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Pods- should they escape or not?
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Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-07-21 15:03:11 UTC
Right now the mechanics around pods is kind of hazy. With 0 align time it ought to be impossible to catch one without area of effect modules or a stupid pilot, and if you spam warp upon blowing up this is the case, however lag sometimes occurs when entering the pod allowing a short time for it to be locked.

Why is this the case? If the lag is intentional then it should be a fixed timer instead of the current lag which is easily bypassed. If the lag isn't meant to affect the game then there should be an invulnerability timer on leaving your ship, as there is with undocking and coming out of warp.

The way I see it there are 3 options for clarifying this mechanic

1. Invulnerability timer. To pod someone you must use bombs or interdiction spheres, no more need to spam warp to get away with your implants

2. Vulnerability timer. Could be about 5 seconds, this gives everyone the opportunity to kill a pod (and his sec status) provided a high enough scan resolution

3. If your ship is destroyed with you in it, you get the vulnerability timer. If you eject you get the invulnerability timer. This is pretty much like the current system only the rules are much clearer, and you don't have to click your mouse like a maniac. This could also potentially allow smart pirates to actually capture ships for profit rather than just blowing them up, which is something I'd love to see more often

So, which is it to be?
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#2 - 2012-07-21 15:50:39 UTC
Its all about whose click happens (and is received by the server) first.

If the pod killer has an insta lock (Arazu I think is good at that, might be the other recon), and clicks before you and/or the server receives his command first (with pre activating their scram/disruptor) you are a goner.

Or smarties... they can get you too.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#3 - 2012-07-21 16:24:10 UTC
I'd say the system is working as intended. If you're smart and quick, you can get your pod away. But if the enemy is smarter/better prepared, they can get your pod.

As to the lag, lag is lag. Giving people an (in)vulnerability timer just because there might be some lag is kind of ridiculous. This is an online game, you take the risk of lag at any given time, pod lag isn't any worse than lag while you're trying to activate your guns and hardeners.
Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-07-21 17:29:08 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Its all about whose click happens (and is received by the server) first.

If the pod killer has an insta lock (Arazu I think is good at that, might be the other recon), and clicks before you and/or the server receives his command first (with pre activating their scram/disruptor) you are a goner.

Or smarties... they can get you too.


Smartbombs, bubbles, sebo'd recons (really?), these are all specialised equipment available to only a few ships. If you're fine with those being required for pod killing then I guess you should go for the first option.

Quote:
Giving people an (in)vulnerability timer just because there might be some lag is kind of ridiculous.


But that's exactly what invulnerability timers are for. When you enter a new environment or a new ship, your client has to load some stuff others do not, and that might take a few seconds depending on your computer. The invulnerability timer is there to prevent you from being blown up in that time with no chance to react. Invulnerability lasts usually about 10 seconds and is switched off as soon as you do something, so there is no way to exploit it
You say the mechanic is working as intended, but in the current system the best option is to spam warp in the few seconds before you die. So you are saying spamming buttons is an intended part of eve online?
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-07-21 18:01:23 UTC
Uris Vitgar wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Its all about whose click happens (and is received by the server) first.

If the pod killer has an insta lock (Arazu I think is good at that, might be the other recon), and clicks before you and/or the server receives his command first (with pre activating their scram/disruptor) you are a goner.

Or smarties... they can get you too.


Smartbombs, bubbles, sebo'd recons (really?), these are all specialised equipment available to only a few ships. If you're fine with those being required for pod killing then I guess you should go for the first option.

Quote:
Giving people an (in)vulnerability timer just because there might be some lag is kind of ridiculous.


But that's exactly what invulnerability timers are for. When you enter a new environment or a new ship, your client has to load some stuff others do not, and that might take a few seconds depending on your computer. The invulnerability timer is there to prevent you from being blown up in that time with no chance to react. Invulnerability lasts usually about 10 seconds and is switched off as soon as you do something, so there is no way to exploit it
You say the mechanic is working as intended, but in the current system the best option is to spam warp in the few seconds before you die. So you are saying spamming buttons is an intended part of eve online?

Gates are different, loading an entire grid takes significantly more resources than just loading into a different ship. And as far as franticly pressing the "warp" button in an attempt to SAVE YOUR LIFE is concerned. Mashing buttons is part of eve.

One last note: being invunerable would allow you to warp through bubbles, definatly not cool.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#6 - 2012-07-21 18:05:06 UTC
Uris Vitgar wrote:
So, which is it to be?
Neither. It's working as intended and working well, if you know how to play the game. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Gunnlaugur
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2012-07-21 18:09:03 UTC
if some thing is not broken dont try to fix it, @ the lag part a better conection / pc can fix that.
Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-07-21 18:37:24 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Uris Vitgar wrote:
So, which is it to be?
Neither. It's working as intended and working well, if you know how to play the game. Blink


Utterly ridiculous. Either people are dying unnecesarily because of lag, or they are exploiting the game to escape instantly with no chance of being locked. Obviously niether of those situations is intended. If the intention is that a pilot should escape with his pod if he recognises he is going to lose, this should be implemented in the eject function and not in breaking your mouse
Mag's
Azn Empire
#9 - 2012-07-21 19:12:07 UTC
Uris Vitgar wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Uris Vitgar wrote:
So, which is it to be?
Neither. It's working as intended and working well, if you know how to play the game. Blink


Utterly ridiculous. Either people are dying unnecesarily because of lag, or they are exploiting the game to escape instantly with no chance of being locked. Obviously niether of those situations is intended. If the intention is that a pilot should escape with his pod if he recognises he is going to lose, this should be implemented in the eject function and not in breaking your mouse
Knowing how to play ≠ exploit. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-07-21 19:24:06 UTC
Leaning to play is exploiting the game. Some exploitations are good, whereas some are dumb and need to die

Really? We are down this level already? I guess I should take that as encouragement
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#11 - 2012-07-21 20:24:28 UTC
Uris Vitgar wrote:
Leaning to play is exploiting the game. Some exploitations are good, whereas some are dumb and need to die

Really? We are down this level already? I guess I should take that as encouragement

Your using the wrong definition of exploit.

Exploit in EVE is a bug or something like that that is illegal to utilize (with CCP being the law here).


Also, what happens is not lag (well not the kind that CCP can help with).

Its people being better prepared. And knowing what not to do (like spamming buttons).


If you get caught in your pod in lowsec it is one of two things:
1) stupidity and staying on grid too long

2) a combination of luck and skill on the other side

Its a combination because you need skill to know when to click the button (rapid clicking only decreases your chance of getting away, as there is a greater chance of there being a gap between when the ship pops, and when you click warp), and luck in getting the signal to the server before the opponent.

And anyway I'm fine the way it is. Lost my pod once in null (just outside the bubble, so I could have warped) due to stupidity. Haven't lost another one (though plenty of ships).
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-07-22 09:05:43 UTC
Maybe instead of asking for various timers and stuff for the server to keep track of, and subsequently increase data processing load and in turn increasing "lag" in large-scale fleet batltes, one should ask that pods only be displayed on the grid once the client gives an okay. That is, of course, unless that's how things are already handled. It does seem like the logical way of handling things, but then again logic and MMO design often have nothing to do with each other.

I can understand wanting a set period of time where pods can't be targetted to allow players whose network connection or local hardware are stuttering to have a chance to get their feet under them, but if the server only tells other clients that the pod's there when your client says, "Okay, the egg is out and ready to be scrambled!" then there shouldn't really be any need for it. Once you're loaded in your pod there shouldn't be any more undue data loading, and any lag that delays the server's receipt of that okay will likely also delay receipt of your "warp the **** out" clicking/spamming by an equal amount resulting in it hitting the server shortly after your client's "scrambling time" message hits it and your pod shows up on others' overview.
Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-07-22 09:47:31 UTC
Quote:
And knowing what not to do (like spamming buttons)


Spamming warp works, It's saved my bacon many times. Since you advocate that being prepared should allow you to escape, I take it you prefer the third option then?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#14 - 2012-07-22 14:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Uris Vitgar wrote:
Quote:
And knowing what not to do (like spamming buttons)


Spamming warp works, It's saved my bacon many times. Since you advocate that being prepared should allow you to escape, I take it you prefer the third option then?
I think Corina Jarr would choose option 4, leave it alone. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-07-22 15:40:36 UTC
Quote:
I think Corina Jarr would choose option 4, leave it alone. Blink


Choosing to leave the mechanic as it is rather than implementing option 3 is choosing to promote spamming buttons rather than making a calculated decision to safely evacuate your pod, with consequences appropriate to that action.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#16 - 2012-07-22 15:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Uris Vitgar wrote:
Quote:
I think Corina Jarr would choose option 4, leave it alone. Blink


Choosing to leave the mechanic as it is rather than implementing option 3 is choosing to promote spamming buttons rather than making a calculated decision to safely evacuate your pod, with consequences appropriate to that action.
In other words, learning how to play and not have CCP hold your hand. OK, got it.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-07-22 16:01:57 UTC
There's no need to post if you can't think of a coherent argument, mag's. You can always come back later in the improbable event that you think of something useful to say.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#18 - 2012-07-22 16:11:17 UTC
the requirement to "spam" the button clearly shows that there is something wrong at the server side. Why? Because it seems as actions get lost at the event of the ship death. If they wouldn't get lost you would simply warp as soon you are in the pod.

the simpelst fix would be to take the last warp order (within a short timespan) from the ship and apply it as soon you are in the pod. This would reduce the spaming to a single click short before you explode.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#19 - 2012-07-22 16:14:56 UTC
well. it its also possible that you are dead and the client does not know it yet. In this case the client still tells you "you can not do this because you are scrambled" since it thinks you are in the ship.

thats basically the worst case scenario

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-07-22 16:35:59 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
well. it its also possible that you are dead and the client does not know it yet. In this case the client still tells you "you can not do this because you are scrambled" since it thinks you are in the ship.

thats basically the worst case scenario

You clearly have no idea how stuff works then (also use the edit button)
You spam the warp button so that the command gets received at the same time as your ship goes out (and subsequently launches the pod) Not because the server "loses" the command.
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