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Reflections on Scripture
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Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-08-20 14:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Azdan Amith
Tamiroth wrote:
Thank you, Captain Amith. I see your point. I must admit that your take on the matter is much more optimistic for capsuleers than I expected, especially that you said once.


Yes, my own viewpoints shifted on the matter once I was able to do further study in research on my own. I once held very similar viewpoints to the one you expressed originally but part of continual study and prayer is that your viewpoints change as your understanding deepens.

Tamiroth wrote:
Sure. But the "transfer" part? The original consciousness is not "transferred". It is merely copied by human technology to an artificial object (clone). This process of copying is inherently destructive to the original, so only one active copy can exist at the given time, but still it is, technically, a copy.


You are correct in how the process works. My use of the word transfer was to correlate the process between the Divine (the soul) and the secular (the mind). While the mind is technically copied, the soul would need to be transferred, not copied.

Tamiroth[/quote wrote:
The keyword here is "intended". Capsuleer clones are hardly an "intended host" from my point of view. I'd say that even allowing for such travesty to occur in the first place is a sin and a heavy burden on the soul of a future capsuleer that requires redemption.


Allow me to entertain your understanding a moment and see if we can assess some truth from our collective viewpoints. You assert that the soul of an individual ascends to judgment the moment the original body passes, thus every clone thereafter is a soulless construct. You then ask if the biochemical processes that make up the functions of the mind and establish "consciousness" could redeem their existence by being faithful to God and earning redemption. This assertion suggests that rather than the soul being an eternal aspect of God imparted upon his creation and unique to the individual, that it can be "created" through ascension or sustained-self awareness, as it would have to be in a clone. This also implies that humanity can create a soul through the process of cloning. Surely you can understand how this would be in conflict with the Scriptures?

We know a few things about the soul:

  • It is eternal
  • It is unique to each individual (we are identified to God by our soul, not our bodies or our minds)
  • It cannot be seen, created or manipulated by Man
  • It will face judgment before God upon the death of the individual


Focusing now on the last one. If we assert that the soul faces judgment upon the cloning of the individual and the death of the original body, then we must accept that whatever the cloned individual does after that point would have absolutely no bearing on the destiny and judgment of that soul. Essentially, we would be asserting that capsuleers can exist free of any moral or ethical obligation, free of any subservience to God and with impunity to eternal judgment. Does this seem like something God would permit, knowing his character from Scripture?

Therefore, asserting that the soul faces judgment at that time would seem to be erroneous. We've also already established that Man cannot create a soul and that a soul cannot simply "come into existence" as it is the eternal aspect of God imparted uniquely upon each individual, therefore suggesting that a soulless construct could "acquire" one also seems to be erroneous.

That leaves us with two basic options:

  • The soul ascends to a spiritual "holding place" or lingers outside of Paradise until it faces judgment upon the final death of the individual and all clones
  • The soul is transferred from one body to the next when the unique consciousness of that individual inhabits a new body, continuing this until the consciousness is completely destroyed, at which point the soul ascends to judgment.


I would engage either of these possibilities if asked to do so, as there is substantial reason to suspect either of them as truth. The overall point I am making is that there is more evidence (based on the character of God, the tone and message of Scripture and the nature of the soul) suggesting that the soul remains outside of Paradise while a capsuleer continues to live than to suggest that it faces judgment and a "new" soul can come into existence.

Tamiroth wrote:
Are, in your opinion, capsuleers as a whole a travesty and a mistake, a perverse creation of human hands and nothing more, or are they an intended device, introduced into the world by God for some greater purpose we cannot yet fathom?


God has a habit, throughout Scripture, of rectifying rampant perversions and travesties. I would suggest the latter based on my understanding of God's sovereignty and will. If, however, I am wrong and we are the former, then I suspect the hour of God's rectifying judgment is not far off.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution
Tamiroth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2012-08-20 18:09:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tamiroth
Azdan Amith wrote:
You assert that the soul of an individual ascends to judgment the moment the original body passes, thus every clone thereafter is a soulless construct. You then ask if the biochemical processes that make up the functions of the mind and establish "consciousness" could redeem their existence by being faithful to God and earning redemption. This assertion suggests that rather than the soul being an eternal aspect of God imparted upon his creation and unique to the individual, that it can be "created" through ascension or sustained-self awareness, as it would have to be in a clone. This also implies that humanity can create a soul through the process of cloning. Surely you can understand how this would be in conflict with the Scriptures?
Not the humanity, Captain Amith, no. Only God at His own will in a few select cases, as He is the Lord over all creation, not Man. But never the less, I see how rampant cloning can be translated as "humanity creating or manipulating a soul" (in fact, merely creating a set of conditions based upon which a new soul can, or cannot, be created by God himself, but anyway, since the soul is supposed to be eternal... but then we come to the question of omniscience of God and if He exists independently of what we perceive as "time"...)

Anyway, I accept this opinion as your answer to the second part of my original question.

Azdan Amith wrote:
God has a habit, throughout Scripture, of rectifying rampant perversions and travesties.
Unless they serve a purpose He imparts upon them, even if they were originally created by Man. Example: Rogue Drones. They were created by Man, yet God allows them to exist and breed further to show the Man the hubris of his science. And they are rather effective at this: every nation that considers itself civilized has banned sentient AIs because of them. Are Rogue Drones a Man-made travesty of creation? Yes. Do they serve a divine purpose and, willingly or not, cultivate the spirit of Man by reminding him of what is not to be done? Yes. Do they exist because God allows it? Yes.

There are many, many more other examples: The Sabik heresy, which serves as an ant trap for those who become victims of their own pride and depravity, like Silas Vitalia, making them easier to mark and weed out; The EoM heresy, where those who fail to see the good side of Man are trapped to commit suicide; and, last, but not least, the Minmatar Republic, which exists only because God allows it, even if it was created by combined efforts of a few rebellious slaves, Gallente and Jovians. And yet it is our task, the task of the faithful, to eradicate them all to show that we are worthy of being Chosen.

The capsuleers as a whole might be one more device to separate the wheat from the chaff. And, as such, they can exist for millennia unchanged.

Or, the end for the egger community might be at hand. And I'd say - good riddance.
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#43 - 2012-08-20 18:17:27 UTC
Tamiroth wrote:
Unless they serve a purpose He imparts upon them, even if they were originally created by Man. Example: Rogue Drones. They were created by Man, yet God allows them to exist and breed further to show the Man the hubris of his science. And they are rather effective at this: every nation that considers itself civilized has banned sentient AIs because of them. Are Rogue Drones a Man-made travesty of creation? Yes. Do they serve a divine purpose and, willingly or not, cultivate the spirit of Man by reminding him of what is not to be done? Yes. Do they exist because God allows it? Yes.


It seems you and I will have to disagree on a fundamental level then. Whereas you see capsuleers as a travesty of Man's making that God only permits to exist, I see capsuleers are still being human before God. I would urge you to consider the implications of that assessment, sister. Namely that if we truly are soulless constructs then there is no reason for morality before us, we are beyond God's eternal judgment, bereft of the soul that identifies is before God and therefore not bound by his law. Unless you wish to assert that God creates a new soul for each clone, which would seem to be counter to the uniqueness of the identity of each soul and establishes God as servant to Man for having to place souls into our creations.

Tamiroth wrote:
And yet it is our task, the task of the faithful, to eradicate them all to show that we are worthy of being Chosen.


Dear sister, our task is not to eradicate them all but to Reclaim what belongs to God. Those that oppose the will of God knowingly (such as the heresies you've mentioned) face God's judgment and we are its heralds. Those that wander apart from guidance and in rebellion borne of ignorance to God's law (such as the majority of the Minmatar in the Republic) are exactly whom we're charged with shepherding and guiding. We must not forget that our purpose is to cultivate the spirit of Man and bring all to repentance before God unto righteousness. The moment eradication becomes our focus, we have forsaken the truth of our calling.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution
Tamiroth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2012-08-20 18:50:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tamiroth
Azdan Amith wrote:
Unless you wish to assert that God creates a new soul for each clone, which would seem to be counter to the uniqueness of the identity of each soul and establishes God as servant to Man for having to place souls into our creations.
Of course not. I never assumed such nonsense.

Azdan Amith wrote:

Dear sister, our task is not to eradicate them all but to Reclaim what belongs to God. Those that oppose the will of God knowingly (such as the heresies you've mentioned) face God's judgment and we are its heralds. Those that wander apart from guidance and in rebellion borne of ignorance to God's law (such as the majority of the Minmatar in the Republic) are exactly whom we're charged with shepherding and guiding. We must not forget that our purpose is to cultivate the spirit of Man and bring all to repentance before God unto righteousness. The moment eradication becomes our focus, we have forsaken the truth of our calling.
I had in mind the eradication of rebellion, the heresies and the miscreations such as Rogue Drones, but not the eradication of each individual citizen of the Republic, of course - God save me from this. I am not a bloodthirsty lunatic willing to wipe every Minmatar from existence, as many of them wish to do to the Amarr. But elimination of the heretical government structures and reclaiming as much as possible of the planetside populations, for example, in Delve, or Metropolis - why not?

I meant that our task is to relentlessly combat heresies and miscreations despite that some of them have a distinct purpose imparted upon them by God and He allows them to exist, and this is one of the tests of our faith. And the capsuleers as a phenomenon might be just that, one more test of faith.
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-08-20 18:56:59 UTC
Excellent, forgive my misunderstanding. I meant no implication toward you.

Your conviction is admirable, as is your pursuit of understanding and righteousness. I will pray that God shines his light upon your path, that it will continue to illuminate the truth no matter how thick the darkness around you and that you will find peace in his purpose and understanding from his wisdom.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-08-24 15:14:23 UTC
The Scriptures, Prophet Anoyia 8:15 wrote:
"The word of the Lord is pure,
It is a shield for the faithful,
Brought unto men by the Angels,
As a guiding light in the darkness "


The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 wrote:
"By His light, and His will"


How easy it is for us to lose our way and replace the will of God with the will of Man!

I have been guilty of this myself and will no doubt be guilty of it again, it is a constant struggle to shield our hearts and minds from selfishness, hubris and short-sightedness.

The Prophet Anoyia reminds us that when we find ourselves uncertain of our path or questioning the decisions we should make, we should ground ourselves firmly in the Scriptures, drawing from them the lessons, wisdom and guidance locked away in them. Do my actions reflect you, oh God? Does my heart seek to please you or those around me? Are my thoughts consumed by the pursuit of you or by the pursuit of me? Does my character reflect you or does it shame you?

Your Word is both a shield and a light. A shield against the stinging arrows of those who oppose you, against the clanging swords of the enemies of the faithful, against the spears of corruption, against the darts of temptation; a light guiding us through the encroaching darkness of sin and turmoil, piercing the veil of deception and burning away the illusions built of our own desires and intelligence. As I rise each day to face the cluster before me, let me not forget to bear my shield and light before me, let me not forsake you!

Revered Gheinok understood, it is your light that outshines all others. It is your will that supersedes all others. Like the first among the Chosen, let me always follow the guiding brilliance of your light and not be distracted by the dimmer lights of self-righteousness, false teachings and outward religiosity; let me not be cowed by the darkness of opposition and the curtain of indulgence! Empty me of my own will and replace it with yours! May the light that shines from me be a small flame from your torch, may my will forever be prostrated before yours!

Help us not to forget and not to forsake, oh God. By your light alone can we pursue your will. By the revelation of your light, through Scripture, is your will laid bare before us. Perhaps it is time we return to the roots of our faith? Perhaps it is time we supplant our knowledge with yours, our wisdom with yours so that, finally, we may truly be all that you have charged us with being.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#47 - 2012-08-28 05:50:28 UTC
Azdan Amith wrote:
EDIT: There have been examples of those whom have embraced God's love and righteousness without the need for slavery, I believe this is and shall remain the preferred way of salvation. Slavery should not ever be the first or preferred method by which righteousness comes. It is most accurately a penal system for rebellion against the revelation of truth.


You have just summed up the Ammatar quite nicely. Our CEO has this in her own bio:

Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
Service is not the lowest form of human endeavor, but the highest. A crewman serves his captain, but the captain serves her entire crew. The measure of one's worth lays in how great is one's service and to whom. One who serves of their own will is not a slave, but a noble spirit, and just as the Ammatar serve the Amarr, the Amarr in turn serve God - and what greater nobility can a human soul aspire to than to be a servant of God? The Amarr understand this, and the Ammatar as well, which is why the Ammatar are not bound by crude chains of iron but rather by their shared faith with the Amaar. Thus it is destined that a day will come when all of our wayward brethren are united with us under this shared faith. A day when all the crude chains of iron are no longer needed, for from that day forward we shall all acknowledge our rightful places in God's Kingdom.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-08-28 11:51:45 UTC
Your CEO has touched brilliantly upon the heart and truth of the matter and demonstrated a level of wisdom beyond many. I commend both her and those who serve with her.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-08-31 18:46:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Azdan Amith
YC 114.08.31

Uttering


In a court of law, uttering is the act of knowingly displaying or offering something counterfeit with intent to defraud.

Your ways have you made clear, oh God. Your desire is for your creation, your righteousness upholds all that is good and worthy. Would that I could show the peoples of your creation the gain of walking in your light and casting away the chains of darkness and deceit, but alas I am bereft of sufficient expression to do so. Wildly my heart cries out to cut away the chains of bondage and slavery that hold us all captive and flay our strength and innocence, yet desperately I cling to the chains that spring from you and bind me to your purpose and your holiness.

Would that I could tear my heart from my chest and lay it bare before before my enemies, would that I could be as crystal glass before my adversaries! Could they then see the desires of my heart or the integrity of my soul? Could they then see you through me or would my heart be sullied and blackened with my sins, would my soul be stained and frosted with my wickedness?

Here I stand before you, unable to show deceit even to those I love. Here I kneel before you, seeking your guidance and your wisdom for the more I reach out to those around me the more I become burdened by the pain of my own inadequacy, my own inability to show them the way to you! Here I prostrate myself before you, crying out with a desire to be vindicated as I struggle against my own desire to placate and dilute the message you've tasked me to bear!

Oh God! Renew in me the strength of my conviction! Remind me that love speaks truth even when it's hardest! Remind me that the cost of forsaking them is beyond measure! Remind me that softening the sharpened edges of the Sword of Truth makes it unsuited to pierce the lies and deceit that we bear as shields against you! Remind me that filling the bitter tea of righteousness with honey borne of silver-laden words sweetens the taste of poison as we ingest it!

Remind me, oh God, lest I become guilty of uttering in your court and deny them their birthright and heritage with lies that lead them to naught but ruin!

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution
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