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Black Ops

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Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#101 - 2012-07-23 19:51:18 UTC
Chribba wrote:
ABRACADABSTRACTART wrote:
Chribba wrote:
Do want longer LY range.

I can't help but wonder why, Mr. Total Pacifist. Someone has pvp alts...

Nope sorry no PVP alt. Only for the sake of being able to open a Black portal covering Emperor station in Amarr haha since it's just outside range atm X



Black Ops is not just for PVP, black op transport rocks!.

Senex Legio
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#102 - 2012-07-23 19:52:35 UTC
ovenproofjet wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

So, when would this be coming out? Unfortunately, not for a while. As explained in the various blogs before, our current priority is to fix tech 1 ships as a whole before moving to more advanced hulls. That is because we need a solid frame of reference to rely on and compare hulls to before we can move to more delicate and complex ships, like Black Ops or tech 3 hulls.


Also don't forget this is just our long term plan for now, and things may change in the future. In all cases they are not forgotten, but will take time to get to.

Hope that helps!


Thank you for this response, as a member of one of the groups you mention that uses Black Ops all the time this is very encouraging.

Once T1 is sorted (and hopefully the drake nerfed!) could you please prioritise Black Ops in the T2 rebalancing. There isn't really any T2 class that is as broken as the Black Ops!!!


The Drake doesn't need nerfing. It could use a slight buff (increase speed slightly, reduce signature radius significantly)--take that completely irrational zealotry elsewhere, please.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Master Tron
Axis.
#103 - 2012-07-23 20:12:40 UTC
I thank CCP to answer this post.

If I should need to pick what thing would help more, then I say bridging people fuel usage, this is so many ways wrong Straight
Lunaleil Fournier
Perfusus Sanguine
Pandemic Horde
#104 - 2012-07-23 22:02:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunaleil Fournier
I've trained for blackops and but don't fly them due to cost/effectiveness. However, I'm very interested in flying them once their fixed.Sounds like you aren't sure where to take these ships, so let me offer my opinion:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:

And they aren't great at both: their raw HP is quite lower than tech 1 battleships (and tech 2 resistance boosts aren't stellar either), have less turret and missile hardpoints than tech 1 counterparts and remain more expensive to run, which doesn't make them appealing for direct engagement purposes. They also lack autonomy in their support role, as they are quite short ranged, fuel hungry and this issue is amplified by their small fuel bay forcing them to rely on other ships to resupply frequently during an operation.


The heart and soul of blackops is the ability to portal ships around and launch those surprise attacks. That's the role you should choose. It isn't even a choice. But simply having the ability to portal ships around effectively won't fix these ships. They will forever be a niche ship unless they can be viable on the battlefield. As you pointed out, they are inferior in many ways to their T1 counterparts, and this shows in combat.

They need to be T2 ships, with resistances, hitpoints, hardpoints, etc that match up with other T2 ships. I'd like to see them with the covert ops cloak so they can move around with their covert group - because once you get your covert group in place, you want to be able to move around with them. In exchange, their blackops battleship skill bonuses focus on portaling ability rather than weapon/fighting ability. That'll keep them from being overpowered, but still dangerous.
Emperor Ryan
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#105 - 2012-07-24 00:08:52 UTC
Lunaleil Fournier wrote:
I've trained for blackops and but don't fly them due to cost/effectiveness. However, I'm very interested in flying them once their fixed.Sounds like you aren't sure where to take these ships, so let me offer my opinion:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:

And they aren't great at both: their raw HP is quite lower than tech 1 battleships (and tech 2 resistance boosts aren't stellar either), have less turret and missile hardpoints than tech 1 counterparts and remain more expensive to run, which doesn't make them appealing for direct engagement purposes. They also lack autonomy in their support role, as they are quite short ranged, fuel hungry and this issue is amplified by their small fuel bay forcing them to rely on other ships to resupply frequently during an operation.


The heart and soul of blackops is the ability to portal ships around and launch those surprise attacks. That's the role you should choose. It isn't even a choice. But simply having the ability to portal ships around effectively won't fix these ships. They will forever be a niche ship unless they can be viable on the battlefield. As you pointed out, they are inferior in many ways to their T1 counterparts, and this shows in combat.

They need to be T2 ships, with resistances, hitpoints, hardpoints, etc that match up with other T2 ships. I'd like to see them with the covert ops cloak so they can move around with their covert group - because once you get your covert group in place, you want to be able to move around with them. In exchange, their blackops battleship skill bonuses focus on portaling ability rather than weapon/fighting ability. That'll keep them from being overpowered, but still dangerous.



Yeah, Let's just offer opinion about something you don't actually fly why don't we...

Buff to the hit points would be a good start, The Resistances are something that are slightly better than t1 but not near t2 Quality, however with decent slot layouts you can still fit what is needed.

Coverts Ops cloak - Never, It would make the ship OP (Don't get me wrong i'd love to warp cloaked lose the cloaked speed bonus and get even more damage) of course something that the ship lacks is a 'Role Bonus' If the role bonus were made to a set cloaked speed bonus. would free up one of the bonuses for something damage orientated allowing the ships to deal significantly more damage.

The whole point behind these ships is they are very powerful tools for specialist situations, for competent more seasoned pilots of the game. either keep it's current damage or increase it, but don't lower it that's just working back-towards the stone-age
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#106 - 2012-07-24 01:08:56 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
...

The role dropped out of the Black Ops would then be moved to a new class in the tech 2 battleship range to replace for the loss.

...!


We don't need another 2, gives Caldari a new Rokh scale as you must. It is such a cool battleship, it has that "if we run out of ammo we can RAM them!" look Cool

I'm an American, English is my second language...
ovenproofjet
Gallifrey Industries
#107 - 2012-07-24 07:25:34 UTC
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
ovenproofjet wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

So, when would this be coming out? Unfortunately, not for a while. As explained in the various blogs before, our current priority is to fix tech 1 ships as a whole before moving to more advanced hulls. That is because we need a solid frame of reference to rely on and compare hulls to before we can move to more delicate and complex ships, like Black Ops or tech 3 hulls.


Also don't forget this is just our long term plan for now, and things may change in the future. In all cases they are not forgotten, but will take time to get to.

Hope that helps!


Thank you for this response, as a member of one of the groups you mention that uses Black Ops all the time this is very encouraging.

Once T1 is sorted (and hopefully the drake nerfed!) could you please prioritise Black Ops in the T2 rebalancing. There isn't really any T2 class that is as broken as the Black Ops!!!


The Drake doesn't need nerfing. It could use a slight buff (increase speed slightly, reduce signature radius significantly)--take that completely irrational zealotry elsewhere, please.


A faster Drake with a small sig radius.....hmmmm. What does that remind me of? Oh yes, the Tengu. Something else in need of some rebalancing.

Anyways, back on topic. The Illuminatii were Black Ops hot dropping last night and we discovered that all our Black Ops pilots fly Redeemers (wonder why that is)! So, we decided to make a conga line Roll Thats all for now
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#108 - 2012-07-24 08:05:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
yay words!



I think the problem can be viewed if you look at the hole ship line(s). In friggs its clear 1 logistic/scout, 1 surprise offence , one with a different skill that dose Ewar. But in just one hull up it gets weird one that dose Ewar/logistics and one that dose damage(kinda?) and Ewar no cloak(like a electronic attack frigg). All in one skill. So it absorbs the electronic attack roll and drops the surprise offence roll. Then finally you get to BO witch is just kinda logistics and each race 's pull on that, one hull one skill.
I think it should stay truer all the way up with 2 with sneak 1 support 1 offence and a 3ed in another skill that dose Ewar all out no sneak. Then take that up to the BO have one for JD'n and a little Ewar, one that just dose surprise offence and a 3ed that dose not cloak and go's all Ewar. I think it's simple, has flow, and is just all around more useful.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
kerjin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2012-07-24 10:05:14 UTC
UPDATE Ship SET Fuel_Bay_Capacity=2000, Maximum_Jump_Range=4 WHERE Type="BlackOps"
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
#110 - 2012-07-24 10:50:17 UTC
Blackops are perfect for what they do, they do not need changing and you guys clearly aren't using them to their strength. Good luck finding out how.
Astald Ohtar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#111 - 2012-07-24 11:23:51 UTC
Emperor Ryan wrote:


CCP Yitterbium,

Mildly Intoxicated which is likely one of the most active Clandestine Warfare alliances preforming black ops drops on a daily basis in the as you described as the 'out-of-the-box thinking' way to make them effective would appreciate the opportunity to help influence the future of these ships. The challenge of making them worth there price-tag is a difficult and time consuming task however they are in there current form (besides the Widow and the Sin) which are in need of some adjustments they offer some of the most intensive PvP this game has to offer.

However it should be clear that Black Ops BS, and the role they preform is an extremely specialist role in this game, and that factor should not be removed from the ship, though it's defiantly agreeable that change is needed. Mildly would be honored to speak with CCP in regards to the current use/and possible future use of these ships because we love these ships!


Most active Clandestine warfare dropping carebears tengus in anoms with a dozen of black ops .

Funny how black ops operations turned into Ninja-kills-fest from some clueless carebears . You don't see any BOs in actual fights , aside from some widows cloaked a 100k from low sec gates .
Grarr Dexx
Now Look What You've Made Me Do
#112 - 2012-07-24 11:42:22 UTC
As a long time black ops pilot, the dev post raises some concern with me. I'm not sure that forcing me to afford another black ops capable battleship just so both can enforce their roles with maximum capability is the right way to go. Black ops gangs are already small and specialized, and having one player sacrifice himself to be nothing but a mobile command center / transportation facilitator is going to cause some ire.
dethleffs
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#113 - 2012-07-24 11:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: dethleffs
Grarr Dexx wrote:
As a long time black ops pilot, the dev post raises some concern with me. I'm not sure that forcing me to afford another black ops capable battleship just so both can enforce their roles with maximum capability is the right way to go. Black ops gangs are already small and specialized, and having one player sacrifice himself to be nothing but a mobile command center / transportation facilitator is going to cause some ire.



But you already have a cloaky hauler tracing your steps, so if he could be in the "mobile command centre" nothing is lost, right?

Given that that ship would have enough fuel for multiply jumps of course.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#114 - 2012-07-24 11:49:02 UTC
Black ops?

CCP is racist!
Grarr Dexx
Now Look What You've Made Me Do
#115 - 2012-07-24 12:06:45 UTC
dethleffs wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
As a long time black ops pilot, the dev post raises some concern with me. I'm not sure that forcing me to afford another black ops capable battleship just so both can enforce their roles with maximum capability is the right way to go. Black ops gangs are already small and specialized, and having one player sacrifice himself to be nothing but a mobile command center / transportation facilitator is going to cause some ire.



But you already have a cloaky hauler tracing your steps, so if he could be in the "mobile command centre" nothing is lost, right?

Given that that ship would have enough fuel for multiply jumps of course.


I would rather trust my alt with a hundred million isk hauler than with a billion isk battleship. Lets not forget the training times!
ovenproofjet
Gallifrey Industries
#116 - 2012-07-24 12:35:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ovenproofjet
Astald Ohtar wrote:
Emperor Ryan wrote:


CCP Yitterbium,

Mildly Intoxicated which is likely one of the most active Clandestine Warfare alliances preforming black ops drops on a daily basis in the as you described as the 'out-of-the-box thinking' way to make them effective would appreciate the opportunity to help influence the future of these ships. The challenge of making them worth there price-tag is a difficult and time consuming task however they are in there current form (besides the Widow and the Sin) which are in need of some adjustments they offer some of the most intensive PvP this game has to offer.

However it should be clear that Black Ops BS, and the role they preform is an extremely specialist role in this game, and that factor should not be removed from the ship, though it's defiantly agreeable that change is needed. Mildly would be honored to speak with CCP in regards to the current use/and possible future use of these ships because we love these ships!


Most active Clandestine warfare dropping carebears tengus in anoms with a dozen of black ops .

Funny how black ops operations turned into Ninja-kills-fest from some clueless carebears . You don't see any BOs in actual fights , aside from some widows cloaked a 100k from low sec gates .


Do I detect some butt hurt? Sure, it's not what you'd call "real" PvP (not that "real PvP" means anything in Eve anyway), but it's fun, we enjoy our little corner of the sandbox and frankly, we had to pay for the alliance tournament somehow. Might as well have someone else's carebears make the ISK for us Twisted
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2012-07-24 13:03:54 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
You have several problems to solve before touching BLOPS.

-People tend to pvp less because clone insurance?

-People tend to not train BLOPS because takes too long?

-Because there's nothing you can do with a BLOPS you can't do with a cheaper ship, except hot drop raters at 10:1 and this is maybe some game play style only a few enjoy?

I think you'll have to wait a couple years until battleships and T2 variants are looked at, battleships are not worthy to train for anything else than pimpy rating/mission BS, and this is the problem that needs to be solved in the first place.
Make you desire train battle ships because they're good and not because it's carrier prerequisite or just to get a pirate version to kill red crosses.
What?

You are spot-on regarding clone costs. Even without implants, the cost of a high-SP clone sometimes exceeds tech 2 ship hull costs. Not worth putting in harm's way.

But you are way off-target when it comes to the training for Black Ops BS. Most any carrier pilot can cross-train right into a BLOPS w/minimal effort.

Furthermore, no other ship aside from a Titan can bridge other ships to cyno beacons, covert or otherwise.

Lastly, BLOPS are used for far more than simple ratter ganks. I am sorry that you have experienced their use in such a limited fashion.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#118 - 2012-07-24 14:38:47 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
Chribba wrote:
ABRACADABSTRACTART wrote:
Chribba wrote:
Do want longer LY range.

I can't help but wonder why, Mr. Total Pacifist. Someone has pvp alts...

Nope sorry no PVP alt. Only for the sake of being able to open a Black portal covering Emperor station in Amarr haha since it's just outside range atm X



Black Ops is not just for PVP, black op transport rocks!.

I think what you're looking for is a jump freighter.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kieron VonDeux
#119 - 2012-07-24 14:48:34 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
Chribba wrote:
ABRACADABSTRACTART wrote:
Chribba wrote:
Do want longer LY range.

I can't help but wonder why, Mr. Total Pacifist. Someone has pvp alts...

Nope sorry no PVP alt. Only for the sake of being able to open a Black portal covering Emperor station in Amarr haha since it's just outside range atm X



Black Ops is not just for PVP, black op transport rocks!.

I think what you're looking for is a jump freighter.


It's called thinking outside the box.
AetomHaert Mother
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2012-07-24 15:37:15 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Back from vacation and thought this thread could use some dev love.


Yes, Black Ops definitely need some attention; the main problem with them is the lack of role focus. Some (like the Redeemer or Window) are trying to achieve a purpose directly on the battlefield, similar with recons by having an electronic warfare or damage related bonus. On top of that, they also are trying to fulfill a fleet support role with their cyno capability, which is quite in contradiction with the previous one.

And they aren't great at both: their raw HP is quite lower than tech 1 battleships (and tech 2 resistance boosts aren't stellar either), have less turret and missile hardpoints than tech 1 counterparts and remain more expensive to run, which doesn't make them appealing for direct engagement purposes. They also lack autonomy in their support role, as they are quite short ranged, fuel hungry and this issue is amplified by their small fuel bay forcing them to rely on other ships to resupply frequently during an operation.

The current plan is to take one these two listed roles out of the Black Ops ship class and reshape them to do the remaining one well. If they are disruption ships using EW, they should have more presence on the battlefield for their pricetag. If they are support tools for surprise attacks and small gang movement into enemy space, then they should have the proper bay, range and tools to do so accordingly.

The role dropped out of the Black Ops would then be moved to a new class in the tech 2 battleship range to replace for the loss.

We acknowledge some entities out there are using Black Ops with great effect when backed up with the proper organization, structure and out-of-the-box thinking to make use of them in unorthodox situations. While we don't want to take that away, Black Ops should be more effective without such heavy commitment into them (a statistic query we ran at the beginning of this year shown there are more Titan than Block Ops pilot on TQ). They should be great force multiplier tools for small groups to take on larger ones by surprise, and should be able to do so relatively well without relying on a dedicated support structure.

So, when would this be coming out? Unfortunately, not for a while. As explained in the various blogs before, our current priority is to fix tech 1 ships as a whole before moving to more advanced hulls. That is because we need a solid frame of reference to rely on and compare hulls to before we can move to more delicate and complex ships, like Black Ops or tech 3 hulls.


Also don't forget this is just our long term plan for now, and things may change in the future. In all cases they are not forgotten, but will take time to get to.

Hope that helps!


Here, I will make it easy for you. Double the fuel bay, give them all a remote rep range bonus and boost the resists to bring them in line with other Tech 2 ships. Give the Redeemer an ewar bonus so it can be useful (think Bahlgorn without the webs) and there you go. Treat them sort of like mini carriers. Remote reps grant survivabilty, and ewar grants force multiplication. The extra fuel does not allow them all access without impunity, but does give the ship a little more allowance for expedient movement without the complexities of dropping cans for fuel etc. during the very short covops cyno window.

Here is the trick CCP, you don't have to buff or nerf something in leaps and bounds in order to improve balance. Simply making a small change, giving it a month to simmer and see the results then gently nudge again will suffice. See what you did with incursions? Your good habits should be rewarded. Do things like that. With a light hand and a strong willpower you will not break the game. I promise. So how about it? Give us just one of the above suggestions, see if it makes the BLOPS OP and then work from there.