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Is CrimeWatch vaporware?

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Kalicor Lightwind
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#301 - 2012-07-16 23:38:11 UTC
I think the main thing they are considering is grieving potential in high sec group activities like incursions. I could easily see people using the vigilante/suspect flag to flag logi for pvp combat and then come gank them.

Maybe only flag logi if their target is actively engaged in pvp combat, as in being actively shot at or actively shooting at someone? Might need a short "Defender Aggro" flag, that's maybe only a minute long and happens if the logi pilot helps the suspect actively in a fight. Like the gate aggro mechanic: If the vigilante/suspect can't jump a gate because of their recent aggression, then the logis would inherit their pvp flag. Same should happen to logi that rep a wartarget: only flagged for pvp/suspect if they are actively engaged with their war targets.

I mean because really: if they haven't been shot at or shot someone for a minute, how does repping the target hurt anyone? They've obviously escaped any immediate pvp combat threat, and inheriting aggression from long timers is less about "killing the logi that helped your war target/enemy" and more about "let's see how we can abuse these mechanics to gank unsuspecting lemmings.

Plus it's kind of annoying to be banned from public incursions in faction war, even in high (.7, .8+) security friendly space. Same deal with one man war decs against large alliances/corps, most of the time this ostracizes them from any sort of high sec group activity because of the aggression mechanics.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#302 - 2012-07-16 23:39:34 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
Crime Watch from my understanding and a few others was to be ONE of the big highlights for Escalation. Big frackin let down.
Weeeell… they gave us some advance warning that it wouldn't be ready at that time.

As for your ideas about RR, the first one will already happen (just like now), and the latter one is a bit OTT — instead, the RR will get a suspect flag and be free-for-all so you (and everyone else) can just blow him up. Also, he won't be able to play docking games.


Except that you gain the exact same aggression flag when you do something expressly legal like shooting at Outlaws or Rats.

How will outlaws be handled?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#303 - 2012-07-16 23:42:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Since engaging a suspect causes that suspect to be able to engage you in return it would appear that 1 to 1 flagging is still a part of crimewatch 2.0. Is it not possible for logistics and other forms of RR aiding the person attacking the suspect to simply inherit the same personal aggressions the person they are helping has?
It's exactly that kind of 1-to-1 flagging transfer that they want to get away from because it's what has caused the mess that is the current CrimeWatch system. The only reason they're (re)implementing it for defensive purposes is because it would be hugely imbalanced if they didn't. The flagging is only there to let the criminal defend himself.

While I understand the need for simplicity, making a tactic a stupid thing to do to the point of all but explicitly removing it seems bad. That seems to be what's happening for suspect aggressing neutral RR.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#304 - 2012-07-16 23:46:23 UTC
Rara Yariza wrote:
Under the new mechanics you steal and get suspect flag = everyone can shoot you without consequences and without you doing something to them that causes an aggression flag, this is just like null.
If it were like null, I'd be able to take on all comers as would my team mates. I would also expect to have an SC or two dropped on me. None of that will happen. Blink

Quote:
This situation is only possible as they are changing the mechanic so you get an aggression flag to everyone, whether you did something that affected them or not.
Sure, but the flipside of that is that if I manage to get a proper canflip in, my associates (and anyone else who'd like to join in) can come and blow the target up without repercussions. In addition, as existing criminal and outlaw flagging shows, people are in general rather apathetic about pursuing free legitimate targets — corp mates will most likely still be the larger threat.

Quote:
CCP are saying it is ok to do this as they will consider stealing as 'bad'.
…which is no different than now since they are already saying that stealing is “bad”. The moral judgement was made back when theft flagging was introduced — it is not something they suddenly add in or change with CW2.0.

Pipa Porto wrote:
Except that you gain the exact same aggression flag when you do something expressly legal like shooting at Outlaws or Rats.
? What are you referring to? You don't get (nor will you get) any suspect flags for doing those.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#305 - 2012-07-16 23:48:14 UTC
sorry, Im not reading 10+ pages from when the CCP last spoke that I know of, but what HE said was to the effect that neutral repping would be good to go, did that change?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#306 - 2012-07-16 23:50:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Tippia wrote:
[quote=Rara Yariza]I would also expect to have an SC or two dropped on me. None of that will happen. Blink



Splittin them hairs mighty thin when youre saying the only difference is you cant bring cap ships lol

cause you WILL be able to "take on all comers" once youre flagged unless theyre dropping the idea that anyone can shoot you when flagged.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#307 - 2012-07-16 23:57:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
sorry, Im not reading 10+ pages from when the CCP last spoke that I know of, but what HE said was to the effect that neutral repping would be good to go, did that change?

Last I saw in this thread from Greyscale was the idea that RR helping someone aggressing a suspect would get a suspect flag. And while I'm thinking about it, what happens with spider tanking or similar strategies where those fighting the suspect give remote assistance to each other? Do all involved wind up as suspects?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#308 - 2012-07-17 00:00:39 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
cause you WILL be able to "take on all comers" once youre flagged unless theyre dropping the idea that anyone can shoot you when flagged.
…but only after they've chosen to do so, not because I want to get rid of them, and I can't go after all their support (only some, depending on what they do with the remote-support flagging), and I can get far better support while doing so.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
And while I'm thinking about it, what happens with spider tanking or similar strategies where those fighting the suspect give remote assistance to each other. Do all involved wind up as suspects?
Yes, but that's where the “safety” system is supposed to kick in and keep you from triggering flags you don't want to trigger.
Rara Yariza
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#309 - 2012-07-17 00:01:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Rara Yariza
Tippia wrote:
Rara Yariza wrote:
Under the new mechanics you steal and get suspect flag = everyone can shoot you without consequences and without you doing something to them that causes an aggression flag, this is just like null.
If it were like null, I'd be able to take on all comers as would my team mates. I would also expect to have an SC or two dropped on me. None of that will happen. Blink

Quote:
This situation is only possible as they are changing the mechanic so you get an aggression flag to everyone, whether you did something that affected them or not.
Sure, but the flipside of that is that if I manage to get a proper canflip in, my associates (and anyone else who'd like to join in) can come and blow the target up without repercussions. In addition, as existing criminal and outlaw flagging shows, people are in general rather apathetic about pursuing free legitimate targets — corp mates will most likely still be the larger threat.

Quote:
CCP are saying it is ok to do this as they will consider stealing as 'bad'.
…which is no different than now since they are already saying that stealing is “bad”. The moral judgement was made back when theft flagging was introduced — it is not something they suddenly add in or change with CW2.0.

Pipa Porto wrote:
Except that you gain the exact same aggression flag when you do something expressly legal like shooting at Outlaws or Rats.
? What are you referring to? You don't get (nor will you get) any suspect flags for doing those.



Smile In the case of aggression mechanics though it will be like null for a person with a suspect flag and not for the other guy.

I understand you can do this and that, but these changes still provide a vastly more imbalanced outcome that helps defenders. My original point and question to CCP was basically 'are introducing these changes that cause a larger imbalance part of how you want EvE to be?' If CCP sticks their head in here I'd love it if they could take the time to say.

We can keep going over this but as it is now the aggression flag doesn't denote a 'bad' thing.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#310 - 2012-07-17 00:03:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
And while I'm thinking about it, what happens with spider tanking or similar strategies where those fighting the suspect give remote assistance to each other. Do all involved wind up as suspects?
Yes, but that's where the “safety” system is supposed to kick in and keep you from triggering flags you don't want to trigger.

Forgot about that, but that means any remote assistance is out of the picture for those with safeties enabled, even between pilots that have chosen to aggress the suspect. This seems less than optimal.
Pipa Porto
#311 - 2012-07-17 00:04:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Pipa Porto wrote:
Except that you gain the exact same aggression flag when you do something expressly legal like shooting at Outlaws or Rats.
? What are you referring to? You don't get (nor will you get) any suspect flags for doing those.


Sorry, I quoted the wrong part of your post.

Right now, there are 2 flags, the GCC (red) and the Agression Flag (Yellow). The aggression flag isn't a criminal one, because there are ways to get it without committing any crime, like shooting an Outlaw or helping someone who's doing the same. Shooting someone who's gone GCC also gives you an Aggression Flag, though it's not currently particularly important, as it won't last more than 20-30s longer than that pilot's GCC. All of these aggression flags are identical to the one you get from flipping a can.

Now, with this new "2 flag" system, the GCC (felon) looks like it will stay roughly the same. Now, with only the Suspect flag left, what flag do you give someone who shoots an outlaw to indicate that the Outlaw can shoot them back? It's now a 3 flag system when it used to be a two flag one. Now, aiding someone who's shooting an outlaw will give you the suspect flag, because there's no individual flagging (well, except for the new "X can shoot me, because I shot him legally" flag) making you a criminal (what?).

One way to get rid of the necessity of the third, individual aggression flag would be to make everyone who shoots someone else a suspect (I think that's silly), another would be to not flag the person shooting the outlaw with anything (so an outlaw defending themselves gets CONCORDed, also silly).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#312 - 2012-07-17 00:12:33 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
All of these aggression flags are identical to the one you get from flipping a can.
Not quite. The one you get for stealing is still something you get in response to an actual crime (which is the same reason you get one for stealing under CW2.0). It differs from the others in that it's a group flagging rather than just a player-to-player flag as with attacking outlaws and an utterly irrelevant and mechanically functionless relic that you get for shooting rats.

Quote:
One way to get rid of the necessity of the third, individual aggression flag would be to make everyone who shoots someone else a suspect (I think that's silly), another would be to not flag the person shooting the outlaw with anything (so an outlaw defending themselves gets CONCORDed, also silly).
I was always partial to the idea of them implementing “limited engagements” — ad hoc groups that had temporary wardec mechanics tied to them.

It would still be a three-flag system, but that third flag would let you dynamically add participants as they got involved without it spreading to everyone in the galaxy (and could double as a base mechanic for formal duels).
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#313 - 2012-07-17 00:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
sorry, Im not reading 10+ pages from when the CCP last spoke that I know of, but what HE said was to the effect that neutral repping would be good to go, did that change?

Last I saw in this thread from Greyscale was the idea that RR helping someone aggressing a suspect would get a suspect flag. And while I'm thinking about it, what happens with spider tanking or similar strategies where those fighting the suspect give remote assistance to each other? Do all involved wind up as suspects?


See last I saw was the quote

CCP Greyscale wrote:

As to "invicible logis", in the current design yes, that is the case, but only in the scenario where you've already done something to become a suspect. There's a point at which we have to say "look, you've done something 'illegal', this fight isn't going to be fair, sorry" if we want to avoid the complexity of the current system.



came out of

Tippia wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
cause you WILL be able to "take on all comers" once youre flagged unless theyre dropping the idea that anyone can shoot you when flagged.
…but only after they've chosen to do so, not because I want to get rid of them, and I can't go after all their support (only some, depending on what they do with the remote-support flagging), and I can get far better support while doing so.


so after they trigger this (what used to be) "everyone kill this guy" flag ISNT that anymore?

But this flag seems to be injecting an unhealthy amount of "fair" into the game for the ppl getting flipped. Isnt that totally against the design plan for EVE (according to Shockwave's stated reason why they changed the war dec allies system)?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#314 - 2012-07-17 00:23:35 UTC
bah

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Rara Yariza
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#315 - 2012-07-17 00:27:40 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

As to "invicible logis", in the current design yes, that is the case, but only in the scenario where you've already done something to become a suspect. There's a point at which we have to say "look, you've done something 'illegal', this fight isn't going to be fair, sorry" if we want to avoid the complexity of the current system.



Well bummer, so it looks like CCP do want imbalanced gameplay Sad
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#316 - 2012-07-17 00:28:22 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
See last I saw was the quote […] came out of
The “current design” he's talking about there is the idea presented at page 1 — that they have a single, non-transferable flag between suspects and attackers. The idea Tyberius is talking about was the one mentioned later, where all kinds of neutral support would flag you suspect.

Quote:
so after they trigger this (what used to be) "everyone kill this guy" flag ISNT that anymore?
That part is still intact — what (might) have changed is how others might interact with the suspect and his attackers. What I'm referring to, though, is the difference between being a free-for-all target that can shoot back and being in null, where you don't have to wait to shoot back since you can just shoot first (and get ample support in doing so).
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#317 - 2012-07-17 00:28:28 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:

See last I saw was the quote

CCP Greyscale wrote:

As to "invicible logis", in the current design yes, that is the case, but only in the scenario where you've already done something to become a suspect. There's a point at which we have to say "look, you've done something 'illegal', this fight isn't going to be fair, sorry" if we want to avoid the complexity of the current system.

See here
CCP Greyscale wrote:

We had a discussion this morning about the specific case of people RRing vigilantes. We're currently considering treating it like all other "neutral RR" situations under the new system, ie suspect-flagging you if you RR a vigilante, as this seems to iron out a lot of the wrinkles here and makes it more consistent with the rest of the design.
Pipa Porto
#318 - 2012-07-17 00:32:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
All of these aggression flags are identical to the one you get from flipping a can.
Not quite. The one you get for stealing is still something you get in response to an actual crime (which is the same reason you get one for stealing under CW2.0). It differs from the others in that it's a group flagging rather than just a player-to-player flag as with attacking outlaws and an utterly irrelevant and mechanically functionless relic that you get for shooting rats.

Quote:
One way to get rid of the necessity of the third, individual aggression flag would be to make everyone who shoots someone else a suspect (I think that's silly), another would be to not flag the person shooting the outlaw with anything (so an outlaw defending themselves gets CONCORDed, also silly).
I was always partial to the idea of them implementing “limited engagements” — ad hoc groups that had temporary wardec mechanics tied to them.

It would still be a three-flag system, but that third flag would let you dynamically add participants as they got involved without it spreading to everyone in the galaxy (and could double as a base mechanic for formal duels).


The current aggression flag for can flipping is a flag to the affected party (the corp owns the can, as it owns just about everything floating in space), just like the aggression flag for shooting outlaws is, as is the aggression flag for repping WTs.

That would be fine with me. I just have a problem with petty theft making you a de facto outlaw, as the Suspect flag does.

It's similar to the difference between Civil tort and Criminal law. Some wrongs are considered to be private wrongs, where the wronged party must take action to gain redress, while some are considered to be public wrongs, where the state takes over to punish the offender. Where each wrong gets sorted is up to the individual legal system (Rome included Murder in the private wrong category, the US includes theft in the public wrong category, for example), but I can't think of a legal system anywhere or anytime that allowed anyone to take action against someone for a private wrong against an unaffiliated third party. Current aggression mechanics have CONCORD punishing Public Wrongs and allowing players to deal with Private wrongs privately. The suspect flag allows third parties to butt into the resolution of a Private wrong even though they are unaffiliated with the wronged party.

I think some sort of limited engagement system would be a good thing, though I'm at a loss for a way to fairly implement it. But the aggression mechanics we have now are closer to that then the proposed suspect (everyone in local, let's whomp on the can-flipper) flag mechanics.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#319 - 2012-07-17 01:09:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
See last I saw was the quote […] came out of
The “current design” he's talking about there is the idea presented at page 1 — that they have a single, non-transferable flag between suspects and attackers. The idea Tyberius is talking about was the one mentioned later, where all kinds of neutral support would flag you suspect.

Quote:
so after they trigger this (what used to be) "everyone kill this guy" flag ISNT that anymore?
That part is still intact — what (might) have changed is how others might interact with the suspect and his attackers. What I'm referring to, though, is the difference between being a free-for-all target that can shoot back and being in null, where you don't have to wait to shoot back since you can just shoot first (and get ample support in doing so).


well yea, what Im hoping theyll do is what every other friggin MMO I know of does. If you heal someone in PVP you BECOME PART OF THE FIGHT

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Ohh Yeah
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#320 - 2012-07-17 01:16:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
It's bad now and will still be be after the change. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Why do you think the act triggers any flags? What do you think the act will do after the change but trigger a flag?


I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or just stupid anymore.

Before the new system, stealing triggers a flag.

After the new system, stealing triggers a flag.

Before the new system, only your victim and his corp mates can shoot you.

After the new system, every single pilot in EVE can shoot you.


Tell me how that isn't an arbitrary change in morality - before the new system, stealing from someone gave the victim and their corporation the opportunity to deal with you personally. After the new system, stealing from someone makes you a criminal such that everyone in EVE can shoot at you. That is a change in morality. Before, it was bad in the sense that you were harming a single individual, and they had the opportunity to retaliate. Now, you're committing a crime that warrants all of EVE shooting you.