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Initial mining barge changes are on the test server
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#321 - 2012-07-29 07:26:43 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
You should not be able to make Isk AFK without risk. The AFK Sentryboat in a PLEX ("AFK" Mission ships are nowhere near as AFK as Ice mining in the new Mack is) make less Isk/hr than a Mack, and will lose several hours of profit if he gets bumped away from his sentries.


And why is that a problem?

If I miss a cycle AFK mining ice I can only blame myself, I can't blame that Retriever pilot 80km from me.
If the player is AFK then the player is AFK. How hard it is to understand something simple as that?
Away from frigging keyboard.
Pipa Porto
#322 - 2012-07-29 07:35:56 UTC
Dave stark wrote:


the skiff does have a role; it's for tanking rats in 0.0.

it just won't have a place in high sec; and why is that an issue? the hulk no longer seems to have a place outside fleets.


The Mack and Hulk can do that fine.

Especially the Mack.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#323 - 2012-07-29 07:38:38 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
The Mack and Hulk can do that fine.

Especially the Mack.


Still not an issue.

80M/hr ganking miners in hisec is an issue.
Dave stark
#324 - 2012-07-29 07:38:56 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


the skiff does have a role; it's for tanking rats in 0.0.

it just won't have a place in high sec; and why is that an issue? the hulk no longer seems to have a place outside fleets.


The Mack and Hulk can do that fine.

Especially the Mack.


and by the time you've fit it to do that, the skiff will out mine it.
Pipa Porto
#325 - 2012-07-29 07:41:29 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
You should not be able to make Isk AFK without risk. The AFK Sentryboat in a PLEX ("AFK" Mission ships are nowhere near as AFK as Ice mining in the new Mack is) make less Isk/hr than a Mack, and will lose several hours of profit if he gets bumped away from his sentries.


And why is that a problem?

If I miss a cycle AFK mining ice I can only blame myself, I can't blame that Retriever pilot 80km from me.
If the player is AFK then the player is AFK. How hard it is to understand something simple as that?
Away from frigging keyboard.


I'm talking about the Dead Drones costing him replacement cash. Not missing cycles.

Again, making ISK AFK without risk is bad game design. The Sentryboat makes a pittance compared to the AFK Mack (current SISI build) and runs the risk of losing money on the project if he gets bumped in the first few hours of the session.

Yes. I know what AFK means. "AFK" Mission ships allow you to alt-tab away for a little bit, but you have to keep an eye out for spawns. They don't allow you to actually leave your computer without risk.

The current SISI Mack build costs too much to gank, so it won't be ganked, so sitting it in an Ice belt and wandering away for 45m at a time is perfectly viable and safe. That's not good game design.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#326 - 2012-07-29 07:45:15 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
You should not be able to make Isk AFK without risk. The AFK Sentryboat in a PLEX ("AFK" Mission ships are nowhere near as AFK as Ice mining in the new Mack is) make less Isk/hr than a Mack, and will lose several hours of profit if he gets bumped away from his sentries.


And why is that a problem?

If I miss a cycle AFK mining ice I can only blame myself, I can't blame that Retriever pilot 80km from me.
If the player is AFK then the player is AFK. How hard it is to understand something simple as that?
Away from frigging keyboard.


I'm talking about the Dead Drones costing him replacement cash. Not missing cycles.

Again, making ISK AFK without risk is bad game design. The Sentryboat makes a pittance compared to the AFK Mack (current SISI build) and runs the risk of losing money on the project if he gets bumped in the first few hours of the session.

Yes. I know what AFK means. "AFK" Mission ships allow you to alt-tab away for a little bit, but you have to keep an eye out for spawns. They don't allow you to actually leave your computer without risk.

The current SISI Mack build costs too much to gank, so it won't be ganked, so sitting it in an Ice belt and wandering away for 45m at a time is perfectly viable and safe. That's not good game design.


if some one's going to gank you; they're going to gank you. being at the keyboard doesn't really make much difference. your ship will either survive, or it won't.
Pipa Porto
#327 - 2012-07-29 07:47:22 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


the skiff does have a role; it's for tanking rats in 0.0.

it just won't have a place in high sec; and why is that an issue? the hulk no longer seems to have a place outside fleets.


The Mack and Hulk can do that fine.

Especially the Mack.


and by the time you've fit it to do that, the skiff will out mine it.


The Current TQ Hulk can Tank 0.0 Rats with 2 MLUIIs. Is the new SISI Mackinaw less tankey with an active tank than the TQ Hulk? Serious question.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#328 - 2012-07-29 07:50:18 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


the skiff does have a role; it's for tanking rats in 0.0.

it just won't have a place in high sec; and why is that an issue? the hulk no longer seems to have a place outside fleets.


The Mack and Hulk can do that fine.

Especially the Mack.


and by the time you've fit it to do that, the skiff will out mine it.


The Current TQ Hulk can Tank 0.0 Rats with 2 MLUIIs. Is the new SISI Mackinaw less tankey with an active tank than the TQ Hulk? Serious question.


yeah but that requires deadspace modules etc; the skiff is there so you don't have to use a 1bn isk ship to mine in null. (yes exaggeration on the isk but you get the point)

*shrug* i haven't looked at the tank numbers on the new ships; i'm only interested in yield. in null i always had a drake in the station to deal with rats so i always went max yield.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#329 - 2012-07-29 07:51:30 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
I'm talking about the Dead Drones costing him replacement cash. Not missing cycles.

Again, making ISK AFK without risk is bad game design. The Sentryboat makes a pittance compared to the AFK Mack (current SISI build) and runs the risk of losing money on the project if he gets bumped in the first few hours of the session.

Yes. I know what AFK means. "AFK" Mission ships allow you to alt-tab away for a little bit, but you have to keep an eye out for spawns. They don't allow you to actually leave your computer without risk.

The current SISI Mack build costs too much to gank, so it won't be ganked, so sitting it in an Ice belt and wandering away for 45m at a time is perfectly viable and safe. That's not good game design.


You can't bumb AFK miners out of range of roids / ice?
How much is that Mack pilot going to make when he is 40km from nearest roid/ice?
Pipa Porto
#330 - 2012-07-29 07:52:08 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
if some one's going to gank you; they're going to gank you. being at the keyboard doesn't really make much difference. your ship will either survive, or it won't.


Wanna guess how many 40k EHP Hulks have gotten Suicide ganked in the last 6 months?

Ganking will wind down dramatically if it becomes automagically unprofitable (and, in fact, overly expensive).

If that wind down were due to miners adapting to changing dynamics, I'd say HTFU. With the current SISI stats, it will be because of CCP missing the ball on the numbers instead.

Oh, and being ATK gives you the option of being totally immune to ganks. That's a pretty big difference.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#331 - 2012-07-29 07:53:10 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


the skiff does have a role; it's for tanking rats in 0.0.

it just won't have a place in high sec; and why is that an issue? the hulk no longer seems to have a place outside fleets.


The Mack and Hulk can do that fine.

Especially the Mack.


and by the time you've fit it to do that, the skiff will out mine it.


The Current TQ Hulk can Tank 0.0 Rats with 2 MLUIIs. Is the new SISI Mackinaw less tankey with an active tank than the TQ Hulk? Serious question.


yeah but that requires deadspace modules etc; the skiff is there so you don't have to use a 1bn isk ship to mine in null. (yes exaggeration on the isk but you get the point)

*shrug* i haven't looked at the tank numbers on the new ships; i'm only interested in yield. in null i always had a drake in the station to deal with rats so i always went max yield.


~80m in Modules on a 300m Hull? Oh, the Humanity. (You can even get by with all T2/meta if you're facing the right rats).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#332 - 2012-07-29 07:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
I'm talking about the Dead Drones costing him replacement cash. Not missing cycles.

Again, making ISK AFK without risk is bad game design. The Sentryboat makes a pittance compared to the AFK Mack (current SISI build) and runs the risk of losing money on the project if he gets bumped in the first few hours of the session.

Yes. I know what AFK means. "AFK" Mission ships allow you to alt-tab away for a little bit, but you have to keep an eye out for spawns. They don't allow you to actually leave your computer without risk.

The current SISI Mack build costs too much to gank, so it won't be ganked, so sitting it in an Ice belt and wandering away for 45m at a time is perfectly viable and safe. That's not good game design.


You can't bumb AFK miners out of range of roids / ice?
How much is that Mack pilot going to make when he is 40km from nearest roid/ice?


How much Isk will he lose? The AFK Plexing boat loses ~5m ISK in drones if he gets bumped. And he doesn't make as much isk as the Mack pilot in the first place. 5m Isk represents like an hour of AFK Plexing income to get back up to even.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#333 - 2012-07-29 07:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Pipa Porto wrote:
~80m in Modules on a 300m Hull? Oh, the Humanity. (You can even get by with all T2/meta if you're facing the right rats).

last time i tried you couldn't do it with a t2 shield booster because it wasn't cap stable. then again i haven't tried for a long time. rat bounties in 0.0 are high enough that swapping to a combat ship isn't an appreciative loss in isk/hour if you get battleship spawns.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#334 - 2012-07-29 07:57:59 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
How much Isk will he lose? The AFK Plexing boat loses ~5m ISK in drones if he gets bumped. And he doesn't make as much isk as the Mack pilot in the first place. 5m Isk represents like an hour of AFK Plexing income to get back up to even.


You would still make more isk/hr than both of them. ~80M/hr.
Pipa Porto
#335 - 2012-07-29 08:02:32 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
~80m in Modules on a 300m Hull? Oh, the Humanity. (You can even get by with all T2/meta if you're facing the right rats).

last time i tried you couldn't do it without a t2 shield booster because it wasn't cap stable. then again i haven't tried for a long time. rat bounties in 0.0 are high enough that swapping to a combat ship isn't an appreciative loss in isk/hour if you get battleship spawns.


Who needs to be Cap stable? Your tank only needs to last long enough for your Valks to kill stuff. Or you can fit a small buffer (easy to do in either the SISI Mack or Hulk, rats not being known for their alpha) and warp away for a Drake. Either way, the Skiff doesn't have any usefulness in 0.0

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#336 - 2012-07-29 08:03:18 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
How much Isk will he lose? The AFK Plexing boat loses ~5m ISK in drones if he gets bumped. And he doesn't make as much isk as the Mack pilot in the first place. 5m Isk represents like an hour of AFK Plexing income to get back up to even.


You would still make more isk/hr than both of them. ~80M/hr.


Who would?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#337 - 2012-07-29 08:05:00 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
~80m in Modules on a 300m Hull? Oh, the Humanity. (You can even get by with all T2/meta if you're facing the right rats).

last time i tried you couldn't do it without a t2 shield booster because it wasn't cap stable. then again i haven't tried for a long time. rat bounties in 0.0 are high enough that swapping to a combat ship isn't an appreciative loss in isk/hour if you get battleship spawns.


Who needs to be Cap stable? Your tank only needs to last long enough for your Valks to kill stuff. Or you can fit a small buffer (easy to do in either the SISI Mack or Hulk, rats not being known for their alpha) and warp away for a Drake. Either way, the Skiff doesn't have any usefulness in 0.0


a t2 shield booster will drain your cap faster than you can kill a triple bs spawn.
Pipa Porto
#338 - 2012-07-29 08:07:14 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
~80m in Modules on a 300m Hull? Oh, the Humanity. (You can even get by with all T2/meta if you're facing the right rats).

last time i tried you couldn't do it without a t2 shield booster because it wasn't cap stable. then again i haven't tried for a long time. rat bounties in 0.0 are high enough that swapping to a combat ship isn't an appreciative loss in isk/hour if you get battleship spawns.


Who needs to be Cap stable? Your tank only needs to last long enough for your Valks to kill stuff. Or you can fit a small buffer (easy to do in either the SISI Mack or Hulk, rats not being known for their alpha) and warp away for a Drake. Either way, the Skiff doesn't have any usefulness in 0.0


a t2 shield booster will drain your cap faster than you can kill a triple bs spawn.


I just fitted up some 2 MLU Hulks with T2 SSBs, no Cap mods, and Ark crystals, and they were stable.

The trick is Passive hardeners.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#339 - 2012-07-29 08:07:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Pipa Porto wrote:
Who would?


You.

GCC lasts for 15 mins. So you can gank 4 exhumer/hour.

4 * 20M (possibly 25M) = 80M.

And that's for just one character.
Dave stark
#340 - 2012-07-29 08:07:56 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
~80m in Modules on a 300m Hull? Oh, the Humanity. (You can even get by with all T2/meta if you're facing the right rats).

last time i tried you couldn't do it without a t2 shield booster because it wasn't cap stable. then again i haven't tried for a long time. rat bounties in 0.0 are high enough that swapping to a combat ship isn't an appreciative loss in isk/hour if you get battleship spawns.


Who needs to be Cap stable? Your tank only needs to last long enough for your Valks to kill stuff. Or you can fit a small buffer (easy to do in either the SISI Mack or Hulk, rats not being known for their alpha) and warp away for a Drake. Either way, the Skiff doesn't have any usefulness in 0.0


a t2 shield booster will drain your cap faster than you can kill a triple bs spawn.


I just fitted up some 2 MLU Hulks with T2 SSBs, no Cap mods, and Ark crystals, and they were stable.

The trick is Passive hardeners.


i'll keep that in mind.