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Increasing support for gaming on Linux
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Preihoofd
SHUHADAKU PULHU
#1 - 2012-07-19 18:44:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Preihoofd
Hey all,

Bored and my EVE-capable machine and the one that was not my own are broken.
REALLY broken, like... one death by GPU-chipcreep and the other into bits and pieces and stuff... :( CCP, u got my petition? xD

Anyway, there have been a couple articles on the net about companies (re-)expanding their business to the Linux comunity recently. Some games/applications are targeted to run on the free, very easy to use and actively supported Ubuntu distribution. Examples can be found here:

- Valve porting the steam downloadplatform and L4D2
http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/steamd-penguins/

- Serious Sam 3 Comming to Linux :/ MAYBE
http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?68536-Serious-Sam-3-Comming-to-Linux-MAYBE

- Dell working on Ubuntu Ultrabook for developers (8 may hardware-related)
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/374497/dell-working-on-ubuntu-ultrabook-for-developers

- Dell's Ubuntu Ultrabook arrives this autumn (19 jul hardware-related)
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/375940/dells-ubuntu-ultrabook-arrives-this-autumn

That's a nice gain in support there for Linux users, particularly for the Ubuntu community.

Is CCP keeping an eye out for these kind of developments?
Is CCP having ideas of coming back to supporting EVE on linux? (I've read about them DX graphics difficulties)
Or will it stay the no-no to OpenSource and figure out yoself?

Greetings from Holland,


Preihoofd o7

The only pimp thing about my machine: firefox 14.0.1 browser@debian6.05(Wheezy)
The rest: Intel PIII 1200 MHz, HDD 20gig in tha rig, RAM 256MB of which 16MB is shared video!
No my machine won't run EVE :(
Cray47
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-07-23 17:02:14 UTC
My random thoughts on the topic:

Linux has been suffering from fragmentation of way too many random "not following standards / messiah / prophet" developers and thus has become a complete mess as fast as performance and compatibility is concerned on random desktop machines (PulseAudio anyone ??, or would you prefer nouveau that often prevents potential users from starting Linux LiveCDs ?? - 100 billion useless distros any1 ?).

The system needs a Bill Gates, sad but true - Linus Torvalds can only complain about how bad Gnome 3 is.

Linux client would mean extra money to be spent by CCP, I'd rather see that money allocated in other EVE/CCP Products, tbh.

That being said, a native Linux Client would be a total waste of money since packages / kernel patches / optimizations differ from distro to distro.

Native EvE ARM Toaster Client (NEATC) anyone ??:

http://www.netbsd.org/gallery/in-Action/riz-toaster.jpg

[u]Hi[/u]
Marcus Barrick
Union of Protectorates
#3 - 2012-07-23 21:29:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Barrick
Might not be so bad... If they did it . Follow the same path as Valve start with a single distro aka Ubuntu sence more then 50 percent of the linux popultaiton runs it. As far as CCP having to do it themselves? Im sure The people left at icericus are more then capable of porting it to nix. They have done quit a few cross platform ports. Namely for the Humble indy bundle. Granted its quite a few people that were left over from back when loki games was around but they know there **** . Further more when they actually update the client to not be Direct X dependent it could in fact be much easier to migrate it to a linux native environment. When the games execution and input and graphics subroutines and function calls are not api specific.
GlemSom Nardieu
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#4 - 2012-08-03 13:01:54 UTC
Back in the good old days, EVE did have a native Linux client.
Though they don't have that anymore - they provide good support on the WINE platform! (Though it's not officially supported).

With that said, maintaining a game on 3 platforms instead of 2 isn't really that hard.
Once the general structure of the game is completed, minor patches should be compatible amongs all platforms easily.

As long as the game runs so good under WINE, I'll continue to support this company!
Bent Barrel
#5 - 2012-08-06 07:48:09 UTC
GlemSom Nardieu wrote:
Back in the good old days, EVE did have a native Linux client.
Though they don't have that anymore - they provide good support on the WINE platform! (Though it's not officially supported).

With that said, maintaining a game on 3 platforms instead of 2 isn't really that hard.
Once the general structure of the game is completed, minor patches should be compatible amongs all platforms easily.

As long as the game runs so good under WINE, I'll continue to support this company!


do some research next time please .... there never was a native linux client. it was a wine/cedega wrapped windows client.
Nebu Retski
Lead Farmers
#6 - 2012-08-07 08:35:19 UTC
Cray47 wrote:
That being said, a native Linux Client would be a total waste of money since packages / kernel patches / optimizations differ from distro to distro.

The only things that made sense in your post, the rest was just LOL.

Marcus Barrick wrote:
Further more when they actually update the client to not be Direct X dependent it could in fact be much easier to migrate it to a linux native environment.

Were you following fanfest presentations this year? They are not going to make eve DX independent, they infact are planning on upgrading it to DX11 for more shiny graphics.
Cray47
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-08-07 09:47:33 UTC
Nebu Retski wrote:
The only things that made sense in your post, the rest was just LOL.


ok let me rephrase that. Linux for IT - hell yes, linux for gaming - no, because:

Linux Community is divided between the othodox (gpl or gtfo, wine gtfo - gief native build) and the casual users
... which is the reason why no one will be satisified.

P.S. Did you know that the same person who designed PulseAudio (bugged every other release - you experience
it when EvE loses audio for exemple) has plans of integrating Gnome into Linux kernel ?

[u]Hi[/u]
Seras Victoria Egivand
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-08-08 06:22:44 UTC
Nebu Retski wrote:
Cray47 wrote:
That being said, a native Linux Client would be a total waste of money since packages / kernel patches / optimizations differ from distro to distro.

The only things that made sense in your post, the rest was just LOL.

Marcus Barrick wrote:
Further more when they actually update the client to not be Direct X dependent it could in fact be much easier to migrate it to a linux native environment.

Were you following fanfest presentations this year? They are not going to make eve DX independent, they infact are planning on upgrading it to DX11 for more shiny graphics.



JUst wanted to reply to this you do Realize OGL has had Tellsion and dx 11 effects sence ogl 3,0 which is way before dx 11. People forget that ogl supports all the same commands that dx does it just has a different way of implementing those/
Seras Victoria Egivand
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-08-08 06:27:12 UTC
Cray47 wrote:
Nebu Retski wrote:
The only things that made sense in your post, the rest was just LOL.


ok let me rephrase that. Linux for IT - hell yes, linux for gaming - no, because:

Linux Community is divided between the othodox (gpl or gtfo, wine gtfo - gief native build) and the casual users
... which is the reason why no one will be satisified.

P.S. Did you know that the same person who designed PulseAudio (bugged every other release - you experience
it when EvE loses audio for exemple) has plans of integrating Gnome into Linux kernel ?



You do realize if linux got the same support as windows did the distros would improve yes we all know pulse audio sucks. Your missing the point with steam going linux blizzard ea and a few other big name developers. IT will and should increase the linux user base. TBH people are tired of shelling out money for operating systems every few years when in fact they could have had the same features for the last few years and for free. Just something to think of. OpenGL is a standard for 3d grapics Direct X is not, DX was a marketing ploy when windows was vastly loosing ground to keep developers in the os. Not because the os was a good product.
Bent Barrel
#10 - 2012-08-08 09:31:33 UTC
Seras Victoria Egivand wrote:
Nebu Retski wrote:
Cray47 wrote:
That being said, a native Linux Client would be a total waste of money since packages / kernel patches / optimizations differ from distro to distro.

The only things that made sense in your post, the rest was just LOL.

Marcus Barrick wrote:
Further more when they actually update the client to not be Direct X dependent it could in fact be much easier to migrate it to a linux native environment.

Were you following fanfest presentations this year? They are not going to make eve DX independent, they infact are planning on upgrading it to DX11 for more shiny graphics.



JUst wanted to reply to this you do Realize OGL has had Tellsion and dx 11 effects sence ogl 3,0 which is way before dx 11. People forget that ogl supports all the same commands that dx does it just has a different way of implementing those/


no it does not ... try threaded OGL vs threaded D3D .... some other features do not exist in OGL ...

also OGL3.0 is equivalent to DX10 ...

what's Tellsion ?
Seras Victoria Egivand
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-08-08 09:55:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Seras Victoria Egivand
Bent Barrel wrote:
Seras Victoria Egivand wrote:
Nebu Retski wrote:
Cray47 wrote:
That being said, a native Linux Client would be a total waste of money since packages / kernel patches / optimizations differ from distro to distro.

The only things that made sense in your post, the rest was just LOL.

Marcus Barrick wrote:
Further more when they actually update the client to not be Direct X dependent it could in fact be much easier to migrate it to a linux native environment.

Were you following fanfest presentations this year? They are not going to make eve DX independent, they infact are planning on upgrading it to DX11 for more shiny graphics.



JUst wanted to reply to this you do Realize OGL has had Tellsion and dx 11 effects sence ogl 3,0 which is way before dx 11. People forget that ogl supports all the same commands that dx does it just has a different way of implementing those/


no it does not ... try threaded OGL vs threaded D3D .... some other features do not exist in OGL ...

also OGL3.0 is equivalent to DX10 ...

what's Tellsion ?



sorry it was OpenGL 4.0 That added Tessellation to it.. As far as feature for feature sorry OGL has always been the forefront of Cutting edge over DX. As far as Threaded OGL its in ogl 4.8... Please get off the Microsoft bandwagon really. Why would you want anyone to support Propitiatory vs standard (and open source) ?? You realize only Microsoft products use Direct X the rest of the planet uses OpenGL. (just a note that the features in direct x 11 that they are adding to the game. Umm opengl had that 3 years prior ...)

But here’s the best bit: Using these new OpenGL optimizations, the OpenGL version of L4D2 on Windows is now faster than the DirectX version. With the same hardware, Windows 7/OpenGL/L4D2 clocks in at 303.4 fps — compared to Windows 7/DirectX/L4D2 at 270.6 fps. In short: OpenGL is faster than DirectX.

The irony is Most apps that are programmed identically one for linux one for windows linux generally comes out on top. Irony is theres even some apps that preform better under linux using wine then on the native platform itself...

Im not trying to pull the windows vs linux debate its been done.


Moral is Most Publishers DO NOT LIKE windows 8.. Sence alot of big name publishers are making the switch there just trying to increase awareness to ccp that we would like a native client is all.


And sorry for the miss spelling of Tessellation.

If you want i can site you more benchmarks between DX vs OGL.
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#12 - 2012-08-08 18:03:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Karak Terrel
Cray47 wrote:

Linux has been suffering from fragmentation of way too many random "not following standards / messiah / prophet" developers and thus has become a complete mess as fast as performance and compatibility is concerned on random desktop machines (PulseAudio anyone ??, or would you prefer nouveau that often prevents potential users from starting Linux LiveCDs ?? - 100 billion useless distros any1 ?).

The system needs a Bill Gates, sad but true - Linus Torvalds can only complain about how bad Gnome 3 is.


I hear that argument over and over again. There are "Bill Gates" for Linux, but maybe 50 of them. People disagree about how the perfect windowmanager looks like, they disagree what the right language is for the job, they disagree all the time. If you have an open system like Linux there is simply no way to control the growth of conflicting ideas. It just grows and the result is a diverse ecosystem of libraries and programs. That's just how it is, no amount of complaining will ever change that.

If Windows and MacOS where open like Linux, they would experience the same, no Steve or Bill could stop that from happening.
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#13 - 2012-08-08 18:37:24 UTC
Cray47 wrote:

That being said, a native Linux Client would be a total waste of money since packages / kernel patches / optimizations differ from distro to distro.


I don't see how kernel patches could influence a proprietary software at all. There are tons of proprietary software products that run perfectly on whatever exotic distribution and kernel you chose.

There is no technical issue here, the question is and always was: Is there a market to justify the amount of work needed to port a game.
Cray47
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-08-08 18:51:27 UTC
Karak Terrel wrote:

There is no technical issue here, the question is and always was: Is there a market to justify the amount of work needed to port a game.


that's a pretty solid point.

[u]Hi[/u]
Vogue
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#15 - 2012-08-08 21:47:02 UTC
I can get around in Linux but I am not great at it. If anyone has got a directX game working in Linux with wine that can do 80% fps compared to Windows fps I really would like to know how you did it. The best I have got is around 40% fps in Linux compared to Windows fps for Eve.
Marcus Barrick
Union of Protectorates
#16 - 2012-08-08 21:48:36 UTC
Karak Terrel wrote:
Cray47 wrote:

That being said, a native Linux Client would be a total waste of money since packages / kernel patches / optimizations differ from distro to distro.


I don't see how kernel patches could influence a proprietary software at all. There are tons of proprietary software products that run perfectly on whatever exotic distribution and kernel you chose.

There is no technical issue here, the question is and always was: Is there a market to justify the amount of work needed to port a game.



Kernel patches don't effect how your software works (eg games). The same way windows updates dont effect the way your applications work.
Marcus Barrick
Union of Protectorates
#17 - 2012-08-08 21:51:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Barrick
Cray47 wrote:
Karak Terrel wrote:

There is no technical issue here, the question is and always was: Is there a market to justify the amount of work needed to port a game.


that's a pretty solid point.



CCP knows they have linux users.. How many They prob do not know sense wine masks it anyways. Will CCP ever make a linux client Native no transmog cyder.... Who knows?

The day people wake up and realize that windows is not the end of the world when it comes to an operating system ...


For people that think ogl is bad for games...


Products that use openGL

LInux/Unix/BSD-FreeBSD//Mac OS/Android Phones-Tablets/Wii/Ps3/Ps2

Products that use
Direct X

Windows/Windows mobile phones-Win Tablets

Just some food for thought.
Reg Skuse
Scarlet Industries
#18 - 2012-08-15 10:21:51 UTC
Karak Terrel wrote:

There is no technical issue here, the question is and always was: Is there a market to justify the amount of work needed to port a game.


And the problem is that there is no realistic way to measure the amount of Linux users on the desktop. WINE reports to be Windows, web browser user agents are completely unreliable and there is no single company that can report on public sales (as there aren't any).

In other words Linux is a ninja penguin.
Sal Alo
Pane Panelle e Crocche
#19 - 2012-08-17 08:03:10 UTC
My hopes for a Linux client were almost zero before Valve recent actions but now I see a tiny chance Roll
Katrina Bekers
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#20 - 2012-08-17 13:59:22 UTC
Marcus Barrick wrote:
CCP knows they have linux users.. How many They prob do not know sense wine masks it anyways. Will CCP ever make a linux client Native no transmog cyder.... Who knows?

I always see this problem as an easily solvable one.

A checkbox in the settings page that says "check this box if and only if you are running this software on linux".

You know, the client already connects to CCP's servers! Blink It may as well tell the server "hey, another turbonerd associated with account X, Y and Z".

...I'm p sure the word-of-mouth among us linux users would spread wildly enough to make this a reasonable metric.

Of course, I'll delight myself into forcing everyone in my power bloc to flip that switch!Twisted

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