These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

On the baseliner masses and CONCORD
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2012-07-17 15:09:07 UTC
Rogue Integer wrote:
Of course I'm not advocating pointless genocide. Anyone who reads that into my statement reveals more about their own fears than my intentions. Instead, we must sweep away the antiquated social structures - the national governments, if you will. The people themselves must in turn be allowed or even helped to evolve, just as we have.

And yes, this means that the less evolved, more regressive nations need elimination first. Those that have made an effort to leave the Dark Ages behind may still have useful bits in them that can be salvaged, but those that center entirely on useless old ideas serve no purpose.

Evolution and knowledge are worth that price.


Oh right. It was not that obvious in the first place. I might still think that such zeal could prove to be counterproductive. Change will happen eventually, in time. If things are rushed, something will inevitably break in the process.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#22 - 2012-07-17 15:10:08 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
The problem lies not within Dark Age sovereignties, but with antique sovereignties. I am talking about Gallente Federation and Minmatar Republic, who use the most ancient and ineffective approach to management: democracy.


The Republic is not a democracy. We tried it.... it didnt work for us.

Might want to do some research next time, hun.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-07-17 15:29:17 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

Easily? The application of logical thinking while putting aside quaint notions of patriotism?


Don't be so dull, I'd think you a better man than that.

You obviously think that your own conclusion is logical, that goes without saying.

And of course you think patriotism is quaint or else... well, I'm not going to insult your intelligence by finishing that for you.

But how, with such ease and your logical thinking, did you come to your belief?

Tell me what I'm not seeing that is clearly right in front of me.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Rogue Integer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-07-17 15:31:44 UTC
The primary problem with Sansha's Nation is that Sansha sees capsuleers as a mistake to be fixed. He sees us as the problem (or at least a large part of it) rather than the solution.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-07-17 15:36:42 UTC
Rogue Integer wrote:
The primary problem with Sansha's Nation is that Sansha sees capsuleers as a mistake to be fixed. He sees us as the problem (or at least a large part of it) rather than the solution.


That must be the other primary problem besides: everything.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Rogue Integer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2012-07-17 15:40:50 UTC
That's not a particularly useful or cogent analysis. Maybe you could drill down a little?
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-07-17 15:47:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Halete
The statement that 'everything' is disagreeable about the Nation is as reductionist as it can get. I hate when somebody asks me to narrow down 'everything' because it is at once fully encompassing whilst also being as succint as possible.

With this in mind, do know that I would've come to the defense of the Nation, had it not started to assault civillian populations. Tiberious will argue that the Empires struck the first blow, but it was Sansha who built a military to strike out against them.

If you wish to speak with me on the matter further, then I would invite both you and Tibbers to speak with me when I become more available.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Logan Fyreite
Grim Bit Interface
#28 - 2012-07-17 16:01:13 UTC
Rogue,

You drive a critical point home here, one that, just as some of these capsuleers are doing, the baseliner masses do as well. They think themselves and their current situation, the pinacle of evolution, of thought, and their leaders are 'rightful leaders.' They all have failed to see the simple truth, one that has long been evident to some, that there is a better life out there for those of us who can, no, dare to reach for it and take it.

While STIMULUS is widely regarded as an anarchist organization, I think that truth of it's path is far too cloudy to simple state with one word like that. Your sentiments seem to fall well in line with ours, we use violence as a force to levy awareness to the possibilities for the future. We try to force capsuleers especially to forget the loyalties of their parents.

If we are not the uplifted, chosen few, destined to blaze a trail for the rest of the worlds, then much is truly lost. Even if the majority here fear your words and the truth they hold, know there are others who are not so spooked. I am honestly encouraged to see others finding their way as I have.
Rogue Integer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2012-07-17 16:10:44 UTC
Pilot Fyreite, I agree with that goal, but I'm not convinced that violence is the best answer. That is, somewhat less explosive efforts might bear more fruit: political efforts, scientific advancement, or other subtle methods behind closed doors.

Not to mention, of course, providing a functioning example of a better way.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#30 - 2012-07-17 16:11:53 UTC
Halete wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

Easily? The application of logical thinking while putting aside quaint notions of patriotism?


Don't be so dull, I'd think you a better man than that.

You obviously think that your own conclusion is logical, that goes without saying.

And of course you think patriotism is quaint or else... well, I'm not going to insult your intelligence by finishing that for you.

But how, with such ease and your logical thinking, did you come to your belief?

Tell me what I'm not seeing that is clearly right in front of me.


1) Humanity, through a combination of its natural intelligence and inbuilt desire and will to murder eachother occasionally builds or utilizes weapons of such destructive capability that it risks destroying itself as a whole. Numerous times in history we have reached this point.
2) Humanity has so far managed to survive through the two fold process of further technological innovations (It doesn't matter that a nuclear arsenal can wipe out a planet if the species is spread over multiple planets. It doesn't matter that we can blow up a star if we are in numerous star systems. There is a biological weapon? We can genetically implant immunity into the next generation quite easily and into ourselves with only a little more fuss. And so forth, etc) and societal evolution.
3) Societies which successfully evolve survive. Socities which do not, wane in influence or dissapear, either violently or passively.
4) Capsuleers, or more specifically the knowledge that humanity is capable of reaching a stage called Infomorph presents a challenge for societies that existed prior to our arrival.
5) The fact that infomorphs have been given weapons more capable than any designed before presents an existential threat to socities that existed prior to our arrival.
6) An existential threat puts pressure on societies, establishing the parameters for 3).

Solution: Old societies must adapt to acknowledge the infomorph, or new socities must be created that do so, and the successful socities will be the ones to correctly harness the power that we represent, and then make the best use of that power by extending infomorph society to every member.
Rogue Integer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2012-07-17 16:22:11 UTC
Pilot Thessalonia, this confuses me slightly. Certainly I agree with your six points, as should be clear from the above discussion. But how does that reconcile with Sansha's own public statements and goals?
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#32 - 2012-07-17 16:23:52 UTC
Rogue Integer wrote:
Pilot Thessalonia, this confuses me slightly. Certainly I agree with your six points, as should be clear from the above discussion. But how does that reconcile with Sansha's own public statements and goals?


What, you think capsuleers are the only infomorph?
Rogue Integer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2012-07-17 16:25:50 UTC
Of course not. See Todo Kirkinen for a well-known public example. But I've understood that Sansha specifically thinks that we capsuleers are the problem rather than the solution (or even a large part of the solution).
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#34 - 2012-07-17 16:32:16 UTC
Rogue Integer wrote:
Of course not. See Todo Kirkinen for a well-known public example. But I've understood that Sansha specifically thinks that we capsuleers are the problem rather than the solution (or even a large part of the solution).


Oh no, capsuleers are not the problem, they are the extension of it.

They are what happens when a society extends the gift without going through the societal evolution first. You can thank the Jovians for giving us the technology long before we should have ever have had it.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#35 - 2012-07-17 16:36:33 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Rogue Integer wrote:
Of course not. See Todo Kirkinen for a well-known public example. But I've understood that Sansha specifically thinks that we capsuleers are the problem rather than the solution (or even a large part of the solution).


Oh no, capsuleers are not the problem, they are the extension of it.

They are what happens when a society extends the gift without going through the societal evolution first. You can thank the Jovians for giving us the technology long before we should have ever have had it.


Capsuleers do tend to hold to the idea that complete individuality is the way forward, as well, and resist (most often violently and overly so... a shotgun where a slap on the hand would be required) any attempt to convince them otherwise.
Logan Fyreite
Grim Bit Interface
#36 - 2012-07-17 16:39:55 UTC
Rogue Integer wrote:
Pilot Fyreite, I agree with that goal, but I'm not convinced that violence is the best answer. That is, somewhat less explosive efforts might bear more fruit: political efforts, scientific advancement, or other subtle methods behind closed doors.

Not to mention, of course, providing a functioning example of a better way.

Much to my dismay, though that is also sometimes to my glee. It seems that violence is the only way.

Peaceful methods have fallen on deaf ears and our brother and sister infomorphs continue to make and fight over the same mistakes as their predecessors. Divided and all fighting for different goals only holds back where we could be.

In this case Sansha are actually the best news for the cluster. Their invasions at one point had the ability to cause the empires to forget their prejudice and fight together against a common, deadly foe. However, as even the most nieve will freely admit, their actual threat is far from that point, that is driving the need of the empires to band together and forget the sillyness that drives their lives currently.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2012-07-17 16:44:01 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

Capsuleers do tend to hold to the idea that complete individuality is the way forward, as well, and resist (most often violently and overly so... a shotgun where a slap on the hand would be required) any attempt to convince them otherwise.


Blame yourself for not convincing us before you start raiding planets.

You know me, Tiberious. perhaps not as a friend, but still - you know me. I have a kind ear that will listen to anything you tell me. So go on, convince me of this sickness that plagues humanity.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Benjamin Eastwood
#38 - 2012-07-17 16:44:37 UTC
These are brave words for a man who's clone(s) is probably being watched over by a government clone technician as we speak. We capsuleers are a product of those governments. The uncomfortable truth is, the capsuleers will not change the nations in the ways you seek anytime soon. There will always be more baseliners than capsuleers. They will always be the norm, not the exception, for governmental leadership (with the exception of the Sansha nation). You will not be the catalyst for the change you seek.


I was a citizen of the State well before I was a capsuleer, and I intend to see the State into the future, continuing its dominance at the cutting edge of technology. They gave me the gift of an extended life, and they could easily revoke it.







"Endless ISK, the sinews of war"
Rogue Integer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2012-07-17 16:50:55 UTC
Benjamin Eastwood wrote:
There will always be more baseliners than capsuleers. They will always be the norm, not the exception, for governmental leadership (with the exception of the Sansha nation). You will not be the catalyst for the change you seek.


First, that's like saying that our evolutionary ancestors, wherever they were, would always outnumber their more highly-evolved descendants. That clearly isn't the case.

Also, perhaps you are unaware, but the leaders of the Federation, Empire, and Republic are all capsuleers. Traitors for sticking with the old guard, but capsuleers in any case.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#40 - 2012-07-17 16:52:14 UTC
Halete wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

Capsuleers do tend to hold to the idea that complete individuality is the way forward, as well, and resist (most often violently and overly so... a shotgun where a slap on the hand would be required) any attempt to convince them otherwise.


Blame yourself for not convincing us before you start raiding planets.

You know me, Tiberious. perhaps not as a friend, but still - you know me. I have a kind ear that will listen to anything you tell me. So go on, convince me of this sickness that plagues humanity.


Actually, it's not particularly required that the doctor convince the dying patient before beginning the operation.

Anyways, I'll give you a message sometime when we are live. I find a back and forth exchange between two minds works better than a public airing of grievances.