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Playing the market: Chrematistics. Is evolution really devolution?

Author
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-07-19 16:12:05 UTC  |  Edited by: EpicFailTroll
I'll just have to quote Wikipedia, which caters to the lowest common denominator and is not subject to much interpretation regarding academics backed with texts.

"Chrematistics (from Greek: χρηματιστική) according to Thales of Miletus is the art of getting rich.

Aristotle established the fundamental difference between economics and chrematistics. The accumulation of money itself is an unnatural activity that dehumanizes those who practice it. Like Plato, he condemns the accumulation of wealth. Trade exchanges money for goods and usury creates money from money. The merchant does not produce anything: both are reprehensible from the standpoint of philosophical ethics.

According to Aristotle, the "necessary" chrematistic economy is licit if the sale of goods is made directly between the producer and buyer at the right price; it does not generate a value-added product. By contrast, it is illicit if the producer purchases for resale to consumers for a higher price, generating added value. The money must be only a medium of exchange and measure of value."

All of the market players basically indulge in the most lame, degenerate and corrupt form of economy there is. It's actually self-evident. I, for one, felt dirty each time I did it, and really don't see the point anymore. Doing it is just being a hurdle in the way things pass from hands to hands. It is being a parasite leeching on the life-force of goods exchanged, on the life-force of the market.

What's really depressing is that for most, such truths cannot be experienced, so tainted their souls are.
Deacon Blue Jouhinen
Terra Nova Solutions
#2 - 2012-07-19 16:43:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Blue Jouhinen
Oh good, well that about fills my daily quota of self-righteous preachy crap. This is the same kind of troll the guy at McDonalds tries when he makes my burger.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-07-19 16:45:14 UTC
Greek philosophers were self-righteous and preachy
Liberty Eternal
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-07-19 17:11:59 UTC
Please don't ever, EVER try to mis-use Aristotle to back up your insidious, corrupting socialist propaganda ever again.

That will be all, thank you.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-07-19 17:22:01 UTC
But it's not socialist, I'm actually a libertarian

However, libertarianism only works when people demonstrate common decency, which illicit chrematistics don't belong in.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#6 - 2012-07-19 17:50:26 UTC
It's a description of a /small/ scale economy. It just doesn't work when you increase the scale.

It precludes, for example, companies such as supermarkets. Enjoy wandering out to a farm when you want to buy anything.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Gr0uch
This is How I Duck Taxes
#7 - 2012-07-19 17:53:16 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
libertarianism works


I think I found the hole in your theory.
Srioghal moDhream
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-07-19 17:55:17 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
I'll just have to quote Wikipedia, which caters to the lowest common denominator and is not subject to much interpretation regarding academics backed with texts.

"Chrematistics (from Greek: χρηματιστική) according to Thales of Miletus is the art of getting rich.

Aristotle established the fundamental difference between economics and chrematistics. The accumulation of money itself is an unnatural activity that dehumanizes those who practice it. Like Plato, he condemns the accumulation of wealth. Trade exchanges money for goods and usury creates money from money. The merchant does not produce anything: both are reprehensible from the standpoint of philosophical ethics.

According to Aristotle, the "necessary" chrematistic economy is licit if the sale of goods is made directly between the producer and buyer at the right price; it does not generate a value-added product. By contrast, it is illicit if the producer purchases for resale to consumers for a higher price, generating added value. The money must be only a medium of exchange and measure of value."

All of the market players basically indulge in the most lame, degenerate and corrupt form of economy there is. It's actually self-evident. I, for one, felt dirty each time I did it, and really don't see the point anymore. Doing it is just being a hurdle in the way things pass from hands to hands. It is being a parasite leeching on the life-force of goods exchanged, on the life-force of the market.

What's really depressing is that for most, such truths cannot be experienced, so tainted their souls are.


This only occurs because people are lazy.
So don't blame the people who make money off this, blame the lazy people who enable this type of behaviour.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-07-19 18:01:08 UTC  |  Edited by: EpicFailTroll
Steve Ronuken wrote:
It's a description of a /small/ scale economy. It just doesn't work when you increase the scale.

It precludes, for example, companies such as supermarkets. Enjoy wandering out to a farm when you want to buy anything.


Very true, but supermarkets do provide a transportation and convenience service. It's not purely playing on goods to earn a profit without providing anything to the community.


Srioghal moDhream wrote:

This only occurs because people are lazy.
So don't blame the people who make money off this, blame the lazy people who enable this type of behaviour.


There is some truth in that also, but you cannot rule out people who will buy all of x good in an area, to resell it at a higher price. Said good is then only available at a higher price.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#10 - 2012-07-19 19:27:15 UTC
Hey do not pick on libertarians we may be a little deluded about how little goverment is needed, but we are at least facing in the right direction.

The whole idea of no value added by retailers, usery rate and other fear mongering by philosphers impose on the business world is because they see the transaction as price - materails equals profit. They ignore the whole concepts of time value of money, the value to the end user of conveniance, the fact that some things that are not worth doing on a small scale become massively profitable on a huge scale (not worth figuring out the best way to dispose of 50m3 of mission loot, but to the guy who buys and sorts through 10k m3 a day it is worth it ). The market in eve returns the value of lquidity and time back to the equation.

That of course is unless you have a GD $%^$%^$ market bot .01 isking you all day.

Mr Bushar
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-07-19 19:48:26 UTC
Liberty Eternal wrote:
Please don't ever, EVER try to mis-use Aristotle to back up your insidious, corrupting socialist propaganda ever again.

That will be all, thank you.


I think I love you
Bifordus Maximus
MissoCorp
#12 - 2012-07-19 20:02:36 UTC
I thought this was a videogame. i don't think anyone really cares about such things. Roll
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#13 - 2012-07-19 20:27:48 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:

According to Aristotle, the "necessary" chrematistic economy is licit if the sale of goods is made directly between the producer and buyer at the right price; it does not generate a value-added product. By contrast, it is illicit if the producer purchases for resale to consumers for a higher price, generating added value. The money must be only a medium of exchange and measure of value."


There's a lot of short sight in that statement (made by you or Aristotle does not matter).

Traders on a macro scale infuse liquidity in the system, that's their "goods".
They make so that the added value actually decreases due to competition.
Check illiquid markets, spreads are huge and thus prices are not "right" as you state above.

Liquid markets - and they are liquid also because of traders - have small spread so the end consumer pays less added value.

Notice the "less" term: don't delude yourself, even direct sales have added value, sometimes well superior than identical large scale commoditized items. By Aristotle there'd be no licit trading, I know no one who would knowingly sell at a loss or at pure "right price".
Domitian Aurelius
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-07-19 20:35:26 UTC
Additionally, traders in EVE provide value in many locations by buying stuff you want to sell *immediately*.

If you'd truly like to hold on the that 150mm Railgun I for a day while you wait for someone to come along and buy it, then list it on the market. If you want the cash immediately, sell it to a middleman (me) for half the price and i'll do the waiting for you (as a valuable service no less!).

-Dom
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-07-19 20:57:36 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:

According to Aristotle, the "necessary" chrematistic economy is licit if the sale of goods is made directly between the producer and buyer at the right price; it does not generate a value-added product. By contrast, it is illicit if the producer purchases for resale to consumers for a higher price, generating added value. The money must be only a medium of exchange and measure of value."


There's a lot of short sight in that statement (made by you or Aristotle does not matter).

Traders on a macro scale infuse liquidity in the system, that's their "goods".
They make so that the added value actually decreases due to competition.
Check illiquid markets, spreads are huge and thus prices are not "right" as you state above.

Liquid markets - and they are liquid also because of traders - have small spread so the end consumer pays less added value.

Notice the "less" term: don't delude yourself, even direct sales have added value, sometimes well superior than identical large scale commoditized items. By Aristotle there'd be no licit trading, I know no one who would knowingly sell at a loss or at pure "right price".



How is buying and reselling something that would be bought anyway -at a lower price-, adding liquidity, grease, and flexibility to a market?
Deacon Blue Jouhinen
Terra Nova Solutions
#16 - 2012-07-19 21:12:02 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:


How is buying and reselling something that would be bought anyway -at a lower price-, adding liquidity, grease, and flexibility to a market?


Wait a second... you think that in a world without traders the item would be sold at a lower price? I bet if we get rid of all the guns there will be no violence too.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-07-19 21:18:04 UTC
Deacon Blue Jouhinen wrote:

Wait a second... you think that in a world without traders the item would be sold at a lower price? I bet if we get rid of all the guns there will be no violence too.


I'm merely asking how parasitic inflation of the prices, without any convenience added to the goods or their delivery of, adds grease and flexibility to a market?
Xiang Jing
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-07-19 21:28:07 UTC
Convenience? Convenience is added via the service being faster.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-07-19 21:31:55 UTC
Xiang Jing wrote:
Convenience? Convenience is added via the service being faster.


So when someone puts its good on the market, and someone buys them to resell them, it makes them faster to buy?

An added step means a quicker service?
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-07-20 01:30:27 UTC
I am sure Aristotle would also agree that murder, invasion, and extermination of entire organizations is a valid way to obtain resources, and that "because I can" is enough of a reason to destroy a defenseless vessel in a suicide attack.
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