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Mining barge changes [now with feedback]
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#501 - 2012-07-29 15:37:33 UTC
Noslen Nosilla wrote:

For those of you that are saying just use T1 strip miners and you don't need crystals...really? I don't know one person in this game that doesn't want the best modules that he or she can make or buy whether it's prop mods, survey equipment, guns or yes strip miners.

Bear


It also makes no sense that the supposed best yield ship in game has to downgrade to T1 strip miners and become worse than others....

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#502 - 2012-07-29 15:46:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Sigras wrote:
For everyone who wants more crystals in the hulk, I have to ask. What are you doing with all the ore that youre mining?

Clearly you're not in high sec because you will never have to use more than 4 types of crystals there.

So youre presumably in 0.0 and most likely mining in a grav belt.



I am clearly in hi sec and do large grav sites and partly avoid Hulkageddon.

No, I am not using Macks but 4 Hulks or 3 Hulks + Orca and no I don't keep any of them close (including close to the Orca) because they just warp in and smart bomb.

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Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#503 - 2012-07-29 15:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jake Rivers
I noticed they added crystal damage on mouse over, but if you unload the damaged crystal and reload it, it shows as undamaged, untill a new cycle ends.

Oh, and there is still no way to check that crystal for damage unless it is loaded in the strip miner.

Senex Legio
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#504 - 2012-07-29 15:56:10 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
My mining method is for max output, and I am not going to fit T1 strip miners, or use an inferior vessel just because the crystal size is silly and you think that is a great solution.

The hulks roll is for a support fleet I am fine with that, my fleets support the hulk role just fine.

I do not believe someone in that support fleet should be required to be crystal gopher, that really would be a waste of ones time.

If there is a large group of people out mining, crystal selection is even more important, as target rock choices will keep changing as people mine away. The world is not perfect, so assigning particular rocks to everyone is not a solution to poor crystal selection.

So when I am mining I should not have to worry about the pitiful selection of crystals in my cargohold. I want to bust rocks, and do so at the current levels I enjoy without going insane every time a crystal breaks and there are no spares on hand.

Resources are limited in null sec and most will burn the crystals to the end, so using new crystals every op is not an option. In any case, having to load a crystal up and check show info just to see what condition it is in is also not practical.

What did you mine in the last 4 nights? I actually have an opinion as I do mine on occasion, I cleaned out a large grav and other assorted sites. I am sure all you '3 sets of crystal people is just fine' have not even undocked in a mining vessel, or if you actually do mine either your output is horrible or you are just a cherry picker miner.

no, we're just smart enough to use logistics to BRING US THE RIGHT CRYSTALS WHEN WE NEED THEM.

You realize that the crystals last for 6 hours right?

Therefore the only limiting factor is the amount of asteroids with the 5 different types of ore as you have crystals.

This means that you either:
1. Mine a whole ton then do multiple hauler runs (you can still do this, just mine out 5 types, do some hauling, then mine out 5 more types)
2. Mine a whole ton and have someone else haul it for you (just have them bring you more crystals)
3. Mine in an actual belt where there is less than a full hauler runs worth of minerals in 5 ores (this is fail because nobody mines in actual belts in 0.0 any more)
4. Mine and haul it in your hulk (youre making way more trips than you need to anyway, just get more crystals when you need them)
5. Mine and dont haul it (youre not making any isk anyway)

Im sorry that fleet mining is now going to take come thought and organization, but its a change thats long overdue.

Remember this game rewards you for thinking about what you do before you do it, and thats the way uh huh uh huh I like it.


There is no role for someone to just sit around handing out crystals. Do you bring a hauler around to keep everyone loaded up on ammo when on a roam? No, there is no need for that, as you can bring enough ammo for the purpose.

Senex Legio
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#505 - 2012-07-29 16:10:30 UTC
As for mineral compression concerns, just make the crystals un-reprocessable.

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Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#506 - 2012-07-29 16:13:30 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
As for mineral compression concerns, just make the crystals un-reprocessable.


Is that the reason for the size? I can't imagine building T2 crystals for just compression purposes, but it could be a valid reason, and a good solution to the problem.

Senex Legio
Dave stark
#507 - 2012-07-29 16:35:44 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage.



Have you EVER used a mining ship in your life?


on a daily basis. there's a difference between having to micromanage things and mining efficiently.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#508 - 2012-07-29 16:37:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Dave stark wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage.



Have you EVER used a mining ship in your life?


on a daily basis. there's a difference between having to micromanage things and mining efficiently.


So, when you get a roid with 50m3 left do you really let the cycle finish and roid pop before you start a new one?

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Dave stark
#509 - 2012-07-29 16:40:29 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
considering i'm one of the 3 people who in this thread worked out the new ice mining yields... try again

my point; if you missed it, which i'm sure you did... is that when i present a number i back it up with calculations rather than just making it appear out of thin air.


Theorycrafters are worse than practitioneers. The latter live day by day the horrible garbage the former "calculated" without knowing the practical consequences.


it's mining ice... it's not like an ice roid will pop before you finish a cycle, it's not like you have to cut cycles short, ice mining is subject to less disruption than any other activity i can think of other than ship spinning.

if we were talking about jetcan mining mercoxit in hostile 0.0 space you might have a point. however as far as ice goes you can literally it f1, f2, and walk away for 30 mins and come back to a full mackinaw with very little chance that some one has bumped you out of range of the ice roid.
Dave stark
#510 - 2012-07-29 16:41:58 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage.



Have you EVER used a mining ship in your life?


on a daily basis. there's a difference between having to micromanage things and mining efficiently.


So, when you get a roid with 50m3 left do you really let the cycle finish and roid pop before you start a new one?


that depends if i know if it's got 50m3 left in it, i don't always have a survey scanner on my ship.

and because i'm somewhat ocd i'd rather leave the 50m3 and start on a new roid to keep my lasers cycling at the same time.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#511 - 2012-07-29 16:45:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jake Rivers
Dave stark wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage.



Have you EVER used a mining ship in your life?


on a daily basis. there's a difference between having to micromanage things and mining efficiently.


So, when you get a roid with 50m3 left do you really let the cycle finish and roid pop before you start a new one?


that depends if i know if it's got 50m3 left in it, i don't always have a survey scanner on my ship.

and because i'm somewhat ocd i'd rather leave the 50m3 and start on a new roid to keep my lasers cycling at the same time.


If I notice a rock coming to an end I wait till I figure the cycle has the last of it and put them onto a new one, or just put drones on the rock to finish it.

Quite often though, the scanners will not reach as far as the lasers can go, so you can't really tell when a rock is near its end.

Senex Legio
Dave stark
#512 - 2012-07-29 17:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Noslen Nosilla wrote:

For those of you that are saying just use T1 strip miners and you don't need crystals...really? I don't know one person in this game that doesn't want the best modules that he or she can make or buy whether it's prop mods, survey equipment, guns or yes strip miners.

Bear


It also makes no sense that the supposed best yield ship in game has to downgrade to T1 strip miners and become worse than others....


actually with the changes that have just been posted in the 90 page thread in general discussion even a t1 strip hulk will outmine anything packing t2 crystals.

this is a good change, now it means we A) can save on crystals without sacrificing yield or having to use another ship and B) can absolutely **** asteroids when we do bother with t2 strips and have the support to reload them.
i also think this bonus in yield can justify the extra logistics now.

a bit of context on that; a fully bonused maxed yield hulk with a 5% yield implant is pulling in just over 6k/cycle. [assuming i haven't done some thing dumb like hit the wrong excel cell again]
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#513 - 2012-07-29 17:34:51 UTC
Dave stark wrote:


it's mining ice... it's not like an ice roid will pop before you finish a cycle, it's not like you have to cut cycles short, ice mining is subject to less disruption than any other activity i can think of other than ship spinning.

if we were talking about jetcan mining mercoxit in hostile 0.0 space you might have a point. however as far as ice goes you can literally it f1, f2, and walk away for 30 mins and come back to a full mackinaw with very little chance that some one has bumped you out of range of the ice roid.


Ice miners bumping full fledged operation including IPO

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Dave stark
#514 - 2012-07-29 17:36:54 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


it's mining ice... it's not like an ice roid will pop before you finish a cycle, it's not like you have to cut cycles short, ice mining is subject to less disruption than any other activity i can think of other than ship spinning.

if we were talking about jetcan mining mercoxit in hostile 0.0 space you might have a point. however as far as ice goes you can literally it f1, f2, and walk away for 30 mins and come back to a full mackinaw with very little chance that some one has bumped you out of range of the ice roid.


Ice miners bumping full fledged operation including IPO



they can't be everywhere at once, and not everywhere is empire space :)
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#515 - 2012-07-29 20:09:27 UTC
I can live with (and actually like) all the proposed mining ship changes except one: Mackinaw :: max targets = 4. This was fine when it was a dedicated ice miner.

Now, it's feels like a handicap in actual usage tests I have been doing on SiSi.

Can you please adjust the Mack so "max targets = 5" ? (6 would better.)
Dave stark
#516 - 2012-07-29 20:11:28 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
I can live with (and actually like) all the proposed mining ship changes except one: Mackinaw :: max targets = 4. This was fine when it was a dedicated ice miner.

Now, it's feels like a handicap in actual usage tests I have been doing on SiSi.

Can you please adjust the Mack so "max targets = 5" ? (6 would better.)


max targets is double what it can shoot at; same as the hulk in that regard.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#517 - 2012-07-29 20:13:27 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Urgg Boolean wrote:
I can live with (and actually like) all the proposed mining ship changes except one: Mackinaw :: max targets = 4. This was fine when it was a dedicated ice miner.

Now, it's feels like a handicap in actual usage tests I have been doing on SiSi.

Can you please adjust the Mack so "max targets = 5" ? (6 would better.)


max targets is double what it can shoot at; same as the hulk in that regard.


So those with 1 laser will only be able to target 2 roids? It's really annoying and wasted time inducing.

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Dave stark
#518 - 2012-07-29 20:19:05 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Urgg Boolean wrote:
I can live with (and actually like) all the proposed mining ship changes except one: Mackinaw :: max targets = 4. This was fine when it was a dedicated ice miner.

Now, it's feels like a handicap in actual usage tests I have been doing on SiSi.

Can you please adjust the Mack so "max targets = 5" ? (6 would better.)


max targets is double what it can shoot at; same as the hulk in that regard.


So those with 1 laser will only be able to target 2 roids? It's really annoying and wasted time inducing.


i didn't say it wasn't annoying. i was just saying it was consistent.
Herr Hammer Draken
#519 - 2012-07-30 05:34:23 UTC
Unit757 wrote:
ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk.

I will repeat myself again, the vast majority of PVP ships CANNOT carry every single type of ammo they have avalible to them, with the exception of amarr ships.

Quit you b-tching. Your just making yourselves look like idiots. CCP is giving you (and me, I guess, because I'll probably mine on the side when drunk), a god damn mining ship that can tank better then the vast majority of Heavy cruisers and battlecruisers I have ever flown! AND you still want more? Accept it, the hulk IS NOT suited for what you all want to do, use the one that is.

And on top of all this, I hope to god that everyone here who is asking for more crystal space is deep in null-sec. Because if your in high sec, I hope the sentry guns malfunction and pop you on the undock, because you only have 4 ore types in HS, and each ship can hold enough for that.

Quote:
Please change the Hulks Exhumer 3% ore yield bonus into a 3% reduced cycle time and capacitor use (like how it works with ice mining). Without this change for many detailed reasons, using the Hulk over a Mackinaw does not make a whole lot of sense.

Yes that includes its described role too!

You have orca bonuses for that, use it. Hulks bonuses are fine.


In response to this, it needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Sigras
Conglomo
#520 - 2012-07-30 06:04:49 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time.

This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game.

In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it.

Would you like me to show you the math?