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Mining barge changes [now with feedback]
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Infinite Force
#181 - 2012-07-25 19:27:11 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
This why in null sec often Multi box miners often use miner Is , as we move the max yield we specialize in the crystals we use we will require team work to plow through a field as a group.

I am looking forward to the changes except the level bonus for the skiff and Mach, ie move away from yield increase of 1 percent to another aspect of the ship and have a increase per level that matters

I understand multi-boxing as I run 6-9 accounts myself. I have lived & mined in Null, Low, High and WH space - in both large (30+) and small (<10) fleets as well as solo.

These changes should be based around a fully T2 fitted Barge. If you want to use Miner I's after that, then you certainly can - but that does not mean that because you decide to use Miner I's, other must as well.

Remember that crystal sizes are based on the ORIGINAL implementation of the Barges & Exhumers.

CCP doesn't want the barges to be used as haulers anymore (I never did out side of "mining" stuff) and by implementing specialized Ore holds and significantly reducing the cargoholds, they've accomplished that.

The bottom line is still that the mining crystals (both T1 and T2) are out of whack with these new changes as they currently stand.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#182 - 2012-07-25 19:31:16 UTC
Arctos Canis wrote:
Denidil wrote:
remember the new rigs

the rigs are in sisi and they were included during test


wasn't specifically speaking to you :P

Arctos Canis wrote:

new skiff cycle time is 65.83 seconds 1block
new mack cycle time is 119.82s 2 blocks
new hulk cycle time is 166.3s 3 blocks



skiff - 54/hour
mack - 60/hour
hulk - 64/hour

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Infinite Force
#183 - 2012-07-25 19:31:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinite Force
Draconyx wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Not bad BUT

Hulk and Covetor Ore holds need to be increased so that 2 cycles can be done before you have to empty.

Here is the break down using only T1 strips, T2 Upgrades, 3% implant and without fleet bonuses.

Cycles Before Full (CBF)

Hulk (4096.59 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF
Covetor (3717.12 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF
Mackinaw (3545.20 m^3/cycle) = 10 CBF
Retriever ( 3376.34 m^3/cycle) = 8 CBF
Skiff ( 3252.48 m^3/cycle) = 5 CBF
Procure (3097.60 m^3/cycle)r = 4 CBF

The ore hold should be based on Fleet bonuses + T2 + max yield implants.

PS - Option if you don't want to add it in for solo miners then how about adding in the bonus to one of the Command links so that you have to be in a fleet with links to get it. That works as well.


The hulk is not mean't to hold more then one cycle, it is a transition point for ore between space, and the orca/rorq. If you want a ship to hold more then one cycle, use a machinaw or skiff.


One cycle, I would like to see where that is stated.
I am not asking for anything even remotely close to a mack or skiff, but if you have ever done any mining just adding one more cycle can make a big difference.
Examples when it will come in handy - partial cycle, waiting on Hauler, resinking lasers over time.
And yes it is even more important when you have a hauler and someone running links cause your cycle time goes down which means less time.


This.

Ideally, every hull would start with a base Ore hold and then it would be bonused up from that based on role (like what the Ret & Mack's see).

I don't mind the changes that turn everything upside-down, but whether or not you choose to mine solo or in a fleet, 2 cycles at max yield / bonuses should be the baseline for the Ore holds.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Dave stark
#184 - 2012-07-25 19:36:05 UTC
Arctos Canis wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Won't the Skiff mine Ice better than the Mack now?

Skiff gets 3/cycle by the bonuses, Mack only gets 2/cycle.

I'll check soon, but I need to resinstall Sisi, so maybe someone who's already on can check.


no it's identical.


Really happy that more people have started looking in to this :) cuz there will be a lot more people who will come to same conclusion then.
Buzzy everything maxed out - numbers are like this :)

new skiff cycle time is 65.83 seconds 1block
new mack cycle time is 119.82s 2 blocks
new hulk cycle time is 166.3s 3 blocks


what are you using to get those numbers.
using max skill, max yield fits, with max orca bonuses and a 3% yeti implant i'm getting the following;

old mack = 191 second cycle, 75 blocks/hour
new mack = 103, 69
hulk = 143, 75
skiff = 56, 63

as we see, the old mack is better than the new mack, but it's still in line with the hulk. (if we don't round and truncate the new hulk is worse but by so little that nobody cares)
Unit757
North Point
#185 - 2012-07-25 19:38:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Unit757
Draconyx wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Not bad BUT

Hulk and Covetor Ore holds need to be increased so that 2 cycles can be done before you have to empty.

Here is the break down using only T1 strips, T2 Upgrades, 3% implant and without fleet bonuses.

Cycles Before Full (CBF)

Hulk (4096.59 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF
Covetor (3717.12 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF
Mackinaw (3545.20 m^3/cycle) = 10 CBF
Retriever ( 3376.34 m^3/cycle) = 8 CBF
Skiff ( 3252.48 m^3/cycle) = 5 CBF
Procure (3097.60 m^3/cycle)r = 4 CBF

The ore hold should be based on Fleet bonuses + T2 + max yield implants.

PS - Option if you don't want to add it in for solo miners then how about adding in the bonus to one of the Command links so that you have to be in a fleet with links to get it. That works as well.


The hulk is not mean't to hold more then one cycle, it is a transition point for ore between space, and the orca/rorq. If you want a ship to hold more then one cycle, use a machinaw or skiff.


One cycle, I would like to see where that is stated.
I am not asking for anything even remotely close to a mack or skiff, but if you have ever done any mining just adding one more cycle can make a big difference.
Examples when it will come in handy - partial cycle, waiting on Hauler, resinking lasers over time.
And yes it is even more important when you have a hauler and someone running links cause your cycle time goes down which means less time.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1481903#post1481903

"WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs won’t affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size. "

Directly from CCP. If you want something with a bigger hold, jump in a machinaw or skiff, otherwise, park your ass next to an orca, and start unloading. It is NOT a solo ship, AT ALL.

Quote:

I don't mind the changes that turn everything upside-down, but whether or not you choose to mine solo or in a fleet, 2 cycles at max yield / bonuses should be the baseline for the Ore holds.


Why is it so hard for people to understand that the hulk IS NOT MEANT TO MINE SOLO. If the machinaw had a tiny ore bay, I'd understand your concern, but as of yet, nobody seems to have clued in to the fact that the hulk is no longer THE best all round ship. It has a role, and that's fleet yield. The mackinaw has a role, and that's solo efficiency.
Dave stark
#186 - 2012-07-25 19:40:49 UTC
forum fail.
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
#187 - 2012-07-25 19:58:15 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Arctos Canis wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Won't the Skiff mine Ice better than the Mack now?

Skiff gets 3/cycle by the bonuses, Mack only gets 2/cycle.

I'll check soon, but I need to resinstall Sisi, so maybe someone who's already on can check.


no it's identical.


Really happy that more people have started looking in to this :) cuz there will be a lot more people who will come to same conclusion then.
Buzzy everything maxed out - numbers are like this :)

new skiff cycle time is 65.83 seconds 1block
new mack cycle time is 119.82s 2 blocks
new hulk cycle time is 166.3s 3 blocks


what are you using to get those numbers.
using max skill, max yield fits, with max orca bonuses and a 3% yeti implant i'm getting the following;

old mack = 191 second cycle, 75 blocks/hour
new mack = 103, 69
hulk = 143, 75
skiff = 56, 63

as we see, the old mack is better than the new mack, but it's still in line with the hulk. (if we don't round and truncate the new hulk is worse but by so little that nobody cares)

I don't understand how your numbers are lower then mine :) if we bouth use max skill,fits,boosts . that's strange
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
#188 - 2012-07-25 20:05:37 UTC
Unit757 wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Not bad BUT

Hulk and Covetor Ore holds need to be increased so that 2 cycles can be done before you have to empty.

Here is the break down using only T1 strips, T2 Upgrades, 3% implant and without fleet bonuses.

Cycles Before Full (CBF)

Hulk (4096.59 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF
Covetor (3717.12 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF
Mackinaw (3545.20 m^3/cycle) = 10 CBF
Retriever ( 3376.34 m^3/cycle) = 8 CBF
Skiff ( 3252.48 m^3/cycle) = 5 CBF
Procure (3097.60 m^3/cycle)r = 4 CBF

The ore hold should be based on Fleet bonuses + T2 + max yield implants.

PS - Option if you don't want to add it in for solo miners then how about adding in the bonus to one of the Command links so that you have to be in a fleet with links to get it. That works as well.


The hulk is not mean't to hold more then one cycle, it is a transition point for ore between space, and the orca/rorq. If you want a ship to hold more then one cycle, use a machinaw or skiff.


One cycle, I would like to see where that is stated.
I am not asking for anything even remotely close to a mack or skiff, but if you have ever done any mining just adding one more cycle can make a big difference.
Examples when it will come in handy - partial cycle, waiting on Hauler, resinking lasers over time.
And yes it is even more important when you have a hauler and someone running links cause your cycle time goes down which means less time.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1481903#post1481903

"WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs won’t affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size. "

Directly from CCP. If you want something with a bigger hold, jump in a machinaw or skiff, otherwise, park your ass next to an orca, and start unloading. It is NOT a solo ship, AT ALL.

Quote:

I don't mind the changes that turn everything upside-down, but whether or not you choose to mine solo or in a fleet, 2 cycles at max yield / bonuses should be the baseline for the Ore holds.


Why is it so hard for people to understand that the hulk IS NOT MEANT TO MINE SOLO. If the machinaw had a tiny ore bay, I'd understand your concern, but as of yet, nobody seems to have clued in to the fact that the hulk is no longer THE best all round ship. It has a role, and that's fleet yield. The mackinaw has a role, and that's solo efficiency.


funny quote from posted thread.

"WILL EXHUMER SHIP SPECIALIZATIONS BE AFFECTED BY SUCH CHANGES? Most likely not, except maybe for the Skiff as mentioned above. "

and yet mackinaw lost its primary ice mining role :)
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#189 - 2012-07-25 20:24:24 UTC
Arctos Canis wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Won't the Skiff mine Ice better than the Mack now?

Skiff gets 3/cycle by the bonuses, Mack only gets 2/cycle.

I'll check soon, but I need to resinstall Sisi, so maybe someone who's already on can check.


no it's identical.


Really happy that more people have started looking in to this :) cuz there will be a lot more people who will come to same conclusion then.
Buzzy everything maxed out - numbers are like this :)

new skiff cycle time is 65.83 seconds 1block
new mack cycle time is 119.82s 2 blocks
new hulk cycle time is 166.3s 3 blocks

OK, so the 200% bonus only applies to Strip Miners not to Ice Miners (or did they take that off already and I missed it?)

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Infinite Force
#190 - 2012-07-25 20:28:48 UTC
Unit757 wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1481903#post1481903

"WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs won’t affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size. "

Directly from CCP. If you want something with a bigger hold, jump in a machinaw or skiff, otherwise, park your ass next to an orca, and start unloading. It is NOT a solo ship, AT ALL.

Quote:

I don't mind the changes that turn everything upside-down, but whether or not you choose to mine solo or in a fleet, 2 cycles at max yield / bonuses should be the baseline for the Ore holds.


Why is it so hard for people to understand that the hulk IS NOT MEANT TO MINE SOLO. If the machinaw had a tiny ore bay, I'd understand your concern, but as of yet, nobody seems to have clued in to the fact that the hulk is no longer THE best all round ship. It has a role, and that's fleet yield. The mackinaw has a role, and that's solo efficiency.

LOL. Fail. Not once have I said, or implied, that the Hulk was meant as a solo mining vessel, nor did I say or imply that I want it to mine solo (that's the Mack's new role).


Quote:
That means cargo expanders and rigs won’t affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently.

With the current implementation of the Hulk, you can sit for up to 15 minutes and not need to move before unloading.

Just because it's suddenly classified now as a "FLEET SHIP", doesn't suddenly mean that unloading every 3 - 4 minutes (2 fully boosted cycles) somehow breaks the concept of "fleet mining".

Open your eyes and stop thinking that all of us are "hulk" only people (start thinking outside that lame excuse box). I use all the Exhumers fairly equally, and I've said numerous times that ALL the cargoholds need to be adjusted and ALL the Ore holds should be adequate to the specialized task at hand - which, in my opinion - should be 2 fully cycles as a baseline.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#191 - 2012-07-25 20:29:18 UTC
Buzzy Warstl
OK, so the 200% bonus only applies to Strip Miners not to Ice Miners (or did they take that off already and I missed it?)[/quote wrote:


here is the text from the mack

[quote]
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Strip Miner yield
33.33% reduction in Ice Harvester Duration and capacitor use

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Ichitura
Incongruous Creations Limited
#192 - 2012-07-25 21:14:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ichitura
Will we get rig removal coupons for all the barges/exhumers that may need to be re-rigged ?

Also, one thing that drove me nuts with the old Mackinaw was that even with an 8000m3 hold one miner would always stop after the second cycle instead of filling the hold, continuing and failing if you failed to empty it by next cycle. I assume this will get worse on the Hulk with a non expandable bay. Ah like mining in a Rokh :)
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#193 - 2012-07-25 21:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Mining gang links on sisi appear to be messed up; when fleeting with an orca for some reason, T1 and T2 are giving me the same boost. Once I remove booster I can't seem to get it back without dropping the fleet and reforming. The range boost doesn't return either.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Lili Lu
#194 - 2012-07-25 21:40:46 UTC
Ichitura wrote:
Will we get rig removal coupons for all the barges/exhumers that may need to be re-rigged ?

Also, one thing that drove me nuts with the old Mackinaw was that even with an 8000m3 hold one miner would always stop after the second cycle instead of filling the hold, continuing and failing if you failed to empty it by next cycle. I assume this will get worse on the Hulk with a non expandable bay. Ah like mining in a Rokh :)

Not likely. You can't seriously expect this. They change ships all the time. To have to process peoples rigs as well would probably be a bear. Regardless, medium rigs are not that much anyway. And if you used a tech II rig on your exhumer well lessson learned.

You have to stagger your lasers. The new ore holds on the skiff and mackinaw are both quite a bit larger than the old cargohold with expanders and rigs. So this should be less of an issue if you keep an eye on it.

Not sure if this would be the best thread to ask, but what is happening to the old skiff ability to mine mercoxit without an explosion?
Lili Lu
#195 - 2012-07-25 21:41:53 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Mining gang links on sisi appear to be messed up; when fleeting with an orca for some reason, T1 and T2 are giving me the same boost. Once I remove booster I can't seem to get it back without dropping the fleet and reforming. The range boost doesn't return either.

I also wonder whether they are receiving implant bonuses too.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#196 - 2012-07-25 21:41:59 UTC
Has it occurred to anyone whining that they can't hold more than three sets of crystals that maybe its intended that way? Perhaps CCP thought "Lets do it this way and if they want the convenience of more crystals, they can compromise their tank by rigging for cargo, or compromise their yield by using lows for cargo expanders."

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#197 - 2012-07-25 21:46:37 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:


Not sure if this would be the best thread to ask, but what is happening to the old skiff ability to mine mercoxit without an explosion?


it was a useless bonus - strip miners outrange the gas cloud

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Droxlyn
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#198 - 2012-07-25 21:49:56 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Has it occurred to anyone whining that they can't hold more than three sets of crystals that maybe its intended that way? Perhaps CCP thought "Lets do it this way and if they want the convenience of more crystals, they can compromise their tank by rigging for cargo, or compromise their yield by using lows for cargo expanders."


Or simply downgrade to T1 strips that don't use crystals? (No MLUs T2s: 4626.07, 2MLUs T1s: 4678.94)

I just hate the masochistic tendencies of CCP of throwing in something annoying just to have something annoying. At least the other changes show a great deal of love. I just wish they would find a little more love.

Drox
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#199 - 2012-07-25 22:34:57 UTC
Droxlyn wrote:
corestwo wrote:
Has it occurred to anyone whining that they can't hold more than three sets of crystals that maybe its intended that way? Perhaps CCP thought "Lets do it this way and if they want the convenience of more crystals, they can compromise their tank by rigging for cargo, or compromise their yield by using lows for cargo expanders."


Or simply downgrade to T1 strips that don't use crystals? (No MLUs T2s: 4626.07, 2MLUs T1s: 4678.94)

I just hate the masochistic tendencies of CCP of throwing in something annoying just to have something annoying. At least the other changes show a great deal of love. I just wish they would find a little more love.

Drox


Well, I'm sure that they hate the tendency for players (and honestly this goes for players of all types, not just miners) to have everything exactly the way they want it. Blink

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#200 - 2012-07-25 22:39:32 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1481903#post1481903

"WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs won’t affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size. "

Directly from CCP. If you want something with a bigger hold, jump in a machinaw or skiff, otherwise, park your ass next to an orca, and start unloading. It is NOT a solo ship, AT ALL.

Quote:

I don't mind the changes that turn everything upside-down, but whether or not you choose to mine solo or in a fleet, 2 cycles at max yield / bonuses should be the baseline for the Ore holds.


Why is it so hard for people to understand that the hulk IS NOT MEANT TO MINE SOLO. If the machinaw had a tiny ore bay, I'd understand your concern, but as of yet, nobody seems to have clued in to the fact that the hulk is no longer THE best all round ship. It has a role, and that's fleet yield. The mackinaw has a role, and that's solo efficiency.

LOL. Fail. Not once have I said, or implied, that the Hulk was meant as a solo mining vessel, nor did I say or imply that I want it to mine solo (that's the Mack's new role).


Quote:
That means cargo expanders and rigs won’t affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently.

With the current implementation of the Hulk, you can sit for up to 15 minutes and not need to move before unloading.

Just because it's suddenly classified now as a "FLEET SHIP", doesn't suddenly mean that unloading every 3 - 4 minutes (2 fully boosted cycles) somehow breaks the concept of "fleet mining".

Open your eyes and stop thinking that all of us are "hulk" only people (start thinking outside that lame excuse box). I use all the Exhumers fairly equally, and I've said numerous times that ALL the cargoholds need to be adjusted and ALL the Ore holds should be adequate to the specialized task at hand - which, in my opinion - should be 2 fully cycles as a baseline.


This I only get one cycle off my hulks right now cause everything is either taken up by yield increases or tank.
And I fleet mine I don't solo mine so when I say it would be really nice to get 2 cycles out of a Hulk I know cause guess what I deal with the 1 cycle thing every day for I don't no how many years in high-sec and null.

This will probably be the one and only change we will ever see to these ships so ask for everything you want cause I seriously doubt there will be a second round.