These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New dev blog: Tech is fine l2p

First post First post
Author
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#641 - 2012-07-22 19:58:21 UTC
Yeah with 166,609 accessible moons in k-space systems that allow moon mining mods to be anchored, redistribution is an excellent idea

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#642 - 2012-07-22 20:00:19 UTC
It's almost as if people have forgotten how the old moneymoons were spread pretty evenly across all space, before CCP ****** it all up.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#643 - 2012-07-22 20:03:22 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
It's almost as if people have forgotten how the old moneymoons were spread pretty evenly across all space, before CCP ****** it all up.


"But I'm totally crossing my fingers because that means that my tungsten moon could suddenly become a tech or neo!"

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Dr 0wnage
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#644 - 2012-07-22 22:26:42 UTC
I see the logic behind this, but its still a reaction to the symptoms and not the problem itself. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt however as you say the real solution in coming.

Personally, i would like to see depleting moons with random spawns of new materials. Give all moons a finite amount of resources, and when depleted, they would respawn somewhere else in new eden. This should be quite simple to implement and would solve nearly all of our current moongoo problems.

-Rare goo being confined to one part of space would be solved by random seeding.
-Rare goo being controlled by only the largest alliances would be largely solved by the unknown locations of new goo deposits.

This system could allow WH systems to produce goo as well making moon surveying in unknown space a profession.

Adjusting respawn consistency and amounts would allow ccp to somewhat adjust the supply of goo for when asteroid belt mining is implemented.

I simply don't see any downsides to this idea...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#645 - 2012-07-22 22:27:58 UTC
Dr 0wnage wrote:
I see the logic behind this, but its still a reaction to the symptoms and not the problem itself. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt however as you say the real solution in coming.

Personally, i would like to see depleting moons with random spawns of new materials. Give all moons a finite amount of resources, and when depleted, they would respawn somewhere else in new eden. This should be quite simple to implement and would solve nearly all of our current moongoo problems.

-Rare goo being confined to one part of space would be solved by random seeding.
-Rare goo being controlled by only the largest alliances would be largely solved by the unknown locations of new goo deposits.

This system could allow WH systems to produce goo as well making moon surveying in unknown space a profession.

Adjusting respawn consistency and amounts would allow ccp to somewhat adjust the supply of goo for when asteroid belt mining is implemented.

I simply don't see any downsides to this idea...

Then let's make you scan a region or 3 every 3 months, let's see how long it takes before you commit eve suicide.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#646 - 2012-07-22 22:34:49 UTC
Dr 0wnage wrote:
.

This system could allow WH systems to produce goo as well making moon surveying in unknown space a profession.

..


Yea what harm could come from a money fountain that springs up in a wormhole thats completely unassailable right?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#647 - 2012-07-22 22:42:14 UTC
Dr 0wnage wrote:
I see the logic behind this, but its still a reaction to the symptoms and not the problem itself. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt however as you say the real solution in coming.

Personally, i would like to see depleting moons with random spawns of new materials. Give all moons a finite amount of resources, and when depleted, they would respawn somewhere else in new eden. This should be quite simple to implement and would solve nearly all of our current moongoo problems.

-Rare goo being confined to one part of space would be solved by random seeding.
-Rare goo being controlled by only the largest alliances would be largely solved by the unknown locations of new goo deposits.

This system could allow WH systems to produce goo as well making moon surveying in unknown space a profession.

Adjusting respawn consistency and amounts would allow ccp to somewhat adjust the supply of goo for when asteroid belt mining is implemented.

I simply don't see any downsides to this idea...


Random moonshifts just discourage spaceholding and territorial conquest and generally make 0.0 irritating for everyone out there.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Dr 0wnage
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#648 - 2012-07-22 22:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr 0wnage
Lord Zim wrote:
Then let's make you scan a region or 3 every 3 months, let's see how long it takes before you commit eve suicide.


You don't have to, there's people who will and will be more then happy to sell you the information.


Grath Telkin wrote:
Yea what harm could come from a money fountain that springs up in a wormhole thats completely unassailable right?


WH systems are far from unassailable. Yes, you can't take 20 erebus, 15 avatars, and 40 nyxs in to do it so i can see why you guys might have a problem with this...

Scatim Helicon wrote:
Random moonshifts just discourage spaceholding and territorial conquest and generally make 0.0 irritating for everyone out there.


Interesting how everyone seems to think moons are the only reason to hold space...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#649 - 2012-07-22 22:50:11 UTC
Dr 0wnage wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Then let's make you scan a region or 3 every 3 months, let's see how long it takes before you commit eve suicide.


You don't have to, there's people who will and will be more then happy to sell you the information.

There's certainly not enough grinding in the game as it is, let's MAKE MORE.

And :laffo: if you're going to even think this'll make tech (or any moongoo) any less of a limited supply.


Dr 0wnage wrote:
WH systems are far from unassailable. Yes, you can't take 20 erebus, 15 avatars, and 40 nyxs in to do it so i can see why you guys might have a problem with this...

Yes, let's make sure wormholes, which are already :laffo: profitable, are even more profitable.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Dr 0wnage
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#650 - 2012-07-22 22:57:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr 0wnage
What your missing Zim is that with a system like this, the supply of goo is adjustable... If something unexpected happens and one min becomes more valuable then it should be, all it takes is a tweak to the respawn rate and the problem is solved.

I will agree with you however that wormholes are already quite profitable. I was simply suggesting that with moons that would deplete, it would be alot easier to integrate them into WH systems as opposed to moons that don't.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#651 - 2012-07-22 23:07:50 UTC
And what you're missing is the downtime which'll happen, how much time is going to be spent tearing down POSes all over the place, what'll happen when JB towers happen to be on the new tech (or whatever it is) moon, what happens if someone's reaction or component manufacturing or supercap manufacturing POS etc etc etc is on the moon.

And this is before we even start talking about the act of actually finding the things, and you're also completely ignoring the fact that with this dynamic system there is absolutely no incentive at all to even contemplate trying to take someone's moneymoons (or even go to war over them).

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#652 - 2012-07-23 00:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Random shuffling and/or depletion is a very stupid idea.

It will not encourage more warfare. Why spend potentially billions in ships to take a moon which might (and very likely will if you don't want to screw with the rarity tables as well) become worthless in a few weeks? All it encourages is holding huge areas of unused space, just to give yourself a better chance of getting the rare spawns. Every moon you hold will be a lottery ticket, the more tickets you have the bigger chance of winning the jackpot. Which is completely opposite to what we (people who have a clue about how 0.0 works, as well as CCP) are trying to accomplish.

It will not benefit smaller alliances or corps. That moon in the arse end of Derelik you hold that nobody bothers to take away from you because lol tungsten? Yeah, next week it turns into something moderately valuable and you'll get to see what a fleet of titans looks like from up close. The bigger you are, the more people and alts can you throw at scanning moons, and the faster can you project force across EVE to put up a tower before anybody else does, the more moons you'll be able to grab. Victory or defeat in actual battle will be more or less irrelevant.

In order for the 0.0 ecosystem to work there need to be strategic targets to fight over. Whether that's moons or systems or planets or whatever it doesn't really matter, but no alliance will commit fleets of hundreds of ships just to watch the fireworks. Wealth should be determined by winning or losing battles, not by who gets the luck of the draw this month.
Amanda Sterling
Doomheim
#653 - 2012-07-23 00:50:52 UTC
Dr 0wnage wrote:
I see the logic behind this, but its still a reaction to the symptoms and not the problem itself. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt however as you say the real solution in coming.

Personally, i would like to see depleting moons with random spawns of new materials. Give all moons a finite amount of resources, and when depleted, they would respawn somewhere else in new eden. This should be quite simple to implement and would solve nearly all of our current moongoo problems.

-Rare goo being confined to one part of space would be solved by random seeding.
-Rare goo being controlled by only the largest alliances would be largely solved by the unknown locations of new goo deposits.

This system could allow WH systems to produce goo as well making moon surveying in unknown space a profession.

Adjusting respawn consistency and amounts would allow ccp to somewhat adjust the supply of goo for when asteroid belt mining is implemented.

I simply don't see any downsides to this idea...
The idea itself is a downside.

No.
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#654 - 2012-07-23 02:31:53 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Wocka Wocka!

Remember that if you like this change you should hit the "like" button on this post. I need to know if this is the kind of work the community is looking for. ;)


Wokka Wokka to you too.


Sadly you needed a second post for people to like who don't like the ideas and think the devs and crybabies in goonswarm need to learn to play. :p



Realistically, I think it needs to be changed, but the release value idea is the wrong path. It needs to be more PI like but instead of many into one, it needs to be one into many.




Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#655 - 2012-07-23 03:28:49 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Wocka Wocka!

Remember that if you like this change you should hit the "like" button on this post. I need to know if this is the kind of work the community is looking for. ;)
Why don't you get your "Yes Men" the CSM to rubber stamp your idea just like they rubber-stamped the Inventory UI change and completely negated any legitimate Sisi customer feedback in the eyes of CCP.

That turned out rather well for both CCP and your customers, don't you think?

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.

Sigras
Conglomo
#656 - 2012-07-23 03:45:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Akita T wrote:
steave435 wrote:
stuff

True, it's possible.

Let's say you want to get the absolute LOWEST value technetium is likely to settle down at.

So, let's downvalue cobalt back down to previous negligible levels of 500 ISK and assume platinum hovers at only around 5k and with a very pathetic 100m/mo/reactor (be it regular reaction of alchemy reaction, although it's more work to do an alchemy reaction than a regular reaction due to the extra refine and refill step).
1 "regular" non-alchemy PT should be 0.5 tech + 0.5 plat + 0.1 fuel cube + 700 ISK for 100m ISK/mo/reactor profit.
1 tech = 2 PT - (plat+0.2 fuel cube+1.4k ISK), give or take, so in other words, 1 tech = 2 * alchemy PT - 8.8k, roughly.
Let's make that 1 tech = 2 * PT - 9k.

A) for 20:1 alchemy
1 alchemy PT = 5k cobalt + 2.5k plat + 35k fuel + 14k profit = 56.5k ISK
1 tech = 105k ISK minimum

B) for 10:1 alchemy
1 alchemy PT = 2.5k cobalt + 2.5k plat + 17.5k fuel + 7k profit = 29.5k ISK
1 tech = 50k ISK minimum

C) for 5:1 alchemy
1 alchemy PT = 1.25k cobalt + 2.5k plat + 8.75k fuel + 3.5k profit = 16k ISK
1 tech = 23k ISK minimum


Mind you, we're talking negligible platinum price hike from current semi-speculated levels (unlikely but conceivable), lack of hike in fuel block costs (possible, but not certain), cobalt bottoming out to barely pre-speculation frenzy levels (also unlikely, but borderline possible), and a HORRIBLY LOW returns on work expended on the alchemy reactions.
So, those are quite literally the rock-bottom prices at which you would be crazy to sell at, with actual prices most likely well above that.
The previous post was closer to the other extreme, more of a top price in each scenario, whereas this is a bottom.


I guess my question is, who sold cobalt at 500 isk/unit? isnt that like 36 million a month before fuel costs?

I suppose you could assume these are guys who are using the tower for other things and simply using the minerals to offset the cost of the tower they had to have there anyway, but even a small tower costs 136 mil/month or so and costing you > 50% of your CPU to save 26% on fuel doesnt seem that great to me.

That being said, i think that adding alchemy wont really do anything except break the cartel on tech and return the material to its pre-cartel prices.

I do completely agree with the math; my own tells me that, if tower owners are happy with 100 mil/month, the price of PT will settle at max around 59,000 isk/unit assuming a steady cost of POS fuel and Platinum
Lady Flute
Ilmarinen Group
#657 - 2012-07-23 06:48:49 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Wocka Wocka!

Remember that if you like this change you should hit the "like" button on this post. I need to know if this is the kind of work the community is looking for. ;)


I love the idea, however I would also love it if you added a % chance for moons to spawn temporary (e.g. random number in range 100 to e.g. 10000000 x 100) units of the rarer goos. This equates to the natural processes where techtonic, weathering, or volcanic activity have altered the available ores, and the deposit so exposed can be mined out to exhaustion via extraction.

The moon goo market is so boring and dull because you survey the whole area you can access, get the moon(s) you want (or accept are the best you are going to get), then nothing changes unless you lose it or get better moons. If rarer resources appearead and were depeleted when used, then a prospecting gameplay would come into reality: "WTS moon location with survey results for 180,000 units of Technium, no sov".

A capital sized ship that can park off a moon and mine it would also be fun, particularly the bit about staying still in space for a long time :) But whatever else you have planned, variable spawns of rare materials could add a dynamic element to what is really a horribly boring system. Certain areas control certain minerals, and certain ships require silly amounts of some minerals making e.g. a Curse much cheaper to buy finished in some places than the market value of the goo needed to make the parts. That's just broken, and I aplaud that you are diving into the deep end on T2. So ... when can we see new ways to get T2 BPO's so we can compete with the super-rich who used thier free ISK machine to gather BPOs to themselves? Ugh
Inspiration
#658 - 2012-07-23 08:41:49 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Ahh, the sounds of a defeated forum combatant.


No it is a victory cry as you proven to everyone here you just can't deliver factual point in a discussion and are just here for trolling and free handouts. Does that come with frustration on my side as I wasted so many posts to get here...yes. I had rather has a meaningful discussion instead of a blip like you trying to ruin a game for everyone else.

But if that was your goal and it probably is...then cry victory yourself too, but know your just a pathetic troll no1 really cares about!

I am serious!

Inspiration
#659 - 2012-07-23 08:50:32 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Random shuffling and/or depletion is a very stupid idea.

It will not encourage more warfare. Why spend potentially billions in ships to take a moon which might (and very likely will if you don't want to screw with the rarity tables as well) become worthless in a few weeks? All it encourages is holding huge areas of unused space, just to give yourself a better chance of getting the rare spawns. Every moon you hold will be a lottery ticket, the more tickets you have the bigger chance of winning the jackpot. Which is completely opposite to what we (people who have a clue about how 0.0 works, as well as CCP) are trying to accomplish.

It will not benefit smaller alliances or corps. That moon in the arse end of Derelik you hold that nobody bothers to take away from you because lol tungsten? Yeah, next week it turns into something moderately valuable and you'll get to see what a fleet of titans looks like from up close. The bigger you are, the more people and alts can you throw at scanning moons, and the faster can you project force across EVE to put up a tower before anybody else does, the more moons you'll be able to grab. Victory or defeat in actual battle will be more or less irrelevant.

In order for the 0.0 ecosystem to work there need to be strategic targets to fight over. Whether that's moons or systems or planets or whatever it doesn't really matter, but no alliance will commit fleets of hundreds of ships just to watch the fireworks. Wealth should be determined by winning or losing battles, not by who gets the luck of the draw this month.


Think a little of the box instead of just axing it right off the bat. Your concern of space having a random value is not implied by the idea of depletion. Just as some regions are rich in one type of moon material, other are rich in others and change will be slow. Area control over where the good stuff "spawns" will take the space control issue out of the randomness you fear.

And please let us not use POS to moon mine, make it an activity involving people ships and a quick setup/abortion instead of static income involving towers only big alliances can defend!

There you go, everything addressed you took issue with.

I am serious!

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#660 - 2012-07-23 08:55:23 UTC
this will only end badly

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.