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Is CrimeWatch vaporware?

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Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#321 - 2012-07-17 03:01:39 UTC
You know... it may just be the case that this is an indirect way of getting more people into lowsec. I mean, by making it harder to perform asshattery in highsec wouldn't that compel asshats to move to low? Personally I'm pretty uninterested in highsec on the whole.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Evelyn Meiyi
Corvidae Trading and Holding
#322 - 2012-07-17 03:13:51 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:

So your saying that your eliminating one of the four pillars of empire pvp and are replacing it with nothing? Or are you saying that pvp in empire is simply not allowed outside of suciding and war decs - which of course means that if i choose to stay in an npc corp I am completely safe from all non-consensual pvp except for suiciding? Why not just introduce flagging and put the final nail in the coffin of eve being a hardcore game?


When a system is left without balance or control, that system will inevitably fall into anarchy and self-destruct.

Think about it for a moment: every single new player starts out in high-security empire space. They're looking forward to a unique game experience, but before they can even get started, some jerk with a remote repper gathers up four or five of his friends and they sit outside the starter systems blowing the snot out of anyone who flies by.

An experienced player with a remote repper is nigh-indestructible to a new pilot. They don't have the skills, the ship or the modules to fight back. After the sixth time they have to buy a brand-new ship within their first fifteen minutes of play, they're more than likely reconsidering their choice of game.

Facing that kind of obstacle, I certainly would.
Betrinna Cantis
#323 - 2012-07-17 03:16:21 UTC
Ohh Yeah wrote:
Tippia wrote:
It's bad now and will still be be after the change. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Why do you think the act triggers any flags? What do you think the act will do after the change but trigger a flag?


I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or just stupid anymore.

Before the new system, stealing triggers a flag.

After the new system, stealing triggers a flag.

Before the new system, only your victim and his corp mates can shoot you.

After the new system, every single pilot in EVE can shoot you.


Tell me how that isn't an arbitrary change in morality - before the new system, stealing from someone gave the victim and their corporation the opportunity to deal with you personally. After the new system, stealing from someone makes you a criminal such that everyone in EVE can shoot at you. That is a change in morality. Before, it was bad in the sense that you were harming a single individual, and they had the opportunity to retaliate. Now, you're committing a crime that warrants all of EVE shooting you.

Think of it as a "Neighborhood Watch" thing. If someone broke into your house and started to run away with your things, would you not yell at the people closest by to stop the thief? The thief knew what they were doing when they stole,so they should know that all the "neighborhood" is gonna beat you to death with a stick. Sends a message to the rest of the thieves not to screw with you, doesn't it?

Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares.....
Ohh Yeah
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#324 - 2012-07-17 04:00:26 UTC
Real life examples work poorly in a game where often one person effectively taunts another into throwing the first punch so they can murder them without consequences.
Pipa Porto
#325 - 2012-07-17 04:35:43 UTC
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
Ohh Yeah wrote:
Tippia wrote:
It's bad now and will still be be after the change. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Why do you think the act triggers any flags? What do you think the act will do after the change but trigger a flag?


I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or just stupid anymore.

Before the new system, stealing triggers a flag.

After the new system, stealing triggers a flag.

Before the new system, only your victim and his corp mates can shoot you.

After the new system, every single pilot in EVE can shoot you.


Tell me how that isn't an arbitrary change in morality - before the new system, stealing from someone gave the victim and their corporation the opportunity to deal with you personally. After the new system, stealing from someone makes you a criminal such that everyone in EVE can shoot at you. That is a change in morality. Before, it was bad in the sense that you were harming a single individual, and they had the opportunity to retaliate. Now, you're committing a crime that warrants all of EVE shooting you.

Think of it as a "Neighborhood Watch" thing. If someone broke into your house and started to run away with your things, would you not yell at the people closest by to stop the thief? The thief knew what they were doing when they stole,so they should know that all the "neighborhood" is gonna beat you to death with a stick. Sends a message to the rest of the thieves not to screw with you, doesn't it?


If you want to make a real life comparison, do you know what happens to those neighbors after they murder the thief? They go to prison.

In EVE, similarly, they get CONCORDed.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#326 - 2012-07-17 04:39:26 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
Ohh Yeah wrote:
Tippia wrote:
It's bad now and will still be be after the change. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Why do you think the act triggers any flags? What do you think the act will do after the change but trigger a flag?


I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or just stupid anymore.

Before the new system, stealing triggers a flag.

After the new system, stealing triggers a flag.

Before the new system, only your victim and his corp mates can shoot you.

After the new system, every single pilot in EVE can shoot you.


Tell me how that isn't an arbitrary change in morality - before the new system, stealing from someone gave the victim and their corporation the opportunity to deal with you personally. After the new system, stealing from someone makes you a criminal such that everyone in EVE can shoot at you. That is a change in morality. Before, it was bad in the sense that you were harming a single individual, and they had the opportunity to retaliate. Now, you're committing a crime that warrants all of EVE shooting you.

Think of it as a "Neighborhood Watch" thing. If someone broke into your house and started to run away with your things, would you not yell at the people closest by to stop the thief? The thief knew what they were doing when they stole,so they should know that all the "neighborhood" is gonna beat you to death with a stick. Sends a message to the rest of the thieves not to screw with you, doesn't it?


If you want to make a real life comparison, do you know what happens to those neighbors after they murder the thief? They go to prison.

In EVE, similarly, they get CONCORDed.


Hence why it needs to go

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Pipa Porto
#327 - 2012-07-17 04:51:57 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
Ohh Yeah wrote:
Tippia wrote:
It's bad now and will still be be after the change. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Why do you think the act triggers any flags? What do you think the act will do after the change but trigger a flag?


I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or just stupid anymore.

Before the new system, stealing triggers a flag.

After the new system, stealing triggers a flag.

Before the new system, only your victim and his corp mates can shoot you.

After the new system, every single pilot in EVE can shoot you.


Tell me how that isn't an arbitrary change in morality - before the new system, stealing from someone gave the victim and their corporation the opportunity to deal with you personally. After the new system, stealing from someone makes you a criminal such that everyone in EVE can shoot at you. That is a change in morality. Before, it was bad in the sense that you were harming a single individual, and they had the opportunity to retaliate. Now, you're committing a crime that warrants all of EVE shooting you.

Think of it as a "Neighborhood Watch" thing. If someone broke into your house and started to run away with your things, would you not yell at the people closest by to stop the thief? The thief knew what they were doing when they stole,so they should know that all the "neighborhood" is gonna beat you to death with a stick. Sends a message to the rest of the thieves not to screw with you, doesn't it?


If you want to make a real life comparison, do you know what happens to those neighbors after they murder the thief? They go to prison.

In EVE, similarly, they get CONCORDed.


Hence why it needs to go


At one point, EVE didn't have an effective CONCORD. It was a bad idea. The Zombies in Yulai proved that. HS without CONCORD means that you cannot effectively do logistical work in HS, so all Logistics would happen via JF (or Titan bridged Freighter) in lowsec, knocking everyone who can't afford a JF out of the hauling game, leading to nobody moving anything anywhere except for large groups with logistical wings organized well enough to handle it.

Removing CONCORD is a stupid idea.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Ohh Yeah
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#328 - 2012-07-17 05:12:35 UTC
I don't think he meant that CONCORD needed to go.
Pipa Porto
#329 - 2012-07-17 05:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Ohh Yeah wrote:
I don't think he meant that CONCORD needed to go.


He's advocated it elsewhere, and plain reading only allows CONCORD to be the antecedent of his pronoun.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#330 - 2012-07-17 05:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Ohh Yeah wrote:
I don't think he meant that CONCORD needed to go.


Yeah I actually do.

Its a stupid, kneejerk response to a problem and CCP didnt think it out when they implimented it (like usual)

You replace the stupid godlike powers of an NPC organization with players that run security for those logistics. Like those mercenary groups Soundwave was pretending he cared about after the wardec change.

THAT actually makes the MARKET he said EVE needs so very badly that they had to change the wardec mechanic

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Pipa Porto
#331 - 2012-07-17 05:22:09 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Ohh Yeah wrote:
I don't think he meant that CONCORD needed to go.


Yeah I actually do.

Its a stupid, kneejerk response to a problem and CCP didnt think it out when they implimented it (like usual)

You replace the stupid godlike powers of an NPC organization with players that run security for those logistics. Like those mercenary groups Soundwave was pretending he cared about after the wardec change.

THAT actually makes the MARKET he said EVE needs so very badly that they had to change the wardec mechanic


Ever been a part of a Freighter convoy? They're not fun. In fact, they suck. And that's with the availability of Titans to bridge.

Without Titans to bridge some of the distance, they'd be even worse.

(By the way, CONCORD was introduced before EVE launched, so what exactly, was it a kneejerk reaction to?)

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#332 - 2012-07-17 05:58:59 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Ohh Yeah wrote:
I don't think he meant that CONCORD needed to go.


Yeah I actually do.

Its a stupid, kneejerk response to a problem and CCP didnt think it out when they implimented it (like usual)

You replace the stupid godlike powers of an NPC organization with players that run security for those logistics. Like those mercenary groups Soundwave was pretending he cared about after the wardec change.

THAT actually makes the MARKET he said EVE needs so very badly that they had to change the wardec mechanic


Ever been a part of a Freighter convoy? They're not fun. In fact, they suck. And that's with the availability of Titans to bridge.

Without Titans to bridge some of the distance, they'd be even worse.

(By the way, CONCORD was introduced before EVE launched, so what exactly, was it a kneejerk reaction to?)

Please. Freighter ops don't suck nearly as much as they should. Logistics is supposed to be hard. It's supposed to be dangerous. The only reason you are b1tching is because they are now boring. Your invulnerable in a JF. This is a major nullsec problem. WTF do you know about freighter convoys? They don't even exist anymore. Teleportation was by far the worst addition to eve.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Pipa Porto
#333 - 2012-07-17 06:50:36 UTC
Gogela wrote:

Please. Freighter ops don't suck nearly as much as they should. Logistics is supposed to be hard. It's supposed to be dangerous. The only reason you are b1tching is because they are now boring. Your invulnerable in a JF. This is a major nullsec problem. WTF do you know about freighter convoys? They don't even exist anymore. Teleportation was by far the worst addition to eve.


Which JF does this fit into again? Or this?

When the NC was losing Branch, there were a number of large Freighter convoys evacuating very large quantities of material. I was in some of them. But, of course, the jump freighter has made freighter convoys entirely obsolete, so I must have been hallucinating, you're right.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tysinger
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#334 - 2012-07-17 07:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
Everyone, go play DayZ where there is no pve and the person that developed it says **** YOU to pve'rs.

*snip*

CCP wise up or you will lose the rest of all your old player base, hope you can fill it with more WoW players to make up for them but I really dont think thats going to happen anytime soon, and as for your new game? HAHAHAHA Planetside is going to crush all yoru hopes and dreams of being anything.

Ban me if you want to, like you have been doing to others that are speaking out against you, but I still say *snip*


EDIT

It is against forum rules to verbally abuse or attack CCP staff, if you have a point to make please do so respectfully. Thank you.

Forum Rules wrote:
29. Personal attacks and abuse of CCP staff.


There has been a worrying trend of increased personal attacks on developers on our own forums as of late, this will not be tolerated. Our forums are an area for players to exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who abuse staff will receive a permanent forum ban across all of their accounts which will not be subject to review at any time.


EDIT: Edited for personal attacks on CCP staff and abusive language - ISD Type40
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#335 - 2012-07-17 08:24:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorv
Tysinger wrote:
Everyone, go play DayZ where there is no pve and the person that developed it says **** YOU to pve'rs.
[...]
CCP wise up or you will lose the rest of all your old player base, hope you can fill it with more WoW players to make up for them but I really dont think thats going to happen anytime soon, and as for your new game? HAHAHAHA Planetside is going to crush all yoru hopes and dreams of being anything.


DayZ looked promising until I saw it was based on Zombie/Horror... Just don't like that stuff. But yeah high hopes for Planetside 2. The first game was quite possibly the best PvP MMO ever made, and the second one looks as though it could be way better.

But yeah, EVE just gets more meh with every non art based dev update. I still can't get over that the expansion is called "Inferno" "Camp Fire" would have been more appropriate.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#336 - 2012-07-17 10:05:06 UTC
Wardecs are all wonky
Mining ships are getting buffs to the point where some of them have battleship ehp
Now we're getting invulnerable neut RR
and messing with stealing/baiting mechanics

oh look hisec has become hello kitty online. Thanks greyscale!

jesus h christ
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#337 - 2012-07-17 11:04:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ohh Yeah wrote:
I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or just stupid anymore.

Before the new system, stealing triggers a flag.

After the new system, stealing triggers a flag.
…thus no change in morality. Stealing was always a crime. The whole notion that CCP suddenly says that theft is “bad” whereas before they didn't is just wilfully ignorant and completely nonsensical. It's almost as silly as the hallucination some people had earlier about how they now called PvP bad.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Mining ships are getting buffs to the point where some of them have battleship ehp
Now we're getting invulnerable neut RR
For the first, don't worry — the silly miners will still use their hulks and be easy to kill.
As to the second point, no, we're not. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#338 - 2012-07-17 11:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:

So your saying that your eliminating one of the four pillars of empire pvp and are replacing it with nothing? Or are you saying that pvp in empire is simply not allowed outside of suciding and war decs - which of course means that if i choose to stay in an npc corp I am completely safe from all non-consensual pvp except for suiciding? Why not just introduce flagging and put the final nail in the coffin of eve being a hardcore game?


When a system is left without balance or control, that system will inevitably fall into anarchy and self-destruct.

Think about it for a moment: every single new player starts out in high-security empire space. They're looking forward to a unique game experience, but before they can even get started, some jerk with a remote repper gathers up four or five of his friends and they sit outside the starter systems blowing the snot out of anyone who flies by.

An experienced player with a remote repper is nigh-indestructible to a new pilot. They don't have the skills, the ship or the modules to fight back. After the sixth time they have to buy a brand-new ship within their first fifteen minutes of play, they're more than likely reconsidering their choice of game.

Facing that kind of obstacle, I certainly would.


When I first came to eve way back when I did so because I was looking for an open world pvp experience. Every thing I saw written about eve said it was an open world pvp hardcore game. So imagine my surprise when after doing the tutorials I looked around and couldn't find any pvp. In fact I learned that you couldn't just shoot folk in empire. I eventually gave up on eve as it was boring as hell - warp here, orbit and shoot that npc and then warp there ad naseum. Some time later, I decided to give eve another try - I figured all these people who were saying eve was a open world pvp game must know something. When I got back to eve I did some research and worked my way to low sec where of course my ill fitted ships were raped by the local pirates. Now this was really unfun - being the repeated ***** of people with much better skills, experience and equipment. However, after some more research I learned there were other options. In particular I came upon can flipping . . . It turns out that for a young pilot can flipping allows you to have control over your fights; your fights are generally limited in size, and since you pick your targets they can match your experience level. As far as I'm concerned can flipping is eve's open world pvp training ground that enables a new player to bridge the experience gap. Now without can flipping as a viable outlet - what is the option for the new pilots who wants open world pvp? Are they to be forced to go to low sec to be the repeated victims of vastly more experienced pilots. How fun is that? Won't that drive those players out of the game? And artificial things like rvb are not the answer - as they are not open world - its a vastly different pvp experience.

What I truly don't understand about all this is why ccp would boost suicide ganking (t3 bc's and all that) which denies the target any real chance to engage in pvp by fighting back, but work to nerf out of existence can flipping which was a wholly consensual pvp act which allowed the target to fight back with the advantage of his entire corp being on his side during the fight.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#339 - 2012-07-17 13:47:53 UTC
Some seem to be missing the point of hi-sec and the design goals as stated by CCP.

From the presentation:

"You should be pretty safe in hi-sec" - "It may be controversial to some but that's the way it is."

And from this thread:

CCP Greyscale wrote:

We want to be clear at the same time, though, that getting a suspect flag is a punishment for doing something "bad". As with the current system of killrights etc, it's not intended as a tool that you can abuse to do further "bad" things with impunity, and while we're generally OK with people abusing some of the loopholes in the design and/or UI presentation to use such systems for unintended purposes, the design intent is for suspect flagging to be something that you want to avoid or at the very least treat as a drawback, not an opportunity. If you find yourself saying "but then if I get a suspect flag, I'm at a disadvantage!", you should consider that this is likely intentional. This is EVE: we permit you to do whatever you please, but we mandate negative consequences for some actions, to encourage a generally healthy player ecosystem.


Arguing for changes that are contrary to the stated goals isn't likely to go very far. This *is* EVE, but there are places designed into the world that are supposed to have some semblance of law and order. Being a badguy in those places should not be easy or necessarily fair.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Rara Yariza
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#340 - 2012-07-17 14:06:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rara Yariza
War Kitten wrote:
Some seem to be missing the point of hi-sec and the design goals as stated by CCP.

From the presentation:

"You should be pretty safe in hi-sec" - "It may be controversial to some but that's the way it is."

And from this thread:

CCP Greyscale wrote:

We want to be clear at the same time, though, that getting a suspect flag is a punishment for doing something "bad". As with the current system of killrights etc, it's not intended as a tool that you can abuse to do further "bad" things with impunity, and while we're generally OK with people abusing some of the loopholes in the design and/or UI presentation to use such systems for unintended purposes, the design intent is for suspect flagging to be something that you want to avoid or at the very least treat as a drawback, not an opportunity. If you find yourself saying "but then if I get a suspect flag, I'm at a disadvantage!", you should consider that this is likely intentional. This is EVE: we permit you to do whatever you please, but we mandate negative consequences for some actions, to encourage a generally healthy player ecosystem.


Arguing for changes that are contrary to the stated goals isn't likely to go very far. This *is* EVE, but there are places designed into the world that are supposed to have some semblance of law and order. Being a badguy in those places should not be easy or necessarily fair.


EvE is a fair game at the moment, in terms of mechanics providing the same consequences for everyone. With CCP changing this to now punish behavior it deems bad, EvE is no longer the same kind of game. CCP Greyscale has mentioned they want to make the code simpler. So I'm wondering, and part of the reason why i asked my original question, do CCP want this new kind of game (e.g game B) or is it they aren't currently capable of cleaning up the code and keeping it like it is now (game A) but would want to if they could.

So, once again CCP, what is your core philosophy for EvE now? and if it's changed, why?