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Strange to think, EVE could just be reduced to just 4,000 people playing it.

"Strange to think" perhaps but it looks like reading comprehension isn't your strong point either.

This goes hand in hand with "Ring Mining" though perhaps they'll do something different. Still, if it's not feasibly taxable, then CCP is completely eliminating that as an income source.

I am a bit slow on these tax issues, why is it important for the game to have automatic taxes for alliances and corps? Also why is it not possible to just have a part of the profit after a ring mining op go to the alliance or corp wallet? Seems like CEO's have a hard time selling a tax to their members, so they hope CCP will just force one, then they can ride the coat tails of it.

I know if you forced others to pay taxes if it wasn't forced by CCP, they would just leave the alliance or corp, but then how does CCP add new taxes to the game, if players react that way.

Also curious to what, alot of corps spend tax money on, or why tax money is so important as well.

Ah, I totally forgot about the bills. That is tough. Also I suppose jump bridges as well. Lot of good points really.

The bottom-up economy seems harder for an alliance to foster. Seems like the sec status nerf hurts that alot. Or that most activites for grunts to do lie in CCP's hands. (From my own personality I would propably choose moon goo, over renters) Only bottom-up through taxes seem, for like smoothing out the game in general for new people or venture people or industrial people. Like buying skillbooks, or other things, to help them move forward faster, (Then in turn they make their own money faster or become more independent) (or industrial, with helping to subsidies ore and ships bought) (Suppose pvp gets the new ships, but sometimes that seems hard to make smaller, as well as the general stuf) ( Suppose loans through taxes can help expand things, as long as ya trust him I suppose.)

I suppose those things are nice, but I mostly clash with how much CEO's feel like there is alot to do in the game, but at a lower lvl it doesn't seem like there is a lot to do. So an emphasis on taxes usually confuse me.

Though the SOV bill and jumpbridges to add more to a CEO's attitude.

Just caught the favoring one particular group. Forgot the tax system is already kind of broken and some activites go untaxed, why more emphasis on more things getting taxed, so it ends up more fairer. (But like I said, just generally feel, there isn't enough to do to warrant taxes, and suppose some CCP nerfs hurt that as well)(Don't want to blame CCP for them, that is another thread)

I have to ask, even though I think I know the answer.

Do you think 0.0 should be geared toward more of a top-down economy or a bottom-up economy?

Historically, 0.0 has always been very top down, though that is gradually changing.

I think both should be viable

I just feel that with the current "top-down" model, there is less and less small gang PvP in null. That and there is less and less of a way for a small entity to fight a guerilla war against a larger one.

Look at TEST, they can leave their space completely vacant and go invade a region dozens of jumps away because they know that they're making just as much isk now as they were before, and there is nobody stupid enough to drop the dreads necessary to take out any of their income sources.

Honestly, I believe that if ring mining contains moon materials, then they should move moon miners outside of the POS shield and let them be incapped by small-medium sized fleets, thus making the large alliances actually have to actively defend their space.

If a small-medium sized gang could sweep in and incap a whole ton of moon miners, the larger entity might be more inclined to be defensively minded rather than the total offense we have now.

I guess this is still top down, but at least now its based on member participation not alliance force projection.

I can't see CCP doing that - whats the point in having moons.

From what my understanding of Ring Mining was it was to keep you Goons from monopolosing the market like you have done.

Does't Fozzie say somewhere that once a limit is reached these rings appear for people to mine?

I'd say rather that there is nobody smart or patient enough. Hit enough moons over a long enough period of time and Test will have to choose between canceling their deployment or losing some moons (or trying to keep two balls in the air at once at the risk of burning out their pilots).

Or do you think you should be able to half-arse attacking an entity larger and more organised than yourself and still win?

A nullsec economy should absolutely be primarily bottom up. An alliance should have to live in its space and have its pilots living in the space to be able to hold the space, as opposed to now where they can hold space and pilots can do whatever they want because its all moon income anyway. Because of this, I personally disagree that top down should be viable at all - top down things like moons should be a "cherry on top" rather than an enabler of space on their own.

• Diverse and taxable income streams. Ratting, mining, plexing, PI, whatever - players should have a choice. It should be income accessible for the average grunt.
• These income streams should be linked to sovereignty. Most already are in some way - running anomalies is superior to belt ratting and sovereignty offers upgrades that attract more anomalies. Grav mining is superior to belt mining and sovereignty offers upgrades to get better grav belts, and so on.
• These activities must be taxable, and the players need to not be able to avoid the tax. Mining taxes as they stand can be avoided, ratting and PI taxes cannot be. Future systems need to more resemble PI and ratting in terms of taxability than mining.

Rodyas asked - why? What do alliances pay for anyway? At a minimum, we pay sovereignty bills and other expenses related to holding space. We (speaking of goons in particular now) also pay strategic reimbursements so pilots can keep fighting and peacetime reimbursements so goons can go shoot anything anywhere and be reimbursed if they die. This may sound like extravagance but CCP should like it that we (and many other large alliances) have this sort of subsidy - it encourages the enormous battles that they love to tout in the press.

Believe it or not this is something goons have wanted to see for a long time. We were happy to band together to milk tech for all it was worth while it lasted, but that doesn't mean we didn't recognize it as a dumb system.


You're half right - the problem is the bottleneck. The monopoly exacerbated the issue (and made it very glaringly public) but Tech would have gotten up to old dysprosium/promethium levels (which never was monopolized) all on its own if we'd left it be. Without a properly tuned alchemy system in place, the nature of the moon system makes a bottleneck guaranteed. If CCP's solution right now were to simply change mineral usage around (like they did to fix dyspro/prom) we'd likely have another bottleneck before long.

The fortunate thing is that Fozzie seems to realize this, so maybe it'll get fixed right proper this time. Just so long as he remembers to allow alliances their income