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Mining barge changes [now with feedback]
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Infinite Force
#101 - 2012-07-24 19:53:28 UTC
Unit757 wrote:
So its an issue, because you cant carry enough of every god damn crystal in the game? Cool, I can't carry every single type of hybrid charge in the game, and have sufficient quantity. The solution is extremely simple, miners must adapt to new method because of the mining changes. PVPers have had tons of changes they have to adapt to, you can deal with just one change.

Solution is simple, dedicate each ship to one type of ore. A hulk can carry 9 reserve crystals in its cargo hold, PLUS it already will have 3 loaded. A machinaw, can carry 6 reserve crystals, plus 2 pre-loaded.

If you want to claim it as a problem, don't try to justify it because the only reason your whining is because you cant carry 6 crystals for every ore in the game. Hulk = FLEET BARGE. Note the word FLEET, meaning more then one ship. Focus on one type per ship.

Why is it that everyone automatically assumes a Min / Max mentality.

No one is advocating or even suggesting that every single crystal be carried - just a subset - if you don't understand what a subset is, it's time to head back to math & statistics.

Just because "Fleet" suddenly becomes the type of ship role, does not suddenly mean that it must only be used in a certain way. If this is the case, I can't wait for all the whining when the combat ships are revamped.

Increase the cargohold or reduce crystal size. Simple.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Infinite Force
#102 - 2012-07-24 19:55:03 UTC
Unit757 wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
I love the new ore bay, finally a place for ore where it does not get mixed up with my hold of crystals, but when mining multiple ores to strip a belt/grav (especially if its a small grav where a lot of the rocks vanish after just a few cycles) you need a far bigger selection than the 500m3 hold can carry, and no I don't want to shuttle back and forth to a station/pos/orca/rorq to change up my crystals each time you suck a roid dry and need to change over.

Simply reduce the size of these crystals, can you imagine how annoying it would be for combat if you could only carry 1 or 2 types of lenses for your lasers?


I can't speak for everyone else, but I usually only carry conflag and sorch, and MAYBE a faction MF. So, it isn't to annoying

So do I, well - at least Scorch & Faction MF.

Let's increase our frequency crystal size by a factor of 50. Now let's compare apples to apples.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Dave stark
#103 - 2012-07-24 20:00:08 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
Increase the cargohold or reduce crystal size. Simple.

again, not the answer.

correctly distributing the 8k space between cargo and ore bay is the answer. the ore bay has wasted space. if you're meant to be in a fleet there's no reason to have an ore bay larger than 1 max bonused cycle. a max bonused cycle is no where near 7.5k yield. hence move some of that space back to the regular cargo hold and let us carry the crystals we need.
Stefan1978
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#104 - 2012-07-24 20:06:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Stefan1978
New Hulk: With 2xMedium Optimized Cargohold Rig (was a bit more than 100ISK !!!) we became =1.170,5m³ for crystals?

Are the DEV a Miner? Do you want to "verarschen" the Miners?

I hope it will be a rollback for the STUPID and rediculous update of Hulk.


Or give back ISK for Cargohold rig!!!

Sorry for Language, but that is not the Right Way if it will be less than 2000m³
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#105 - 2012-07-24 20:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Tippia wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Yes they did.
So in other words, it's not a problem — put the crystals in the Orca.


So in other words the patch restored the ability to *deposit* ore but non corp fleet members still cannot take anything out.

I am all for putting Hulks in a fleet role but hey, a *fleet* is a *fleet* not a *corp only* fleet.

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Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#106 - 2012-07-24 20:10:06 UTC
Arctos Canis wrote:
Hello. I have seen some people asking about ICE aspects. I did some personal calculations in TQ and SISI today just for myself. But since i noticed nobody is even mentioning it in this thread i will share it so that the people who did not do that would at least have raw impression how much worse it will be,

Curent Mach. - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost. Has an interval of 49 seconds per ice block. 49/1

After pache

Mach - 3 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 60/1
skiff - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 66/1
Hulk - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 55.33/1

So as u can see if u are still using machs u are loosing out around 22% of your profit per same time spent mining


Did you also remember to add in the Ice harvestor rig?
Unit757
North Point
#107 - 2012-07-24 20:19:08 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
So its an issue, because you cant carry enough of every god damn crystal in the game? Cool, I can't carry every single type of hybrid charge in the game, and have sufficient quantity. The solution is extremely simple, miners must adapt to new method because of the mining changes. PVPers have had tons of changes they have to adapt to, you can deal with just one change.

Solution is simple, dedicate each ship to one type of ore. A hulk can carry 9 reserve crystals in its cargo hold, PLUS it already will have 3 loaded. A machinaw, can carry 6 reserve crystals, plus 2 pre-loaded.

If you want to claim it as a problem, don't try to justify it because the only reason your whining is because you cant carry 6 crystals for every ore in the game. Hulk = FLEET BARGE. Note the word FLEET, meaning more then one ship. Focus on one type per ship.

Why is it that everyone automatically assumes a Min / Max mentality.

No one is advocating or even suggesting that every single crystal be carried - just a subset - if you don't understand what a subset is, it's time to head back to math & statistics.

Just because "Fleet" suddenly becomes the type of ship role, does not suddenly mean that it must only be used in a certain way. If this is the case, I can't wait for all the whining when the combat ships are revamped.

Increase the cargohold or reduce crystal size. Simple.


Don't you worry, I finished school a while ago, I have no need to go back ;)

And that's pretty much what the ship revamp is, it is removing tiers, and giving ships roles, much like the Condor is going to have the ROLE of a T1 interceptor.

As for the crystals, when you think about it, they could use a size reduction, especially if you compare that a large conflag crystal takes up 1m3, and a mining crystal takes up 50, it does seem a little excessive.
Infinite Force
#108 - 2012-07-24 20:22:23 UTC
Unit757 wrote:
Don't you worry, I finished school a while ago, I have no need to go back ;)

And that's pretty much what the ship revamp is, it is removing tiers, and giving ships roles, much like the Condor is going to have the ROLE of a T1 interceptor.

Yup, completely understand.

Unit757 wrote:
As for the crystals, when you think about it, they could use a size reduction, especially if you compare that a large conflag crystal takes up 1m3, and a mining crystal takes up 50, it does seem a little excessive.

And that's all that's being asked for from the mining side.

I think that the miners are liking the changes overall (and they are good initial changes) - except the cargohold / crystal size issue.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
#109 - 2012-07-24 20:28:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Arctos Canis
Soon Shin wrote:
Arctos Canis wrote:
Hello. I have seen some people asking about ICE aspects. I did some personal calculations in TQ and SISI today just for myself. But since i noticed nobody is even mentioning it in this thread i will share it so that the people who did not do that would at least have raw impression how much worse it will be,

Curent Mach. - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost. Has an interval of 49 seconds per ice block. 49/1

After pache

Mach - 3 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 51/1
skiff - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 56/1
Hulk - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 47/1



Did you also remember to add in the Ice harvestor rig?



Yes it says + ICE RIG :)
Hypercake Mix
#110 - 2012-07-24 20:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Hypercake Mix
So... what about the Drone Bays/Bandwidth?
Gimboid
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2012-07-24 21:04:19 UTC
HULK
The Hulk is a mining barge with superb mining yield.

Mining Barge skill bonus per level:
3% bonus to Strip Miner yield
7.5% bonus to all shield resistances

Exhumer skill bonus per level:
3% bonus to Strip Miner yield
4% reduction in Ice Harvester duration

MACKINAW
The Mackinaw is an exhumer with an extensive ore bay.

Mining Barge skill bonus per level:
10% bonus to ore hold capacity
7.5% bonus to all shield resistances

Exhumer skill bonus per level:
1% bonus to Strip Miner yield
1% reduction in Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Strip Miner yield
33.33% reduction in Ice Harvester Duration and capacitor use

SKIFF
The Skiff is an exhumer with exceptional defensive capabilities.

Mining Barge skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to shield hit points
7.5% bonus to all shield resistances

Exhumer skill bonus per level:
1% bonus to Strip Miner yield
1% reduction in Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonus:
200% bonus to Strip Miner yield
66.66% reduction in Ice Harvester Duration and capacitor use


I've gone over some raw math for ice mining (since there are less calculations than the ore ones and I'm more accustomed to it.).

Math
These examples are assuming, for simplicity:
- Base Cycle time of 100 Seconds
- Mining Barge/Exhumers 5
- No other modules, skills or RL examples

Ice Per Hour
Hulk = 225
Mackinaw = 196
Skiff = 127

Using the same Ultra-simplified math for mackinaws in their current build = 192.

This means that perfect skilled Mackinaw pilots will see a slight increase in yield, couple that with the new ice mining Rig (14% cycle time bonus, can only fit one), you're looking at quite a big difference, now on the other hand, if you swap that out for a Hulk, overall Ice volume should go up a huge amount.

For the ice miners, this should have little impact, whilst the amount of ice you mine will increase, the price of the refined goods will likely drop with it.

What this means for everyone else is cheaper jumping/pos fuel \o/

My Feedback
In short for ice mining, these changes will increase the ice per hour for all pilots, especially with the new rigs. and I think this is a bad idea because...

Pros
- Ice Product prices will drop, allowing people to fuel their caps and towers a little cheaper

Cons
- At the moment I struggle to visit the bathroom and get back to my PC before my cargohold fills and I miss mining cycles which is very annoying. If I'm filling up even faster, legitimate players will have even more trouble keeping up with macro/bot farmers, or we have to start peeing into a bottle.
- Change does nothing but improve macro/bot farming, whilst making it more tricky for legitimate players

Suggestion
Increase the pure base mining speed bonus on the Ice Harvester lasers by say 30%, then increase the refined material output by a proportional amount. This way you keep the pro point mentioned above, allow the Ice products price to drop slightly, but not make mining harder for legitimate players and no different for botters.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-07-24 21:27:01 UTC
500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.

This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Dave stark
#113 - 2012-07-24 21:29:37 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.

This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold.


any competent miner [in a hulk] will be in a fleet stripping belts of everything, there's at least 4 ores per belt in high sec alone, then when we get to grav sites etc that goes up. in 0.0 you WILL mine everything including the hideous spodumain in order to cycle the grav site.

so yes, you do need a full set of crystals in a hulk, pehaps not in a mack or skiff, but you do in a hulk.
Dominika Brumarova
Mission Patrol Elite High Sec
#114 - 2012-07-24 21:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominika Brumarova
Dear devs!!

Please rething the HULK concept. I definately understand, that Hulk is supossed to be a fleet ship, but with the model you have on Sisi server, its only corp fleet ship. The cargohold should be enlarged to at least 2000m withouh rigs and extenders or the T2 mining crystals volume should be lowered to aprox something around 12m/piece.

Lets hope that the voice of the community will be heard.

Fly safe

Dom

P.S. Ohh i forgot. The ore hold should be able to take two boosted cycles, because we should have a change to go to do wee wee and number 2 if needed (yes im talking about the WC).
Stefan1978
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#115 - 2012-07-24 21:38:31 UTC
I hope the DevTeam will reading here in Forum, and wait with the Changes. Hopefully go to next Day of Mining in good old Gankable Hulk with 19.000m³ INSTEAD OF Fu...ING 1170,5 m³. What´s wrong with CCP. It HURTS.
Sovai Elaaren
KABS Deep Recon Unit
#116 - 2012-07-24 22:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sovai Elaaren
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.

This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold.


Crap, I didn't remember that T2 cystals are only 50m3, I was thinking they were 100m3 for some reason.

I would agree, it's probably fine as it is.

Edit: Though I certainly wouldn't object to a buff of this. The less pointless logistics the better. After all, the point of it being a fleet ship is that you need someone to haul your ore, not your crystals.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#117 - 2012-07-24 22:27:48 UTC
Sovai Elaaren wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.

This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold.


Crap, I didn't remember that T2 cystals are only 50m3, I was thinking they were 100m3 for some reason.

I would agree, it's probably fine as it is.

Edit: Though I certainly wouldn't object to a buff of this. The less pointless logistics the better. After all, the point of it being a fleet ship is that you need someone to haul your ore, not your crystals.


Also, the point of being a weakly tanked, fleet requiring ship is to be very efficient. Hard to be very efficient if you have to fiddle with pure time sink oriented artificially created issues like lack of room for crystals.

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Holi
Duct Ales
#118 - 2012-07-24 22:45:41 UTC
I'm sorry but if you cannot do your business in under two cycles you need to L2P(ee) Blink

On another note: most barges/exhumers have a base speed of 80 or 90 m/s but the Skiff has 200. T2 fitted NanoSkiff can reach 800+ m/s with good skills. If this is intended then the Procurer's base speed should be upped to around 200 as well.
Infinite Force
#119 - 2012-07-24 22:46:40 UTC
Sovai Elaaren wrote:
Edit: Though I certainly wouldn't object to a buff of this. The less pointless logistics the better. After all, the point of it being a fleet ship is that you need someone to haul your ore, not your crystals.

^ This.

The other changes are looking good (haven't made it to SiSi yet to 'test').

The Cargohold/Crystals issue is by far, the biggest issue that I'm see at the moment.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#120 - 2012-07-24 22:51:15 UTC
Got on the test server. Overall I like the changes. I still think the Hulk deserves more cargo space to hold crystals for its 3 strips.
One thing I noticed is that the drone bays have not been modified. The Skiff, a ship intended to have good defenses, can only fly 3 light drones. CCP, maybe you should review the drone capability of all the mining ships.

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