lower mineral prices (though I doubt the affect is particularly noticeable, so I'll give you T1 items as a wash for miners).

So yes, if Miners never buy T2, Faction, Meta items or any rigs, the Isk/Hr is irrelevant. What's that? A Hulk is a T2 item, you say? Really?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#351 - 2012-07-29 18:55:36 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
for those that don't know, the hulk is getting another 2%/level yield bonus which means even with t1 strips it's going to outmine any other ship and will fill an orca give or take 60 mins in optimal conditions.


YAY! Cheap Minerals!

Miners realize that a higher average yield means they just have to do more hauling for the same income, right?


you do realise what ever happens with prices; miners don't give a **** because as mineral prices goes down so does the prices of things we want to buy. you're mining and hauling for the same amount of time no matter what our minerals are worth.

isk value and isk/hour is largely irrelevant.


Except for T2, Faction, Meta, and Rigs. And plain T1 stuff doesn't drop as fast as minerals because the overhead (amortized BPO cost, factory slot cost, etc) takes a larger percentage of the purchase price at lower mineral prices (though I doubt the affect is particularly noticeable, so I'll give you T1 items as a wash for miners).

So yes, if Miners never buy T2, Faction, Meta items or any rigs, the Isk/Hr is irrelevant. What's that? A Hulk is a T2 item, you say? Really?


i brought my hulk for half the price it is currently, when minerals were half the price they are now. *shrug* i've always seen a pretty direct link between items i want and isk i earn.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#352 - 2012-07-29 19:04:01 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
for those that don't know, the hulk is getting another 2%/level yield bonus which means even with t1 strips it's going to outmine any other ship and will fill an orca give or take 60 mins in optimal conditions.



Good to know. Thx for the update

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Pipa Porto
#353 - 2012-07-29 19:07:32 UTC
Dave stark wrote:

i brought my hulk for half the price it is currently, when minerals were half the price they are now. *shrug* i've always seen a pretty direct link between items i want and isk i earn.


Keeping the Hulk still has the opportunity cost of its current market price.

Anyway, there's no real link between minerals and various items whose price is determined by factors entirely unrelated to mineral prices.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#354 - 2012-07-29 19:19:29 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

i brought my hulk for half the price it is currently, when minerals were half the price they are now. *shrug* i've always seen a pretty direct link between items i want and isk i earn.


Keeping the Hulk still has the opportunity cost of its current market price.

Anyway, there's no real link between minerals and various items whose price is determined by factors entirely unrelated to mineral prices.


i'll make more isk keeping and mining in my hulk than selling it and buying a new one when the price drops.
Pipa Porto
#355 - 2012-07-29 19:24:35 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

i brought my hulk for half the price it is currently, when minerals were half the price they are now. *shrug* i've always seen a pretty direct link between items i want and isk i earn.


Keeping the Hulk still has the opportunity cost of its current market price.

Anyway, there's no real link between minerals and various items whose price is determined by factors entirely unrelated to mineral prices.


i'll make more isk keeping and mining in my hulk than selling it and buying a new one when the price drops.


What I meant was that keeping it robs you of the opportunity to sell at the current price, not the price that you originally paid. Whether it's worth keeping it or not isn't what I was talking about.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#356 - 2012-07-29 19:32:46 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

i brought my hulk for half the price it is currently, when minerals were half the price they are now. *shrug* i've always seen a pretty direct link between items i want and isk i earn.


Keeping the Hulk still has the opportunity cost of its current market price.

Anyway, there's no real link between minerals and various items whose price is determined by factors entirely unrelated to mineral prices.


i'll make more isk keeping and mining in my hulk than selling it and buying a new one when the price drops.


What I meant was that keeping it robs you of the opportunity to sell at the current price, not the price that you originally paid. Whether it's worth keeping it or not isn't what I was talking about.


i'm a sentimental git, it's my first hulk too so even if i could sell it i wouldn't.
Pipa Porto
#357 - 2012-07-29 19:37:45 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
i'm a sentimental git, it's my first hulk too so even if i could sell it i wouldn't.


That doesn't change how opportunity cost works.

I've got a large amount of stuff that I'll never sell, but I understand that the opportunity cost is the current market value, not the price I paid for it.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying you should sell it.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#358 - 2012-07-30 08:01:47 UTC
So have anyone else noticed that a max yield Hulk (3 MSMII, 2 MLUII, +5% implant, 5 Mining drones II) along with a perfect Orca boost (or Rorqual) will yield more ore per cycle than it has cargo hold space? Meaning you will need to stagger your mining lasers and be unloading ores roughly once every minute.

This is of course if they don't make ore holds affected by expanded cargoholds / cargohold optimizations, which chances are they wont.

From my tests last night:

3x MSMII : 4538 m3/cycle
+5% implant: 226 m3/cycle
5x drones II : 562 m3/cycle (drone interfacing IV)
total 5326 m3/cycle

Orca boost + drones: 8659 m3/cycle (69.976%)

Rorqual boost + drones: 10,041 m3/cycle (98.9189%)


Using the following for boosts formulas:
Orca Link Bonus = 0.025 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.1) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * 1.5 = 0.3234375
Cycle Time = 180 * (1 - 0.3234375) = 121.781
Yield Bonus = (1 + 0.15) / ( 1 - 0.3234375) = (1 + 69.976%)
Rorqual Link Bonus = 0.025 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.1) * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * 1.5 = 0.4218750
Cycle Time = 180 * (1 - 0.4218750) = 104.062
Yield Bonus = (1 + 0.15) / ( 1 - 0.4218750) = (1 + 98.9189%)
Dave stark
#359 - 2012-07-30 08:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Styth spiting wrote:
So have anyone else noticed that a max yield Hulk (3 MSMII, 2 MLUII, +5% implant, 5 Mining drones II) along with a perfect Orca boost (or Rorqual) will yield more ore per cycle than it has cargo hold space? Meaning you will need to stagger your mining lasers and be unloading ores roughly once every minute.

This is of course if they don't make ore holds affected by expanded cargoholds / cargohold optimizations, which chances are they wont.

From my tests last night:

3x MSMII : 4538 m3/cycle
+5% implant: 226 m3/cycle
5x drones II : 562 m3/cycle (drone interfacing IV)
total 5326 m3/cycle

Orca boost + drones: 8659 m3/cycle (69.976%)

Rorqual boost + drones: 10,041 m3/cycle (98.9189%)


Using the following for boosts formulas:
Orca Link Bonus = 0.025 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.1) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * 1.5 = 0.3234375
Cycle Time = 180 * (1 - 0.3234375) = 121.781
Yield Bonus = (1 + 0.15) / ( 1 - 0.3234375) = (1 + 69.976%)
Rorqual Link Bonus = 0.025 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.1) * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * 1.5 = 0.4218750
Cycle Time = 180 * (1 - 0.4218750) = 104.062
Yield Bonus = (1 + 0.15) / ( 1 - 0.4218750) = (1 + 98.9189%)


fatal error, you're adding drones. drones do not dump all their ore at the exact same time your strip miners dump theirs.
a hulk's max yield is somewhere around 5600 depending on what you're mining and how much you lose to truncation. hence there's more than adequate space in the hulk's ore hold.

also your orca and rorq bonuses don't mean anything, they reduce cycle time not increase cycle volume. [which, devalues drones]
Herr Hammer Draken
#360 - 2012-07-30 10:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Hammer Draken
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
You should not be able to make Isk AFK without risk. The AFK Sentryboat in a PLEX ("AFK" Mission ships are nowhere near as AFK as Ice mining in the new Mack is) make less Isk/hr than a Mack, and will lose several hours of profit if he gets bumped away from his sentries.


And why is that a problem?

If I miss a cycle AFK mining ice I can only blame myself, I can't blame that Retriever pilot 80km from me.
If the player is AFK then the player is AFK. How hard it is to understand something simple as that?
Away from frigging keyboard.


I'm talking about the Dead Drones costing him replacement cash. Not missing cycles.

Again, making ISK AFK without risk is bad game design. The Sentryboat makes a pittance compared to the AFK Mack (current SISI build) and runs the risk of losing money on the project if he gets bumped in the first few hours of the session.

Yes. I know what AFK means. "AFK" Mission ships allow you to alt-tab away for a little bit, but you have to keep an eye out for spawns. They don't allow you to actually leave your computer without risk.

The current SISI Mack build costs too much to gank, so it won't be ganked by me, so sitting it in an Ice belt and wandering away for 45m at a time is perfectly viable and safe from me. That's not good game design from me. Why would CCP be interested in making miners safe from me, be good game design?


Fixed

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"