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New dev blog: Tech is fine l2p

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Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#781 - 2012-07-27 00:58:29 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

While we realize this will be a multi stage release, the boredom of 0.0 wont make it until some november release, we need MORE things to drive conflicts NOW not later, and taking the last thing left out isn't really the best idea.



So go shoot all the Cobalt and platinum moons.


there are too many cobalt and platinum moons to take down, there's no way any one organization could possibly do this

doing this is stupid

your example is stupid

and you're stupid

now I'm stupid
Kaycerra
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#782 - 2012-07-27 01:14:49 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Powers Sa wrote:

So you're shooting for 80k per unit prices?


One of the goals up until the beginning of phase two is for Tech to continue being the best moon in the game by a large margin.




So, you blatantly admit that putting a ceiling so high on technitium, that it gives a single group of players the ability to jack the prices up even higher, and point the finger at you?

Let me guess, phase two is giving out new tech 2 bpos to OTEC, to go with their months of tech at 40-80k per unit.

Seriously, PLEASE, someone get fozzie off this project, and find someone who isn't intent on spiralling an already broken problem into mega-trillions mode for half a year.
Ione Hawke
Darkness Industries
#783 - 2012-07-27 01:15:24 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Ok genius, whats left to fight over after this?


Owning space sucks, its boring, thankless, and nothing more than a burden. CCP destroyed the value of space by adding in the anoms, so true sec matters far less now days. I mean you have alliances like AAA and CVA who keep where they live by default since nobody else in the game wants the space. The 'dumbing down' of space has already greatly reduced the need for conflict around EVE, the moons were one of the last great content creators.


Now that will be gone, what are we supposed to fight over? The entire south already avoids SOV fights of any kind, its just not financially worth the effort.

Now the game over can enjoy what they do because theres no real reason to do anything else.


Its not the money leaving that matters, its the things to fight over being diminished one more time.


It is my impression that at the moment tech is a major reason why alliances avoid conflict. It makes perfect sense to form a technetium cartel, it provides tons of isk, security, and at the same time none of the members will consider breaking with the pact, because they will instantly forfeit their precious moons. Did each the alliances in he north fall in love with goons, or was it actually the tech they fell in love with? So unless goons themselves explode, or decide they want all of the tech, I dont expect the cartel to break up from the inside. There certainly isn't any motivation for the individual alliances to do so.

It is also obvious that other non-tech alliances pose no threat. Will there be an coalition that does in half a year? In a year perhaps? I wonder, is complete stagnation in null during this period, while otec banks isk, good for the game?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#784 - 2012-07-27 01:25:20 UTC
Hammer Legion Member wrote:
Did Technetium @ 200k ever do what your predicting?.


Yes actually, virtually every big fight up north over the past 5 months has been over a tech moon, and there have been TONS of fights over those moons. Everybody wanted a shot at those moons and just about everybody took a shot, Including AAA doing a field trip north from the the far southern half of the game to fight over them.

Bloodpetal wrote:

When Ring mining comes out there will be.

They will be called MINERS. They will be players that mine. And they will be out there mining. And then people will want to kill them.


No, actually they wont die, their scout 2 jumps over will have reported incoming hostiles long before the miners themselves are ever in danger and they'll then POS up or dock up thanks to the 20 large bubbles they'll anchor on their ingates.

Glad to see you play EVE in 0.0.

Ione Hawke wrote:


It is my impression that at the moment tech is a major reason why alliances avoid conflict.


Your impression is wrong, people fight over the moons, this week alone there have been daily fights over tech moons. Your just listening to the one side crying loudest because they didn't have the foresight that the other side had.


Ione Hawke wrote:
It makes perfect sense to form a technetium cartel,


Right, its player driven content, you know, what EVE is allegedly built around, only, for the entire summer CCP's main goal seems to be to undo all of the player driven content in EVE, from Incursions, to Hulkageddon, to the Tech Cartel.

Ione Hawke wrote:
It is also obvious that other non-tech alliances pose no threat. Will there be an coalition that does in half a year? In a year perhaps? I wonder, is complete stagnation in null during this period, while otec banks isk, good for the game?


We banked the isk for a year an a half, at any point in time during that year an a half the rest of the game could have gotten together and ....wait for it...created some content by working closely enough together to undo what we were working towards. OTEC is only about 4 months old, prior to that we were largely opposed to each other.

Everything most people are basing their opinions on is largely based off of southern bloc posters who are frustrated at recent failures which they're unable to attribute to their coalition leaders.

Instead of doing what we did, working within the game mechanics to enact change, they've taken the tried and true method of crying until the developers change the game.

Only this wont help them since we've all amassed such wealth and a working infrastructure with Jabbers and join comms and shared intel, that nothing the developers do short of purposely disbanding the OTEC alliances will make s difference for years to come.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#785 - 2012-07-27 01:33:38 UTC
Wow...if this is the kind of change we can expect when a new dev is hired then I say, fire all the old staff and start hiring new people!

I'm kidding!

New changes look cool. Keep up the good work!

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#786 - 2012-07-27 01:37:42 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselSA
CCP Fozzie wrote:

But the game doesn't need 180k tech to have conflict. Tech is now only 5x the value of the second best moon instead of 11x.

It's 2x. I don't mean to be rude but if you think it's 5x you did the math wrong. Akita T's numbers were wrong - mine, that I posted earlier in this thread, are correct.

It's only 80-90k right now because most people can't do math and we haven't killed the buys since we're hoping for more suckers.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#787 - 2012-07-27 01:45:41 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselSA
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Powers Sa wrote:

So you're shooting for 80k per unit prices?


One of the goals up until the beginning of phase two is for Tech to continue being the best moon in the game by a large margin.

It's not. I'm completely serious when I say I expect tech to be 40k as a result of this.

If you don't believe my math, the correct way to calculate it is listed here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1690733#post1690733
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Assume platinum of 2,000, and 15,000 fuel blocks (down once isotopes crash). That's a healthy margin on the fuel blocks at pre-hulkageddon isotope prices (blocks have a build cost of under 12k at isotopes = 600).


Floor calculations (this is the lowest tech can go)
Your costs for 1 hour of reactions are:
Old version:
Platinum x5 10,000
Fuelx16: 240,000
Total: 250,000

250,000 = 10 plat technite, plat technite worth 25k at the floor, tech floored at 50k

New version:
Platinum x10 20,000
Fuelx16: 240,000
Total: 260,000

260,000 = 20 plat technite, plat technite worth 13k at the floor, tech floored at 26k.

To get the real price, you add in profit: calculate what you think running a medium tower is worth per month (given how common cobalt is, 100m per tower seems reasonable since you can run many in one system), divide by 720 (hours in a month). That's 138,888 per hour

Your costs for 1 hour of reactions are:
Old version:
Platinum x5 10,000
Fuelx16: 240,000
Profit: 138,888
Total: 388,888. Round to 390,000 for nice numbers

390,000 = 10 plat technite, plat technite worth 39k in reality, tech worth 78k in reality.

New version:
Platinum x10 20,000
Fuelx16: 240,000
Profit: 138,888
Total: 398,888. Round to 400,000

400,000 = 20 plat technite, plat technite worth 20k in reality, tech worth 40k in reality.


Come up with your own plat, fuel, profit, and cobalt costs, and you can calculate tech prices. I believe my numbers are accurate, and I believe the current cobalt prices are largely due to highsec people not really realizing just how common cobalt is. I've got our 60k+ moon db: you will never, ever, run out of people doing alchemy with "free" cobalt. Hell, pull the internal numbers if you don't believe me.

Alchemy will be done by finding multi-cobalt systems (4+) and just slapping a medium on each cobalt moon and running them all (insert platinum, take out unrefined plat tech, refine for platinum to feed back in). Moon reacting scales well: four towers in one system is barely more work than one.

edit: to put my credentials on the table, I'm Weaselior, the goonswarm CFO. I've also run a 20 tower reaction farm myself so I know how those work, and for our finances I've been wargaming this sort of nerf for a while so I did a lot of the math a while ago.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#788 - 2012-07-27 01:49:33 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:

So go shoot all the Cobalt and platinum moons.

Let us assume these are mined by smalls.

Let us assume they are sieged by enough dreads to one-cycle them, and that's 20.

You're looking at about 85 man-years of work.
Smoke Adian
#789 - 2012-07-27 01:52:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Smoke Adian
Bloodpetal wrote:
I guess attacking a 9 Trillion ISK a week bloc that has no interest in generating conflict isn't worth driving conflict, hence your "conflict drivers" are a load of crap.


Wait, are you talking about the bloc that rearranged most of the northern sov this year, took a break for a couple months and then went and wrecked the south in one of the largest-scale invasions in recent EVE history?

Just wanted to make sure we're talking about the same bloc cause it seems to me that the ownership of tech actually encourages entities to generate conflict because they are in the unique position to be able to subsidize it.

Besides, according to recorded -A- comms, renters are a far superior means of alliance income than tech. Nerf renters.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#790 - 2012-07-27 01:58:02 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselSA
Bloodpetal wrote:

I guess attacking a 9 Trillion ISK a week bloc that has no interest in generating conflict isn't worth driving conflict, hence your "conflict drivers" are a load of crap.

also in case it wasn't clear enough you were bad at math

400 tech moons is a high estimate
let us assume tech is 200k

that's 5.7 trillion from tech moons per month: all tech moons, everywhere (you're asserting a income of ~36t isk per month)
so you were only off by a factor of 6 or so if our "bloc" owned every tech moon in the game
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#791 - 2012-07-27 02:04:05 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Only this wont help them since we've all amassed such wealth and a working infrastructure with Jabbers and join comms and shared intel, that nothing the developers do short of purposely disbanding the OTEC alliances will make s difference for years to come.

Money isn't what makes alliances unassailable, it's organization. PL and Goonswarm have built organizations so resilient they absorb massive sov and monetary losses without a hitch.
Rhiana O'Bludger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#792 - 2012-07-27 02:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhiana O'Bludger
even though i like bathing naked in the isk that tech generates, i for one believe that it has stagnated quite a bit of the 0.0 blocks.

there is no one capable of taking tech moons OUTSIDE of the otec block period. the rest of eve 0.0 could band together and they still couldn't break the otec cartel, and no matter what any other idiot try's to tell you in or out of this forum, its a fact. any idiot inside the otec cartel who whines about lack of content has no one to blame except themselves and there own alliances.
the only way that there would be pressure applied to break otec, would be be pressure withing otec itself due to a internal factor, or a game change factor, eg tech is no longer worth otec'ing for. Poeple that whine about no content, or no content generation, are basically lazy, lazy because they can't be arsed to go out on a limb, risk everything, or put themselves into a situation where quite frankly there is little chance of winning.

what tech has done, is generated a comfort zone, and until that comfort zone is broken, or people are willing to leave that comfort zone, then 0.0 will still remain stagnant. Fozzie, keep chipping away mate, ignore the dikheads, and keep doing what your doing.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#793 - 2012-07-27 02:27:36 UTC
I took a moment to review the actual math behind plat tech alchemy, and I'm posting my findings below.

:siren: MATH TIME :siren:

The prevalence of cobalt and platinum dictates that, over time, plat tech alchemy will go to fuel cost. CCP Fozzie said as much in the devblog announcing the change.

Here is a pos block worksheet, where I've artificially set the price of isotopes to 600 isk per unit. All other pos block ingredients (primarily planetary interaction items) are not expected to move significantly due to this patch, so I'm using current prices (pulled from eve-central) for them.

I must stress that the isotope isk per unit figure is very conservative -- with the advent of 80k EHP skiffs and 27k EHP hulks, mining ice in high sec is completely safe and will be inundated by bots inside of a month. If ice falls to 400 or 500 isk per unit, it will not surprise me in the least. 600 isk was chosen due to being the average price for isotopes before the GSF Gallente Ice Interdiction.

Worksheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AukS-t3ALI3ZdFVQWWtyYjl2R2NlYzFlQlRWMFJCUmc#gid=1 (Ignore the block cost column, it's just pulling the current pos block cost from eve-c. Column B is the important part.)

A fuel block costs 11,824 isk based on that sheet. A non-faction, medium pos doing a single PT alchemy reaction in sov space will consume 15 fuel blocks per hour, 10 platinum per hour, and 100 cobalt per hour. There is enough cobalt in eve to safely discard the cost of the cobalt, as attempting to ship it in any reasonable quantity incurs more fuel cost than is profitable to export. Platinum is currently 3,505.81 isk in Jita, but we'll increase the price of platinum by 20% to account for a sixth use of platinum being added to the game, to 4,206.97 isk.

Costs:
* 15 fuel blocks: 177,360 isk
* 100 cobalt: free
* 10 platinum: 42,069.70 isk

Subtotal: 219,429.70 isk
Divide by 20 to get 10,971.49 isk per unit of plat tech


Now, working backwards, we consider technetium. The same medium tower in sov space doing a non-alchemy plat tech reaction.

The breakeven point for plat tech is 10,971 isk per unit. The simple reaction produces 200 plat tech per hour, so total isk grossed is 2,194,297 isk per hour.

Costs:
* 15 fuel blocks: 177,360 isk
* 100 platinum: 420,697 isk
* 100 technetium: 100X

Subtotal: 598,057 + 100X

With some simple algebra,

598,057 + 100X = 2,194,297
100X = 1,596,240
X = 15,962.40 isk per unit of technetium


So yeah, right now neodymium is 22,000 isk per unit, and it's likely to rise some after patch

and this is a CONSERVATIVE number based on an arguably optimistic value of 600 isk / unit on topes
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#794 - 2012-07-27 02:29:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Just to make things clear, Promiscuous Female is my alt

Hi, I'm a member of the Goonswarm Federation Financial Cabal (the so called "Faction Five") and I was involved with the Faction Warfare Forex thing

Check out all the authority I've got over math and eve

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#795 - 2012-07-27 02:40:18 UTC
Confirming that querns knows a thing or two about number crunching and theorycrafting.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Ashara Milan
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#796 - 2012-07-27 02:54:16 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Confirming that querns knows a thing or two about number crunching and theorycrafting.

Reputation doesn't matter when the math is on your side.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#797 - 2012-07-27 02:55:01 UTC
The math has to be right, though. What I'm saying is that it should be. Blink

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#798 - 2012-07-27 02:56:09 UTC
Well, that escalated quickly.

Powers Sa
#799 - 2012-07-27 03:20:28 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
I took a moment to review the actual math behind plat tech alchemy, and I'm posting my findings below.

:siren: MATH TIME :siren:

The prevalence of cobalt and platinum dictates that, over time, plat tech alchemy will go to fuel cost. CCP Fozzie said as much in the devblog announcing the change.

Here is a pos block worksheet, where I've artificially set the price of isotopes to 600 isk per unit. All other pos block ingredients (primarily planetary interaction items) are not expected to move significantly due to this patch, so I'm using current prices (pulled from eve-central) for them.

I must stress that the isotope isk per unit figure is very conservative -- with the advent of 80k EHP skiffs and 27k EHP hulks, mining ice in high sec is completely safe and will be inundated by bots inside of a month. If ice falls to 400 or 500 isk per unit, it will not surprise me in the least. 600 isk was chosen due to being the average price for isotopes before the GSF Gallente Ice Interdiction.

Worksheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AukS-t3ALI3ZdFVQWWtyYjl2R2NlYzFlQlRWMFJCUmc#gid=1 (Ignore the block cost column, it's just pulling the current pos block cost from eve-c. Column B is the important part.)

A fuel block costs 11,824 isk based on that sheet. A non-faction, medium pos doing a single PT alchemy reaction in sov space will consume 15 fuel blocks per hour, 10 platinum per hour, and 100 cobalt per hour. There is enough cobalt in eve to safely discard the cost of the cobalt, as attempting to ship it in any reasonable quantity incurs more fuel cost than is profitable to export. Platinum is currently 3,505.81 isk in Jita, but we'll increase the price of platinum by 20% to account for a sixth use of platinum being added to the game, to 4,206.97 isk.

Costs:
* 15 fuel blocks: 177,360 isk
* 100 cobalt: free
* 10 platinum: 42,069.70 isk

Subtotal: 219,429.70 isk
Divide by 20 to get 10,971.49 isk per unit of plat tech


Now, working backwards, we consider technetium. The same medium tower in sov space doing a non-alchemy plat tech reaction.

The breakeven point for plat tech is 10,971 isk per unit. The simple reaction produces 200 plat tech per hour, so total isk grossed is 2,194,297 isk per hour.

Costs:
* 15 fuel blocks: 177,360 isk
* 100 platinum: 420,697 isk
* 100 technetium: 100X

Subtotal: 598,057 + 100X

With some simple algebra,

598,057 + 100X = 2,194,297
100X = 1,596,240
X = 15,962.40 isk per unit of technetium


So yeah, right now neodymium is 22,000 isk per unit, and it's likely to rise some after patch

and this is a CONSERVATIVE number based on an arguably optimistic value of 600 isk / unit on topes


This falls very short of your 80,000-81,000 isk per unit goal CCP Fozzie.
Let us know if there is anything we can do to help you get that fixed up so you can keep things where you want them.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc
#800 - 2012-07-27 03:31:26 UTC
Fozzie screwed up just a bit.

This is what you get for listening to pubbies.