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Pay to win

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Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#881 - 2012-07-21 21:33:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mechael wrote:
So when someone buys an account with real money and starts playing the game, the balance of the game is not affected by the entry of a new player at all?
No more than if he starts the account without real money.


Completely and utterly irrelevant. If real money can be spent to alter game balance, whether or not it MUST be spent to alter game balance, it is not something I'm going to be interested in playing. Unless of course it also happens to be easily the best game out there, as with EVE. Which is also kind of sad.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#882 - 2012-07-21 21:33:55 UTC
Mechael wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:


They are obviously not getting exactly the same advantage. They spend money, and then an item is place in their hangar which would not have been there had they not spent money. The person who did not spend money does not get an item placed into his hangar in such a manner because he did not spend money. He has to buy said item with ISK. The problem isn't that you can buy things with ISK, the problem is that you can buy things with real money.


He spends money for a service

I spend no money for exactly the same service.


Where is the advantage?


Now not only do you spend no money for exactly the same service, but you also spend real money in addition to ISK for even more of the service. Advantage.

You can spend real money on EVE to get stuff in-game. That is real money affecting the game balance. That is the problem.


... or just spend more ISK, real money need never enter into the equation.

You keep forgetting that.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#883 - 2012-07-21 21:34:14 UTC
Mechael wrote:


Now not only do you spend no money for exactly the same service, but you also spend real money in addition to ISK for even more of the service. Advantage.

You can spend real money on EVE to get stuff in-game. That is real money affecting the game balance. That is the problem.


No matter how much real money you spend I can get the exact same service for in game isk.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#884 - 2012-07-21 21:36:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mechael wrote:
Completely and utterly irrelevant.
…except that it was exactly what you were claiming.

Quote:
If real money can be spent to alter game balance
…which it can't. The game balance (in the sense of stats of the world) is altered by patches. The balance of the game world (in terms of what's available to buy and sell) is altered by people being in it and creating stuff in-game to buy and sell. Paying is not a factor in either case.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#885 - 2012-07-21 21:36:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

They use your system. Its so bad that my corp would wander through their space and never get reported.


I assure you all the use of static alts scouts I've seen ingame has provided a huge advantage to those corps I've been in. Mostly WH corps, though. Their smaller side tends to eliminate sloppiness esting upon others' shoulders, as happens sometimes in null.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#886 - 2012-07-21 21:37:33 UTC
The real question in this thread is, how long can they keep up ignoring the fact that real money and in game money are completely interchangeable in EVE.

Or will they keep arguing from the stance that you have to spend money for your account to begin with, and that if you spend more money you get an advantage?

We'll see. I have faith that eventually the light will dawn.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#887 - 2012-07-21 21:38:37 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:
Mechael wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:



Except the part where they get more of said advantage over you by spending real cash. No matter how much ISK you are making through solely in-game means, you could be making more if you bought PLEX in addition to it. And that's not even getting into how useful alts are for making in-game money. Alts which must be paid for, by someone, with real money. Alts which alter the balance of the game.


Alts which I have without spending any extra RL cash.


Someone did. And someone, almost always at least two people, benefited from doing it. Again ... benefiting in-game from someone spending real money on the game.


That's called pay to play not pay to win.

And is kind of the whole point of why Plex is not pay to win. Because someone paid CCP for a game subscription not for isk. that another person is willing to pay isk for that game subscription does not make it pay to win.

Pay to win is when you can spend real life money to purchase advantages that players who do not pay can't get through normal game play. Such as say premium tanks in WOT that give a bonus to how much money you make. Or special ammo that can only be purchased with RL currency that is more accurate or does more damage than the ammo available through normal game play.

Hell the very existence of plex breaks your premise that alts somehow make the game "Pay to win" because those accounts can be paid for with in the game currency acquired through normal universally available game mechanics.



I think we're stuck on the pay to win term, as has been stated many time before. What I'm talking about is real money affecting the game in an unacceptable manner. For me, unacceptable is anything beyond a basic admittance fee. You seem to be talking about the ability to gain a unique advantage (such as non-transferable golden ammo) via real money. They're almost two completely different things. The second is a small subsection of the first, really.

Anyway, my problem is that you can spend real money beyond a base admittance fee in order to alter the game. In EVE, this happens through alts and PLEX. I consider it a bad thing. Apparently you (and some of the others in this thread) are okay with this (and you, of course, have every right to be okay with it.)

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#888 - 2012-07-21 21:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ranger 1 wrote:
We'll see. I have faith that eventually the light will dawn.
Don't be silly. That would ruin their agenda.

At least we can be confident that they have by now thoroughly convinced any non-troll that there isn't any P2W in EVE since there are no advantages that can only be had by playing, and I suppose that's a benefit of all this.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#889 - 2012-07-21 21:39:35 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

They use your system. Its so bad that my corp would wander through their space and never get reported.


I assure you all the use of static alts scouts I've seen ingame has provided a huge advantage to those corps I've been in. Mostly WH corps, though. Their smaller side tends to eliminate sloppiness esting upon others' shoulders, as happens sometimes in null.



WH are even worse with that system because you can only find people with the D-scanner or sitting on the WH exit watching for people using the overview to try and catch them before the cloak up/warp off. Neither of these things can be done very well while AFK.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#890 - 2012-07-21 21:39:35 UTC
Die, thread. Die!

*Renan Ruivo kicks thread in the nut.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#891 - 2012-07-21 21:42:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

They use your system. Its so bad that my corp would wander through their space and never get reported.


I assure you all the use of static alts scouts I've seen ingame has provided a huge advantage to those corps I've been in. Mostly WH corps, though. Their smaller side tends to eliminate sloppiness esting upon others' shoulders, as happens sometimes in null.



WH are even worse with that system because you can only find people with the D-scanner or sitting on the WH exit watching for people using the overview to try and catch them before the cloak up/warp off. Neither of these things can be done very well while AFK.



You're only AFK until you see something happen on the client of the static scout alt, then you interact with it.

But you had to be AFK from it waiting for something to happen first, before, while doing other things, usually related to isk. And that's why not a player controlling a single-character would do it, it's boring most of the time and brings no revenue.
Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#892 - 2012-07-21 21:44:13 UTC
Mechael wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:


At the point where real money began to affect game balance beyond the basic admittance fee.


You honestly cannot see that someone who just spent isk is getting exactly the same advantage as someone paying real money for exactly the same thing?


They are obviously not getting exactly the same advantage. They spend money, and then an item is place in their hangar which would not have been there had they not spent money. The person who did not spend money does not get an item placed into his hangar in such a manner because he did not spend money. He has to buy said item with ISK. The problem isn't that you can buy things with ISK, the problem is that you can buy things with real money.


They spent money for a block of subscription time . The plex being an in-game "item" was just to simplify the exchange and take advantage of the in game market system to facilitate the transfers and eliminate the need for a dedicated system for the exchange of game time. Previously there was a process where one would post a WTB or WTS thread on the forum and then have to an out of game system to affect the transfer. The Plex eliminated the need for that second out of game system.

Once again you keep forgetting what a plex actually is. Which is a 30days of game subscription time.

Remember the main problem that the plex was created to address was RMT and it does so eloquently in a way that provides additional benefits beyond simply undermining the gold sellers.

I suppose you could call it a pay to win system if by win you mean we all win, CCP gets more money, broke people can play the game time starved people with RL cash can do fun stuff in the game and the RMTer cry about the hard cap on how much they can realistically charge plus have their potential market undercut by the fact that people can accomplish similar results without risking their accounts.

But that would be using a non-standard definition. Which I suppose wouldn't bother you since that's the same thing you're trying to do by redefining P2W in such a vague manner as to be void of any useful meaning.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#893 - 2012-07-21 21:44:41 UTC
Mechael wrote:
What I'm talking about is real money affecting the game in an unacceptable manner. For me, unacceptable is anything beyond a basic admittance fee.
…and the question remains: how is getting no particular advantage over those who don't pay “unacceptable”?

Quote:
Anyway, my problem is that you can spend real money beyond a base admittance fee in order to alter the game. In EVE, this happens through alts and PLEX.
Neither alter the game. One is just another character, which is what the game is built to have in it, and the other is an exquisitely economy-neutral financial instrument.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#894 - 2012-07-21 21:45:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
We'll see. I have faith that eventually the light will dawn.
Don't be silly. That would ruin their agenda.

At least we can be confident that they have by now thoroughly convinced any non-troll that there isn't any P2W in EVE since there are no advantages that can only be had by playing, and I suppose that's a benefit of all this.


Alas! the issue is far more complex

Plus, it could be said that EvE is Free-to-Play
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#895 - 2012-07-21 21:46:47 UTC
Mechael wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:
Mechael wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:



Except the part where they get more of said advantage over you by spending real cash. No matter how much ISK you are making through solely in-game means, you could be making more if you bought PLEX in addition to it. And that's not even getting into how useful alts are for making in-game money. Alts which must be paid for, by someone, with real money. Alts which alter the balance of the game.


Alts which I have without spending any extra RL cash.


Someone did. And someone, almost always at least two people, benefited from doing it. Again ... benefiting in-game from someone spending real money on the game.


That's called pay to play not pay to win.

And is kind of the whole point of why Plex is not pay to win. Because someone paid CCP for a game subscription not for isk. that another person is willing to pay isk for that game subscription does not make it pay to win.

Pay to win is when you can spend real life money to purchase advantages that players who do not pay can't get through normal game play. Such as say premium tanks in WOT that give a bonus to how much money you make. Or special ammo that can only be purchased with RL currency that is more accurate or does more damage than the ammo available through normal game play.

Hell the very existence of plex breaks your premise that alts somehow make the game "Pay to win" because those accounts can be paid for with in the game currency acquired through normal universally available game mechanics.



I think we're stuck on the pay to win term, as has been stated many time before. What I'm talking about is real money affecting the game in an unacceptable manner. For me, unacceptable is anything beyond a basic admittance fee. You seem to be talking about the ability to gain a unique advantage (such as non-transferable golden ammo) via real money. They're almost two completely different things. The second is a small subsection of the first, really.

Anyway, my problem is that you can spend real money beyond a base admittance fee in order to alter the game. In EVE, this happens through alts and PLEX. I consider it a bad thing. Apparently you (and some of the others in this thread) are okay with this (and you, of course, have every right to be okay with it.)


I realize that you are uncomfortable with EVE being a bit more sophisticated than most other games. We have multiple ways to gain an advantage of other players, and many more ways to end up at a disadvantage to other players.

This is how EVE is played, on many, many levels.

If a more simplistic game is more your taste that's fine, but don't complain about the basic complex nature of the game that you voluntarily chose to play.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#896 - 2012-07-21 21:47:19 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:



You're only AFK until you see something happen on the client of the static scout alt, then you interact with it.

But you had to be AFK from it waiting for something to happen first, before, while doing other things, usually related to isk. And that's why not a player controlling a single-character would do it, it's boring most of the time and brings no revenue.


While you are fiddiling with ammo and picking your next rat to die I will sneek through past your alt scout because you are distracted and not paying attention. This is the titanic flaw in your system and why any alliance woth their salt does not use this kind of intel system.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#897 - 2012-07-21 21:48:30 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:
Mechael wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:


At the point where real money began to affect game balance beyond the basic admittance fee.


You honestly cannot see that someone who just spent isk is getting exactly the same advantage as someone paying real money for exactly the same thing?


They are obviously not getting exactly the same advantage. They spend money, and then an item is place in their hangar which would not have been there had they not spent money. The person who did not spend money does not get an item placed into his hangar in such a manner because he did not spend money. He has to buy said item with ISK. The problem isn't that you can buy things with ISK, the problem is that you can buy things with real money.


They spent money for a block of subscription time . The plex being an in-game "item" was just to simplify the exchange and take advantage of the in game market system to facilitate the transfers and eliminate the need for a dedicated system for the exchange of game time. Previously there was a process where one would post a WTB or WTS thread on the forum and then have to an out of game system to affect the transfer. The Plex eliminated the need for that second out of game system.

Once again you keep forgetting what a plex actually is. Which is a 30days of game subscription time.

Remember the main problem that the plex was created to address was RMT and it does so eloquently in a way that provides additional benefits beyond simply undermining the gold sellers.

I suppose you could call it a pay to win system if by win you mean we all win, CCP gets more money, broke people can play the game time starved people with RL cash can do fun stuff in the game and the RMTer cry about the hard cap on how much they can realistically charge plus have their potential market undercut by the fact that people can accomplish similar results without risking their accounts.

But that would be using a non-standard definition. Which I suppose wouldn't bother you since that's the same thing you're trying to do by redefining P2W in such a vague manner as to be void of any useful meaning.


It seems like you're not understanding something here. Selling game time for ISK is indeed something that I do have a problem with. It's one thing to buy an account for a friend. It's another thing to trade account time for ISK. In my ideal game, the latter would never happen. How exactly you can realistically police such a thing is beyond me, but once again, we're talking about ideals.

Right now, RMT is just something that we have to deal with. It's not something that I believe that we should accept, though.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#898 - 2012-07-21 21:50:04 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Alas! the issue is far more complex
People that choose to have an advantage having an advantage over those who choose not to have an advantage is not a complex issue. It's just how they've chosen to play the game.

It's actually rather the opposite of “an issue” — call it a blessing if you like — that the game allows for such freedom of choice. It's particularly nice how there are so many different advantages to choose from, if you choose to go beyond “none”.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#899 - 2012-07-21 21:50:38 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:


I realize that you are uncomfortable with EVE being a bit more sophisticated than most other games. We have multiple ways to gain an advantage of other players, and many more ways to end up at a disadvantage to other players.

This is how EVE is played, on many, many levels.

If a more simplistic game is more your taste that's fine, but don't complain about the basic complex nature of the game that you voluntarily chose to play.


Why did you think I was complaining about the complexity of EVE? It seems to me like I was simply complaining about the effect of real money on the game, beyond the base admittance fee which is merely tolerated as opposed to accepted.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#900 - 2012-07-21 21:51:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:



You're only AFK until you see something happen on the client of the static scout alt, then you interact with it.

But you had to be AFK from it waiting for something to happen first, before, while doing other things, usually related to isk. And that's why not a player controlling a single-character would do it, it's boring most of the time and brings no revenue.


While you are fiddiling with ammo and picking your next rat to die I will sneek through past your alt scout because you are distracted and not paying attention. This is the titanic flaw in your system and why any alliance woth their salt does not use this kind of intel system.


Big flashy on-screen visual effects are so hard to miss.

Did you train Metal Gear Solid IV right after Courage Wolf V?