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Bible bashing

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Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#181 - 2012-07-17 20:37:44 UTC
Ginseng Jita wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:

Considering much of the US was formed by a religious group,...


That is what religious followers would have you believe. It isn't true in the least. The founding fathers of the US didn't want religion in any shape or form to be involved with the government - for fear that they would encounter the same issues England had with the Church of England, or the French had with the Pope in Rome, or any number of countries that allowed relgions to dictate laws. Sorry, the US was not founded on so called "Judeo" Christianity - at all.


You got that backward. They did not want the government interfering with religion, like the Church Of England ect ect.


They held bible studies and mass in government buildings, and they opened discussions with prayer. What they did not want to have happen was the government come into a house of worship and tell the people they have to believe a certain way. You can see the repercussions of this in the fact that churches are not taxed. Because the ability ot tax could be used to squalch religions freedoms.

This is mostly US centric idea however.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#182 - 2012-07-17 20:38:27 UTC
Fiona Tsero wrote:
Kievan Arakyd wrote:
1. the only worthy human endeavor is science. it is the only thing that will save this terrible species.

Yup, WWI and WWII, along with the millions of deaths caused by both, took place in this age of science. Don't forget it was science that created the Atomic Bomb, and science alone will never be able to use its discoveries properly.

Kievan Arakyd wrote:
2. Except that, it doesnt seek to just do that for its adherents, but for everyone else too.

Of course, if you thought something was genocide, would you stand by and let it happen?

Kievan Arakyd wrote:
4. Marriage is a legal contract. You should be allowed to marry whoever you want, even multiple people, without persecution.

Marriage has been around before the establishment of government and laws. As such, it is more than a simple legal contract.

Kievan Arakyd wrote:
5. The majority of religious groups do just that today, state that science is all wrong. see, climate change deniers, antievolutionists. We should throw these people into a volcano, because gravity and plate tectonics are just theories right?

While some groups do hate science, it is possible that they hate it because what science preaches as true goes against what they teach. Instead of attacking science with reasonable arguments, they attack it with foolishness and fearmongering. These groups cannot stand the test of time. Once again: true religion and true reason will be infinitely compatible, since both stem from the same source.

As for 'antievolutionists', I suppose I would be one, but not because the Bible tells me so. I have yet to see enough evidence of trans-species evolution. There are too many unanswered questions with regards to this for me to agree with the idea.

Trans-species evolution? I'm actually afraid to ask.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#183 - 2012-07-17 20:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Corina Jarr
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Kievan Arakyd wrote:

1. the only worthy human endeavor is science. it is the only thing that will save this terrible species.
2. Except that, it doesnt seek to just do that for its adherents, but for everyone else too.
3. I agree with this.
4. Marriage is a legal contract. You should be allowed to marry whoever you want, even multiple people, without persecution.
5. The majority of religious groups do just that today, state that science is all wrong. see, climate change deniers, antievolutionists. We should throw these people into a volcano, because gravity and plate tectonics are just theories right?
6. Not just some, but most.
7. All associations of people seek power, not limited to religions.

1) or kill us allLol
2) thats fair, though does not apply to all religions.
4) fully agree, and some religions follow that (a legal marriage being separate from the religious one).
5) some do not have a problem with all science, just the theories (and they are just theories) that conflict with their beliefs. Whats wrong with not believing a theory that you have an alternate explanation for?
6) personally think its about even
7) absolutely.

Please tell me you understand the meaning of the word "theory" in a scientific context? Because you have made it sound terribly like you do not.

Yes. It is as it sounds, an explanation of an observation based on evidence, but not yet fully proven. There may or may not be other theories (whether scientific or not).
Also in a scientific sense, it must have a testable and repeatable hypothesis to be valid.

It is still limited to being only an interpretation of evidence.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#184 - 2012-07-17 20:41:28 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Trans-species evolution? I'm actually afraid to ask.

I think he means a significant enough change to allow for the formation of a new species, likely referring to more complex organisms that bacteria.

just a guess.
Fiona Tsero
Doomheim
#185 - 2012-07-17 20:45:09 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Trans-species evolution? I'm actually afraid to ask.

I think he means a significant enough change to allow for the formation of a new species, likely referring to more complex organisms that bacteria.

just a guess.


Or any one species going to another species at all.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#186 - 2012-07-17 20:48:04 UTC
Fiona Tsero wrote:
As for 'antievolutionists', I suppose I would be one, but not because the Bible tells me so. I have yet to see enough evidence of trans-species evolution...However, there is enough evidence to support the idea that change over time does happen within populations of single species.


Either evolution happens, or God has perpetrated a MASSIVE hoax on us by creating a consistently-layered fossil record all over the world that has convinced thousands upon thousands of people who actually STUDY these things that evolution has been going on for billions of years.

So which is it? Evolution, or God the Deceiver?

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#187 - 2012-07-17 20:48:12 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Kievan Arakyd wrote:

1. the only worthy human endeavor is science. it is the only thing that will save this terrible species.
2. Except that, it doesnt seek to just do that for its adherents, but for everyone else too.
3. I agree with this.
4. Marriage is a legal contract. You should be allowed to marry whoever you want, even multiple people, without persecution.
5. The majority of religious groups do just that today, state that science is all wrong. see, climate change deniers, antievolutionists. We should throw these people into a volcano, because gravity and plate tectonics are just theories right?
6. Not just some, but most.
7. All associations of people seek power, not limited to religions.

1) or kill us allLol
2) thats fair, though does not apply to all religions.
4) fully agree, and some religions follow that (a legal marriage being separate from the religious one).
5) some do not have a problem with all science, just the theories (and they are just theories) that conflict with their beliefs. Whats wrong with not believing a theory that you have an alternate explanation for?
6) personally think its about even
7) absolutely.

Please tell me you understand the meaning of the word "theory" in a scientific context? Because you have made it sound terribly like you do not.

Yes. It is as it sounds, an explanation of an observation based on evidence, but not yet fully proven. There may or may not be other theories (whether scientific or not).
Also in a scientific sense, it must have a testable and repeatable hypothesis to be valid.

It is still limited to being only an interpretation of evidence.

You might find this interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory


Generally if something is declared a theory, it is in layman's terms a fact.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#188 - 2012-07-17 20:51:18 UTC
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#189 - 2012-07-17 20:51:28 UTC
Fiona Tsero wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Trans-species evolution? I'm actually afraid to ask.

I think he means a significant enough change to allow for the formation of a new species, likely referring to more complex organisms that bacteria.

just a guess.


Or any one species going to another species at all.

One species does not give birth to another species, it is a gradual process taking millions of years.

Even by ramping up selection pressures like we do to breed dogs you will not witness one species give birth to another.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#190 - 2012-07-17 20:51:36 UTC
Fiona Tsero wrote:

While some groups do hate science, it is possible that they hate it because what science preaches as true goes against what they teach. Instead of attacking science with reasonable arguments, they attack it with foolishness and fearmongering. These groups cannot stand the test of time. Once again: true religion and true reason will be infinitely compatible, since both stem from the same source.

As for 'antievolutionists', I suppose I would be one, but not because the Bible tells me so. I have yet to see enough evidence of trans-species evolution. There are too many unanswered questions with regards to this for me to agree with the idea.

EDIT: However, there is enough evidence to support the idea that change over time does happen within populations of single species.


Science, mans attempt to understand God's creation. While acting in the image of God, logic and understanding. I am a member of a holiness church in the USA, and medical science is seen as a miraculous God given event. As are other sciences. The only issue I see is evolution being propped up as fact when the fossil record does not support the theory behind it. If evolution was the result of millions of minor changes over a long stretch of time. You would expect to see millions of variations of humans and animals in the fossil record. Currently we have only found steps that require a leap of faith to connect as related to one another.


There are also theories pertaining to this, but all are unsupported at this point.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#191 - 2012-07-17 20:53:25 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

I'm not sure I'd argue it gives you "more", I mean more of what exactly? It's just a difference of opinion based on the interpretation (or ignorance) of the facts known by an individual.

It would be interesting to see if there's any correlation between perceived quality of life and religiosity though. But IIRC there is in most countries a negative correlation between religiosity, personal income and level of education. There is also, at least in America, a higher chance of an individual in prison being religious than one who is not in prison.

Whilst it is an interesting thought, none of the statistics I've seen link religion to a higher degree of satisfaction with ones life. Seeing religiosty plotted against suicide rates would be pretty fascinating in this regard.

Also, why is this thread not locked yet?



You are looking for something tangible or material. You will not find it. It is about strength from within and the belief that anything is possible. If you would like an excellent example MSN had a video the other day where a elderly woman found the strength to not only face her sons killer, but she forgave him and in fact those 2 live together now. Between his time reflecting and her guidance now he can see that path once more. In essence her strength is giving him strength. There are many prime examples such as that and I hope that you see more within time. Every good act makes us better as a whole.

Do you have any evidence to support your hypothesis that atheists are incapable, or less likely to exhibit, this kind of behavior? Because without that, your story has little relevance to the original question I posed.



I give you exhibit A...Ginseng. All joking aside, again, you are looking for something tangible to reflect upon. There is no law saying that a non religious man is less capable of performing the same act and heaven forbid that I would ever make a claim as such. I try to think of teachings as a tool of guidance. Its like instructions, they may be right there but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to use them.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#192 - 2012-07-17 20:54:59 UTC
Fiona Tsero wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Trans-species evolution? I'm actually afraid to ask.

I think he means a significant enough change to allow for the formation of a new species, likely referring to more complex organisms that bacteria.

just a guess.


Or any one species going to another species at all.


Did you know there are some breeds of dogs which cannot produce viable offspring when mated? Beagles and Irish Setters, for example, almost never produce puppies at all. As one of the more common definitions of species involves the ability to reproduce, it seems we're looking at the beginning of a divergence in the species. It's quite possible that the artificial selection placed upon dogs has driven their evolution fast enough that we can actually document the start of an divergence in the past few hundred years.

Evolution generally takes millenia. We only came up with the idea less than 200 years ago. Just what are you expecting? A chimp to have a human baby? That's not how it works.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#193 - 2012-07-17 20:55:13 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Fiona Tsero wrote:
As for 'antievolutionists', I suppose I would be one, but not because the Bible tells me so. I have yet to see enough evidence of trans-species evolution...However, there is enough evidence to support the idea that change over time does happen within populations of single species.


Either evolution happens, or God has perpetrated a MASSIVE hoax on us by creating a consistently-layered fossil record all over the world that has convinced thousands upon thousands of people who actually STUDY these things that evolution has been going on for billions of years.

So which is it? Evolution, or God the Deceiver?


Been awhile since I've seen the either/or fallacy. Its neither.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#194 - 2012-07-17 20:56:26 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

I'm not sure I'd argue it gives you "more", I mean more of what exactly? It's just a difference of opinion based on the interpretation (or ignorance) of the facts known by an individual.

It would be interesting to see if there's any correlation between perceived quality of life and religiosity though. But IIRC there is in most countries a negative correlation between religiosity, personal income and level of education. There is also, at least in America, a higher chance of an individual in prison being religious than one who is not in prison.

Whilst it is an interesting thought, none of the statistics I've seen link religion to a higher degree of satisfaction with ones life. Seeing religiosty plotted against suicide rates would be pretty fascinating in this regard.

Also, why is this thread not locked yet?



You are looking for something tangible or material. You will not find it. It is about strength from within and the belief that anything is possible. If you would like an excellent example MSN had a video the other day where a elderly woman found the strength to not only face her sons killer, but she forgave him and in fact those 2 live together now. Between his time reflecting and her guidance now he can see that path once more. In essence her strength is giving him strength. There are many prime examples such as that and I hope that you see more within time. Every good act makes us better as a whole.

Do you have any evidence to support your hypothesis that atheists are incapable, or less likely to exhibit, this kind of behavior? Because without that, your story has little relevance to the original question I posed.



I give you exhibit A...Ginseng. All joking aside, again, you are looking for something tangible to reflect upon. There is no law saying that a non religious man is less capable of performing the same act and heaven forbid that I would ever make a claim as such. I try to think of teachings as a tool of guidance. Its like instructions, they may be right there but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to use them.

So basically you are retracting your original statement?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#195 - 2012-07-17 20:57:35 UTC
Ate my post...

Annoying Forum...
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#196 - 2012-07-17 20:57:48 UTC
This thread is further proof that people will complain about anything

No good deed goes unpunished
Kievan Arakyd
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2012-07-17 20:58:02 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Kievan Arakyd wrote:

1. the only worthy human endeavor is science. it is the only thing that will save this terrible species.
2. Except that, it doesnt seek to just do that for its adherents, but for everyone else too.
3. I agree with this.
4. Marriage is a legal contract. You should be allowed to marry whoever you want, even multiple people, without persecution.
5. The majority of religious groups do just that today, state that science is all wrong. see, climate change deniers, antievolutionists. We should throw these people into a volcano, because gravity and plate tectonics are just theories right?
6. Not just some, but most.
7. All associations of people seek power, not limited to religions.


5) some do not have a problem with all science, just the theories (and they are just theories) that conflict with their beliefs. Whats wrong with not believing a theory that you have an alternate explanation for?


The problem with theories is just that, the word theory. In common usage the word theory means something quite different than the scientific term theory. When you say theory, you make it seem like it was something someone pulled out of their ass. In science, a theory is something that has had DECADES of thought, experiment, and other research poured into it, including peer review. On alternate explanations: this is where it gets twisted, as these are the ones that are usually pulled from the ass, and are designed to explain a preconceived notion, ie religion.

Scientific theory is NOT up for debate (or atleast in the way you suggest) or subject to your opinion.

Got my Dust514 key...
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#198 - 2012-07-17 20:58:15 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

I'm not sure I'd argue it gives you "more", I mean more of what exactly? It's just a difference of opinion based on the interpretation (or ignorance) of the facts known by an individual.

It would be interesting to see if there's any correlation between perceived quality of life and religiosity though. But IIRC there is in most countries a negative correlation between religiosity, personal income and level of education. There is also, at least in America, a higher chance of an individual in prison being religious than one who is not in prison.

Whilst it is an interesting thought, none of the statistics I've seen link religion to a higher degree of satisfaction with ones life. Seeing religiosty plotted against suicide rates would be pretty fascinating in this regard.

Also, why is this thread not locked yet?



You are looking for something tangible or material. You will not find it. It is about strength from within and the belief that anything is possible. If you would like an excellent example MSN had a video the other day where a elderly woman found the strength to not only face her sons killer, but she forgave him and in fact those 2 live together now. Between his time reflecting and her guidance now he can see that path once more. In essence her strength is giving him strength. There are many prime examples such as that and I hope that you see more within time. Every good act makes us better as a whole.

Do you have any evidence to support your hypothesis that atheists are incapable, or less likely to exhibit, this kind of behavior? Because without that, your story has little relevance to the original question I posed.



I give you exhibit A...Ginseng. All joking aside, again, you are looking for something tangible to reflect upon. There is no law saying that a non religious man is less capable of performing the same act and heaven forbid that I would ever make a claim as such. I try to think of teachings as a tool of guidance. Its like instructions, they may be right there but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to use them.

So basically you are retracting your original statement?



I didn't make the original statement.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#199 - 2012-07-17 20:58:29 UTC
Quote:



I give you exhibit A...Ginseng. All joking aside, again, you are looking for something tangible to reflect upon. There is no law saying that a non religious man is less capable of performing the same act and heaven forbid that I would ever make a claim as such. I try to think of teachings as a tool of guidance. Its like instructions, they may be right there but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to use them.



Expect that you can be 'good' without religion. And it's been happening everywhere for some time. The re-ocurring theme in Christianity is "You can never be good enough, because even your good deeds are based on selfish desires"


Also props to the OP for creating a religious discussion with his whine about containers in space.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#200 - 2012-07-17 21:01:56 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Fiona Tsero wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Trans-species evolution? I'm actually afraid to ask.

I think he means a significant enough change to allow for the formation of a new species, likely referring to more complex organisms that bacteria.

just a guess.


Or any one species going to another species at all.


Did you know there are some breeds of dogs which cannot produce viable offspring when mated? Beagles and Irish Setters, for example, almost never produce puppies at all. As one of the more common definitions of species involves the ability to reproduce, it seems we're looking at the beginning of a divergence in the species. It's quite possible that the artificial selection placed upon dogs has driven their evolution fast enough that we can actually document the start of an divergence in the past few hundred years.

Evolution generally takes millenia. We only came up with the idea less than 200 years ago. Just what are you expecting? A chimp to have a human baby? That's not how it works.

By the sounds of it Fiona isn't talking about speciation, we've witness that and even forced it to occur in the past.

I presume she is either trolling or genuinely believes evolution involves a point at which one species gives birth to another.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]